"reasonable expectation of privacy"

SVC-3875 has now been assigned an internal Linden issue id, but not assigned to a developer as yet.

Let me be clear: I think that the basic capability of broadcasting voice chat within SL would be fine (even a benefit) if it were a configurable, publicly known, feature. This could be an easy way of putting together audio broadcasts of news and interviews, for example. Vivox, using SIP for stream signaling, should support that easily. I can see it being something enabled within the land media options, a platform-assigned chat URL being accessible there, with an icon at the top of the screen indicating to users that this sim broadcasts voice chat, etc..

I DO however, think that voice chat URLs should not be accessible external to SL, for play by anything capable of playing internet radio, as evidently they are now. Via SLIM, sure. Via Winamp, no. But, I respect the community's opinion on that, which is why I filed the Jira.

I also think that sim users should know if local chat is being broadcast, preferable via something as obvious as an icon in the status bar at the top of screen, similar to "scripts disabled", "voice enabled", etc..
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I'm not sure it's technically possible to fix this, by the way. It's similar to copybot... if you can get the information from the servers with one program, you can get it with another.

You notice he hasn't responded back to this?

And for the record, I did call him a douchebag lol.

And Creepy.

Well, maybe it's not THAT much like copybot .... unlike textures, the streams are started up via a signaling protocol. One way of solving this would be for the Vivox servers to require authentication (as SL, not as a particular avatar) in order to access a stream URL. Authentication is an optional feature of the protocol they're already using.
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Authentication won't help, because any authentication the client performs can be reverse-engineered and duplicated.

the login to the SIP protocol on Vivox is not accessible by winamp, windows media player or other player for that matter - there is no way to just "connect" and listen - it is a duplex communication - media players do not support duplex communication, therefore it is not accessible.

check the "active speakers" list, it shows who is in the spatial channel - anyone with voice enabled, can (on their own computer) "listen", "relay", "broadcast" or even "record" public spatial voice, how would you if it is happening and know who ?

how would authentication help if you already have a voice account with Vivox ?

currently, the voice service from Vivox provided to LL for use its in SL virtual world has further capabilities besides plain voice.
it has the capability to use video, pictures as well as text chat.
as it appears, the viewer does not utilize these additional features.
it is possible to generate new forms in C++/visual basic with the available source code from the official viewer to utilize these features.
furthermore, i should say that connecting to the provided voice service from Vivox requires an account, that account is your avatar name and password, it is hash encoded and sent to Vivox at login to SL.
connecting to the server is in SIP protocol which means it is duplex communication.
media players cannot cannot to the stream as they are not duplex and cant provide the hashed account details in order to connect.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I posted?

This statement is not even wrong.

If you were deaf, standing in a room full of people talking, and you knew they were talking, and they knew you were deaf... Wouldn't it frustrate you a bit?

Granted, I can turn voice on if I wish. I just don't like being forced to when people I'm with refuse to use the keyboard even when I indicate I'm off ears.

It is not easy for me to tell who is saying what, especially if there are voice users hot-mic'd without a headset, and when someone speaks, five different white dots light up (not even mentioning the horrible echo this causes). I also have a harder time keeping up with a conversation if it is in both text AND voice. Lastly, the use of voice generally precludes my ability to listen to and enjoy the music stream where I am, or I have to cam to the center of where all the voice speakers are because the voice audio is spacialized.

...and then there's that.

obviously you might need to read the documentation a bit more before you come up with these conclusions.
it is authenticated.
a "hashed" version of your avatar name and password is sent to the vivox server as login details before you are allowed to connect.
therefore, "authentication" as you put it, is useless in this scenario.
encryption might be what you meant, but even that would be useless as well.

neither.
if you read the post i made above, you will see why.

Oh yes... you're definitely agreeing, whether or not you realize it.

Which means anyone that does open active speakers, and sees your avatar name listed... with no avatar present can AR you for a possible exploit and violation of the ToS and CS?


Because for a while it was possible to hide an avatar completely before voice and it was Ar'able as an exploit (no icon on map, or detectable)

no, because the avatar name is listed in the active speakers list, its not an exploit, you can lose connection to SL and still retain connection to Vivox, therefore, have voice presence and show it in active speakers, but no avatar SL presence.


thats understandable as there is no indication of "anyone" there.

you forget when someone disconnects from sl, the voice chat terminates shortly thereafter as well. (usually less than a minute)

When your name does not disappear after 1min then you are a hidden avatar or utilizing an exploit in the eyes of most.

That is the problem, you have stated you are using a means to access the voice feeds for SL in a manner that bypasses the standard client requirement of an avatar being present on the sim.

And you are bound by the ToS since as you so nicely put it: You need a SL login to do it... meaning you have to agree to the ToS on account creation.

no use discussing this with you.
think what you want.
it has been tested and proven in the field.
you can lose connection to SL which is a completely different server than the voice for Vivox.
i am not talking about disconnecting from SL either.

actually I am partially deaf, and getting worse as time moves on.

I have experienced a situation that could be considered similar.

I have been in a room full of people, that all spoke a language I did not speak, so I did not understand them, and may as well had been deaf. And yes, they knew the only language I understand is English.

I am not saying voice is the answer for everyone, however I just do not understand why the non voice users want it removed, Just don't use it, simple enough.

see you say this...

"Granted, I can turn voice on if I wish. I just don't like being forced to when people I'm with refuse to use the keyboard even when I indicate I'm off ears."

now the same can be said in reverse... here is a scenario for you...

someone indicates that they are on voice, however they do not wish to type, as it is painful to do so (arthritis, broken finger, whatever), so by you refusing to use voice, you are putting them in the same situation that you are put in when folks refuse to type.


I am neither pro voice or anti voice, it is a part of SL, so I accept it as it is. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I do not. Just like the keyboard, sometimes I use it, sometimes I do not.

*shrug*

I would not even consider removing either option from SL though, as both have their pro's and con's.

READ FOR CONTENT.

We want to be informed when people are using voice.

We have been asking for this since before voice was implemented.

We have been ignored and rebuffed over this *simple* request.

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND WHY WE ARE GETTING A LITTLE TESTY?

In such a situation, I would have no problem putting on my headphones and turning on voice. I can still use my keyboard, and they can use voice. But even if I refused to accommodate them, they would still be able to "hear" what I say. It would be I who would lose out on half the conversation.

The pros and cons of voice in SL have been debated over and over again - not seeing anything new...

However, has anyone noticed that the OP asked originally about expectation of privacy, and whether it violates any TOS, and, after being told that what (s)he was doing was plain creepy and wrong, whether it violates the TOS or not, his "girlfriend" comes on to defend him, and since then he hasn't really continued the discussion about the original topic at all, instead just throwing up technical stuff about how it is done.

Refusing is different than being physically unable to comply. I agree on 'refusing'. The presentation on 'How to communicate with people with hearing loss in rl and sl' that I did last Friday, and am repeating tomorrow (it was a big crowd, surprisingly, they asked for a repeat) is done in text and translated to voice for those who cannot see/read the text. I do agree that accomodation should go both ways.

We've looked into this issue with Vivox during the last few days. Thanks for the abundant detail, everyone.

Voice chat was not really hacked. The original poster was not able to hear any conversations that his avatar couldn't already access normally and as expected in world. S/he could not, for example, hear a private conversation between two other Residents (either two Residents in peer-to-peer conversation, or Residents speaking in a private parcel channel).

If you're ever in doubt about who can or cannot hear, and/or be heard in, a particular voice conversation, the Active Speakers list is the definitive source for this information. You can see the list by clicking on the button immediately to the left of the Talk button (the button with little chat bubbles on it).

Even though the "hack" appears to make listeners disappear and become "spies," the original poster is just hanging the Viewer and making the avatar disappear (since the sim no longer knows about the avatar). The voice channel, however (as shown in Active Speakers) very much knows about the "disappeared" avatar's presence.