Should they just go ahead and open the General Forum back up?

All-in-all, this thread is a solid reason why a GD forum is a bad idea. Just change some names and this is 2005/2006 all over again and precisely why the old GD was closed in the first place. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

And before anyone chimes in with "but with moderation it would be ok" we had moderation last time and everyone just bitched about it. Someone opened Second Citizen because they didn't like the moderation over here and eventually SC imploded under the weight of unmoderated drama fests and sociopathic behavior.

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = A**hat

I voted Yes to a GD because I simply think all forums should have one. I have no idea how this would affect RA - I don't have a crystal ball. I can only assume that it would clear it a bit, get some of the off topic threads out of the way. Answers might take a little more time to be answered, as less people will pop in, but I'm betting they will still be answered in a timely fashion.

I still want a general forum. People are not all the same, and we are going to argue from time to time, but I'd prefer that it not be in the middle of a help forum. I LIKE answering questions and helping people, but it's getting more and more difficult with the way these boards are going. I won't claim to be blameless in the deterioration - I'm only human - but I'd like it if RA got back to a less 'scary' place for people seeking assistance.

On topic:

If the GD forum is opened up, it would be as bad is the RA forum is now - and it *is* bad - not all bad, but it's often bad. It would likely be closed down. The reason is that the same people would use it - people who are often confrontational when they don't like something.

The only reason I can come up with for the RA forum not being shut down is because LL wants to have a place where residents can help residents.

It would be nice to have a forum dedicated to that, like this one used to be (before my time here). Unfortunately, the RA forum is no longer a dedicated place for that. Instead it's become a mix of that, frivolities, and frequent confrontations. It just isn't a dedicated Resident Answers forum any more.

So my answer to the original question is no. Opening up the GD forum would be a bad thing - unless it is actively moderated. A better solution, imo, is to actively moderate this RA forum, and turn it back into what it's supposed to be.

A hypothetical example of how it should work here, and how it goes wrong, is...

Somebody starts a thread to ask if there are any legal uses of camping. Someone posts that all camping is legal. Someone else with an axe to grind makes a statement about how camping negatively affects things, and so it kicks off. The OP didn't ask for an argument about camping, the thread is derailed, and a confrontation starts up.

What should happen is, the question is asked, someone says that it's all legal, someone else respects that view but puts an opposing view, and the first responder respects the opposing view. No confrontation. No derailment. A good thread for the OP.

This strikes me as a very insightful analysis of the apparant history of SL's GD forum. I think that the events of the last month or so have shown that, without strict moderation, "general discussion" threads will at times swamp RA. As Victoria points out, this was completely predictable. Also, the experiment of having time-intensive strict enforcement of RA rules in the absence of a GD forum was tried, and was simply too traumatic for all concerned.

I think that it would be good to have a GD forum again. I think that it would have a fair amount of bile and spleen, and I don't think that anyone should be surprised or lose sleep over that. I would be completely comfortable with LL moderating it lightly if at all, and putting unbelievably obvious disclaimers on it ... to the effect of, "Abandon hope all ye who enter here". I do think RA would become a more uniformly helpful place.

I entered this thread late, and reading back a few pages, let me just say that if anyone has a list of 8 clique members who may or may not be making abusive (or something) posts, I would LOVE to see it. *points to PM button*

I won't pass its contents on to anyone else in any form ... it's just that it's Monday and I could use a chuckle!

*sprinkles semisweet chocolate bits over the forum*

Let's have fun, be nice to each other, and eat our chocolate. OK?

Thats where I disagree --

I think that this stuff is going to go on regardless unless Moderation is stepped up ...

Therefore moving a lion's share of it over to General Discussion would help Resident Answers.

Basically I am saying better in a forum labeled for it than one thats not.

Oh yes they did find the clarifications clear. Nobody with even half a brain could have failed to find them clear. They, including you, chose to continue the attacks and insults for their own personal purposes.

That's exactly it. Who cares if the GD goes horribly wrong or not. At least RA will be better _because_ of the GD's existence.

Anyhoo, it's out of our hands, really.

I am basically working under the assumption that the current level of Moderation is what we are going to have.

Under the current level of Moderation .. I see Resident answers staying largely General Discussions as it has been for some time.

Under current levels of moderation .. I think we would be better off with a General Discussion forum so that a lot of the General Discussion would take place there instead.

I am under no illusions that opening a General Discussion board will make people post different kinds of posts. I just think they will post a lot of their posts that are objectionable on the other board.

Would Resident Answers still get some general discussion and derailed questions? Probably. But less than it does now.

I haven't read through all 18 pages of this thread, so if what I'm about to say has already been said & debated, my apologies

Its a catch-22 in re-opening General:

On the one hand, people *want* a General discussion area. Linden may want us to take our social community to 3rd party forums, but they only seem to want that half-heartedly as evidenced by their (lack of) moderation. Short of enforcing gestapo-style moderation, people are going to have their general conversations here whether Linden likes it or not.

On the other hand, Linden has shown repeatedly over the years that they aren't willing to devote sufficient resources to moderation - which resulted in the anarchy we had before with the General Forums, and prompted their eventual closure. We're getting a small taste of that with the limited/haphazard moderation in Resident Answers.

There may be different people today, but the conversations repeat themselves. When you put a bunch of people together on a social forum, a community inevitably develops. Without good moderation, that community will eventually eat itself.

The best scenerio is re-opening the general forums with active Liason moderation. Without that level of moderation, however - the next best option is to close these forums for casual discussion firmly, and allow 3rd party forums to fill that void. Anything in-between is unfair to the inevitable community that develops here, who will be once again traumatized by its closure once Linden decides they can't stomach the drama they inadvertently helped to create.

I don't think it can be said any better. Either way LL HAS to make a decision. Leave it as is, which personnaly is fine with me, I can ignore anything that bothers me, or acticely moderate themselves, ResMods don't cut it. Especially if RA is to be strictly managed, GD or not, it would take a dedicated consistency that I don't think can be expected from a Volunteer.

The tenants have turned the apartment building into a Frat House. And the Landlord has been absent. But their name is over the door, and it's becoming an eyesore. Fix it or evict everyone and tear it down. Some people here really do want to see this forum thrive. By doing nothing, LL is giving those peole The Finger, in my opinion. And if you keep it open, allow All residents to at least read it.

You don't think that publically mocking someone is insulting to them? Streuth! Maybe intellect really is an issue.

Allow me to educate you a little:
When two people are arguing or discussing something from opposing views, they are *both* doing it because they believe they are right, and they *both* believe the other person to be wrong.

A little more education:
When somebody writes something, they know exactly what they mean. If they need to subsequently write, "you misunderstood what I wrote. I actually meant this", they are right, and the other person is wrong to continue believing their own misunderstanding. The fact that you (and others) prefered to continue with your own misunderstanding, meant that you were wrong. It's really very simple.

When an argument flares up, the wise man quenches it with silence.

I don't think increased moderation is in the cards.

Would it be better to have a General Discussion forum that would be closed?

Or Resident Answers which gets closed?

I have a naiive glimmer of hope that Linden might actually learn from their previous mistakes, and tag some Liasons for moderation. (I know, I know.... put down the crack pipe, Travis )

Short of that, though - yes, I think we're better off in the long term with closure - of both RA & General. None of the 3rd party forums get as much activity as the official Linden forums do - and its hard not to think that if these forums didn't exist, much of that traffic would have to go *somewhere*.

In a way, the very presence of these 'Official' forums as a social community limits the ability for 3rd party forums to gain a foothold. Some have, like SLU, due to their longevity. But if you look at the many 3rd party forums out there: SLU is the exception, not the rule.

Again, closing these forums is by no means my first choice. But the present state of keeping these forums in a sort of limbo between defacto-allowed general conversation & it being not allowed at the whim of a resident moderator - seems worse than the act of closure itself.

Sort of like pulling off a band-aid slowly or quickly, I guess. It seems to me that Linden has preferred to go the slow route - which sets up the community that lives here for a very unpleasant fall if closure is indeed the inevitable result of too much drama.

It was pretty mild mocking, done purely in response to you stating that we were idiots for not falling into line when you 'clarified' your statement on that other thread...for the record, reiteration and clarification are NOT the same thing. Saying the same thing over and over is unlikely to convince anyone.

Also, my IQ is quite healthy, so you can take your patronizing tone and stick it where SL shoes tend to wander.

I cant see a Social Game like Second Life having no forums for Residents ..

It seems so backwards.

To preach tolerance and freedom of expression and then not bother having any on their website .. Just weird.

Of course a "platform" claiming to be the future of the 3D web having a barely functional "2D" website seems warped beyond comprehension.

I also never understood who they didn't just give the volunteer Moderators the last name "Linden" to give them a little more clout.

Well, there's really no reason why 3rd party forums can't fill that capacity. SL is based on user-created content, why not user-created forum communities? But yes, I do see the irony



No doubt & I completely agree. Not just for the clout reason - but for some reason, one's resident reputation ends up suffering after a stint as a resident moderator. That's not very fair for Linden to put residents in that situation, and wouldn't be all that difficult for Linden to fix.

Actually unless they endorse ONE site its still not going to be as good as an official forums.

And it will just confuse people new to Second Life they are not going to be looking for a 3rd Party Forum in most cases (unless they are forum veterans from other places)

It think that if you really wanted to make a 3rd Party forum viable you would need to make it so that it was one clear to go to site which was linked DIRECTLY from the main Second Life site.


I still think its totally ridiculous. They are a damn internet-based company they should be able to manage something as relatively simple as Forums.

There is a little irony in that a forum war similar to the one involving Colette and Phil primarily, was responsible for the birth of the "Clique that may not be a Clique depending on who you ask" (tm), when Colette *hmmmm is there a pattern here?* and Chris were banging heads over McCarthyism, among other things. An impromptu gathering was held on my back porch, we all saw no one is as big a jerk as they appeared and the rest is virtual history. Brings a tear to my eye.

Oh, so you DID see at least one clarification. I thought you claimed not to have seen any of them (a couple of pages back).

In the midst of a feeding frenzy, which is pretty much what it was, even a mild mocking isn't mild. Mocking is mocking, and it's insulting.

Now, you may still disagree with me, but imo, any native english speaker, who doesn't understand a few common words of english, no matter how many times it is explained to them, comes under the heading of "obtuse" (Colette's prefered word), or "thick as two short planks". The word "idiots" readily springs to mind for people who, in spite of very clear clarifications (not repetitions, as you wrongly think), prefer to continue the attacks, based on their original misunderstanding. You said in another thread or post that you are guilty of something because you are human. Let me tell you... when a bunch of people go on an all out attack against an individual, and won't back off even after the cause of the attack is clearly shown to have been a misunderstanding on their part, the person on the receiving end is human too, and will react in a human way. So don't talk to me about my "idiots" reaction. YOU and the others caused it, and you caused it for your own personal ends, and not for anything to do with any truth.

I don't think that anyone can deny that I have some SL knowledge that is helpful to people but, since that thread, I rarely post anything helpful. I decided that the people here simply aren't worth helping, and I sincerely regret having posted some of the things that I've written - especially about the new search. People like you, who sometimes treat others are targets, rather than as people, screw it up for everyone.

Don't think that I am singling you out. I'm not. You are only one of them, and not the worst by any means. It's just that you are the one who is replying, and defending what you did.

Sorry, this place is no longer safe for small creatures, or for anyone who doesn't get off on name-calling or petty bickering.

I have no desire to take any more of this negativity into my consciousness. It's actually quite sickening to witness.

To me the only argument that's been proven is that this forum needs some consistent form of moderation.

"And then there were seven..."

I rarely use the word "obtuse" but thanks ...

She's the only one replying because your rant is about another thread entirely.

That argument sailed already and the thread is long over. If you weren't done go necropost it.

Oh, sure: I send them to bed without dinner, and then you come in and give them candy. With mixed messages like that, no wonder our Travis became a crackhead.

To the point: I've been swayed to favor GD by some of the arguments here. It's not going to make RA any worse as long as we're permitted some wit and fun in the course of answering real resident questions, and it may well pull some of the distractions from this forum.

Harboring no illusions here: a GD won't be what I really want, which is a web-accessible site where community and communities can form, deepen, and grow. At least, it can't be that without moderation of superhuman patience, prowess, and power. And any such moderator should spend their time solving World Peace, not fixing the SL Forums.

(Of course, in any case, it's all up to Our Hosts. One feels a bit silly, really, carefully weighing the options, when any options may or may not exist.)

lol, I'm one of THEM...dun dun da!

Colette, quoting him defeats the purpose of my Ignore list!