Tier fees increased by tax

That is the million lindenX17.5% question...

I don't think this can be right (at least in my case). If it is, then why are all my transactions with LL still in US$ rather than GB£ or Euros, and why does my CC charge £1 for overseas payments alongside every transaction?

Anyone else here that used to pay a charge for overseas transactions see this stop recently? I doubt they have.

How about this then; SL just became RL MKII or USAL?

And if you are going to quote me, don't misquote my quote by deleting everything I said and substituting your own words. That is a no no in any forum!

I have read all pages here, and I have nothing to add except that I feel sorry for those who recently bought an island, when LL clearly must have known what was up next. Not living in an EU country myself, I am kind of watching this trainwrecking happen from a distance, but I do not find it entertaining in any way whatsoever.

I am just as disappointed by how LL chose not to inform their customers in advance, before this move. C'est la vie, but still.

huh?

i just edited ur quote to long quote or else it will get to f`ing stretched and like i could give a flying fuck about forum rules atm and in the past as i`ve don`t this with more posts then u have as a total

Does anyone know why they moved their billing to Europe in the first place?

Still bored?

all i could think of setting a fixed sun and hope for a miracle while chatting with a resident about what has happend

Remeber, this is a firm that still - on a weekly basis - becomes unable to accept purchases from their customers (e.g. LindeX down, PayPal not connecting, etc.)

It is also a firm that can't manage to make a software release where the software released is what they intended to deliver (e.g. Yesterday).

It is also a firm that appeared honestly confused when the FBI came to talk to them about the use of SL as a money laundering facility.

I think it far, far too generous to assume that they even thought of the player tax consequences of moving to offshore billing. Note that they've been billing out of the U.K. service for at least a couple of months now and just today scrambled to get into compliance with the applicable laws. I expect they got a letter from some EU authority explaining their non-compliance within the last couple of days.

The conclusion that they are "extremely dumb" is pretty hard to reject.

Wrong. We pay in dollars. 195 dollars = 195 dollars doesn't it? Actually we often pay more because we get hit with foreign transaction fees.

LOLOLOL that`s absolutly LL`s business statement

Sorry all I posted this on another thread as when I did a search for VAT nothing came up wonders if its a conspiracy or a crap search engine or both, lol. Any way I have copied it here.
For those who think we have been riding some sort of gravy train in Europe why don't you study economics and currency exchange before you make uninformed inflammatory statements.

I was retiring to bed 6 hours ago and I saw an email from LL in my email client as I took a final look. Curious I thought, my next Island fee is not due I have not ordered any new ones for a while because of the crazy amount of land they have issued. Then I read the VAT bombshell. For those who don't know yet this is going to be a lot worse than the anti gambling shock.
VAT is an EU Tax charged to EU residents by their respective governments and applies to nearly all things except clothes, food, books and medicines. It also applies to just about every service.
It can be claimed back from the VAT authorities if you register for VAT, but............. and it is a big but, you can only claim it back if you are charging it to the end user (in my case the island residents). If I charge a Euro Tax to an American or a Brazilian or anyone of hundreds of countries that don't belong to the EU how long will they stay on my sims? In fact how long will other Europeans stay when they can move to other sims and not have to pay Tax (YET)?
If you are not European do not think this will not affect you. Should large numbers of Europeans leave and large numbers of sims are abandoned or sold cheap, the already disastrous prices of land will probably finally completely collapse. You also need to ask yourself exactly what is the next stage. Local State and Federal taxes being introduced in other countries? I do not believe that this move to tax some sl residents is going to stop here and if it does, is it fair that one section of SL residents pay a tax that other sections don't?
Ask yourself too, how many times is this called a virtual world ergo another world or country. We already, all of us pay a form of Linden tax in this world, if you own land you pay tier fees if you own a premium account you pay premium fees, if you change Lindens to US$ credits you pay around 12% currency change tax.
Today I will research VAT law in the UK and see what my liabilities will be. At the moment on 10 sims I make around 500US$ profit per month for 14 - 18 hours days, my increase in tier fees with 17.5% VAT will be just over 500US$. So I can work for the European Tax authorities and earn nothing or I can enjoy what little is left in sl and dispose of my islands or go back to RL.
Stay tuned in case their are some cheap islands going.

Can Lindens please explain why this has only just happened, being as VAT has been around since VAT has been around since long before Second Life, i have assumed VAT is inclusive as, i am sure, would any legal body.

So looks like there's going to be a land-dump...

People are annoyed because it was sudden and unannounced. Anyone in the EU who budgeted their SL tier is in problems because they're suddenly paying more when they never realised that could happen. What happens to the SL economy depends how (rather than if) this taxation is passed on to the customer within SL. Rents going up or islands getting sold, people tiering down or raising prices.

What other taxes are we about to get hit by? Will they start adding on income tax when we convert Ls to real currencies?

And why the hell am I paying a bank conversion fee for US$ payments on something that's also being taxed by the EU as a European product?

If VAT is charged, it must be stated. It has never previously been stated, so no legal body would believe it was being charged.

It may be one of a number of possibilities;

1. VAT is paid by the retailer, who normally passes the charge onto the customer - but is not obliged to. It may be that LL were simply absorbing the cost themselves. This is highly unlikely, but possible.

2. The Inland Revenue - or HM Customs and Excise, who now deal with VAT - have only just got onto LL and were not previously charging them, since until recently they did not have any real presence in the UK and therefore cannot be said to be "operating" a business in the UK. Now that billing is dealt with here, LL are deemed to be operating in the UK and liable for UK taxes. This seems more realistic.

They can still bill in US$ regardless of where their billing department is.




VAT, as I said above, is charged on a customer-by-customer basis. Non-EU customers are not paying this tax. It is the very fact that billing is now done in the UK (causing you to pay a bank charge) that has precipitated this change.

Anyone who thinks this is an overnight decision or the last couple of days week or month is sadly misinformed about VAT registration and liability.
For a company the financial size of LL and with a Chief Financial Officer (Zee Linden) who I suggest people research his RL profile, this decision must have been in the offing for at least 3 months to be able to set it up as well as it is.
Billing being able to introduce into the software the necessary routines to work out who is liable and who isn't for instance. Just one complicated and time consuming change. There would have been bank meetings and revenue office meetings and routines to apply and not even the slightest whisper from Linden Labs.

No doubt one of the Linden employees will read these posts, you know nothing of human behavior, of customer care and you only deserve my contempt for the way you have treated your European customers. Today I own 10 sims shortly I will own none it looks like, as on researching the VAT site we are starting to find our registration may be rejected as we do not meet their strict criteria. So if we cannot register we cannot charge, and therefore cannot claim back our own VAT payments that LL will take.
LL you deserve to lose your sl world over this latest debacle and if that is the final outcome of this move my sympathy goes out to all those who lose this fantastic world due to your callous behavior

will we get the weekly stipend with added VAT now?....would be a little compensation

better be an $56USD stipend!!!!

Not really. Any registered company that reclaims the VAT through having a VAT number is legally obliged to pay that same VAT directly to the government, and to declare that VAT charge to its own customers. the likes of Anshe and others in Europe will still have to pay VAT whether registered or not. The only question is whether they do it directly to their government's tax office or via LL.

Funny how all the US players whiniing about a a flat $2 charge for "foreign transaction fees" because Linden Lab uses a UK based bank (who are they using, anyone know?) don't seem too bothered about UK players being charged 17.5% for no good reason.

The US>UK currency conversion is irrelevant here - it's the principle of having to pay tax on something that there is no reason to be.

Broccoli

I definitely believe this has been discussed under the table for months.

I think everyone is upset because once again, they chose to make it a huge surprise.

My friend and I are ready to leave, we have both installed Hipihi world, only problem is we cant get it to run heh. But once we do, i`m hoping its run by people who can treat their customer base like human beings and not some daycare kiddies.

This is a great platform, ive had fun here, but this has really done it for me. It really has. Though this change has not affected me directly, I no longer want to log on to sl everyday wondering "Whats next".... It`s really unfortunate that such a great world has been created but we`re unable to say the same thing about the company behind it.

The only mistake Linden Lab made this time was announcing it on Thursday.

This would have made a great blog entry for about 5 minutes before leaving the office Friday, like they usually do.

Makes you wonder what they're saving that's even *worse* than this for the weekend...

Broccoli

Well, thats it for me.

In the UK we are charged to change money, now charged VAT for land. I'm selling mine and moving in to rented (US Owned) land!

We loose on in world time due to LL being based in the USA and taking the world down for maintenance during peak European play time, then loose out financially because LL is also based in the UK and has to charge VAT.

I know the vast majority of residents (who actually pay - free acount anyone?) are based in the USA, so perhaps LL will not really mind when they loose most of the fee paying European residents.

I was just about to buy more land - not a chance now, its getting to be an expensive hobby this.

KT

Once again they have me shocked. I`m surprised they didn`t save this for Friday.