About welfare and the unemployment rate in SL?
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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09-24-2005 15:41
musicteacher, SL is not a game. SL is more like a 3D eBay. LL provides people with a "3D website" where they put their stuff up for sale. If you dont want to spend money, and apparently you arent too keen on earning it, why the heck are you here? You're never going to have any fun in SL unless you buy or earn money. This isn't going to change. The historical trend has always been downward. In Beta, people started with L$3500!
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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09-24-2005 15:42
From: Memir Quinn All you want is something for nothing and you've been making that extremely clear to every tom, dick and harry and their sister and their sister's brother's dog since LL announced its intentions of limiting the stipend bonuses.
I guess you figure if you raise a big enough stink and open enough threads (thread after thread 'hotline' query after 'hotline' query) something will change or maybe that you're just really trying convince yourself that you aren't behaving in a completely self-centred manner.
Reminds me very much of a petulant toddler stamping their feet and threatening to hold their breath till something changes.
Good luck with that. I think you have me confused with someone else. I've started poll threads to try to better understand what the members of SL think. I've posted questions to LL in the hotline trying to find out how LL stands on all this so as to better make personal decisions regarding SL, and I've tried to explain a different point of view that some content creators may not have considered. I don't get something for nothing. I pay $35 a month for my membership and tier feel. I never posted an objection the the elimination of the rating bonuses, I expressed a concern that this was part of a trend towards eliminating or reducing stipends beyond a livable level for paying premium members. The hostility in your post is very evident and is very close to being a personal attack. I would have been happy to address you privately if you had private messages activated in your account, but unfortunately I am forced to address you publically. Throwing insults does not make me or anyone want to listen to your position which is why I've been careful not to throw cruel insults. Any time I say "I don't understand...." It's because I'm hoping that someone can in a polite and intelligent manner explain why...if I still don't understand I will respond. It's called debate. I admit I overreacted to the rating bonus cut because so much talk was going around that "stipends are next" You can call me selfish if you want but everyone in SL has their own personal stake in SL so in a way they are all selfish to some extent. What makes my stake any less reasonable than yours or anyone elses? I do not envy LL, it seems like a lose lose situation. They created this virtual world, they did not place value on the $L that they created though yet they are being asked to make decisions that affect that value. How do they help one group without hurting another? How do they change long stading policies without upsetting members? A reduction in stipends would make the content creators happy but make the non creators upset. A raise in stipends woud make the consumer happy but the creators upset. No change is making the creators more and more upset as the value drops. I do not think there is a fair way to handle this situation. Someone will end up hurt in the end. I know what my personal stake is and what decision would keep me enjoying SL, but I do not wish to see others hurt to do that. I also do not want to see myself hurt either. So I suppose the best option is to go with the LL flow and take the punches as they come. Is there something wrong with the fact that I did not know you could exchange $L for $US and vice versa until June? (didn't visit the forums much then at all, only for questions) I honestly wish I could go back to that. I resent that I'm chastised for enjoying SL the way I have for a year and a half when I was unaware that there was any other way to do so until recently. I resent that I am made to feel guilty because people feel that they are cheated because I won't buy $L from others through GOM. I'm sure they resent that there are so many people that are ignorant to that side of SL as well. From: Dark Korvin The problem is that you are paying the wrong people. If you are paying Linden Labs for the money, why is Linden Labs giving you the ability to buy goods they did not produce. The money paid to get a stipend only gets to the content creator if Linden Labs balances the economy correctly. GOM has information that suggests they haven't balanced the economy correctly over the last year. The issue is getting those $US you spent to the people you buy from. If you buy upload fees with the stipend then there is no problem. Linden Labs sold you the $L in advance to use their upload service. It is when you buy resident made goods that suddenly the person creating the good is not recieving their pay in $US. They can go to the GOM market, but since the economy is not being balanced, the $L you gave them is not worth as much as it was when they set the price. It is the same effect as Linden Labs selling $L on the GOM market that they printed for free. Now I would like to thank Dark Korvin for his ability to keep emotion out of his response and explain the flaw in my thinking without being insulting. We all should strive to be as clear headed as he. I will admit there is a whole behind the scenes monetary thing that I do not understand and posts like yours Dark help me to understand that side of SL. I still think that by getting the $L to the creators is doing my part. If I hoarded my stipends and then sold them when they got high enough that would be one thing, but I spend them on creators instead. I leave it up to those who want to buy $L to get the $US to the creators. I again don't see a solution to this unless LL does away with $L and only allows purchases in game with $US. Or LL could buy the stipend money from the players with $US and return it as stipens as $L, but that would not be in LL best interest. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong in this....it all just is!
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Cheyenne Marquez
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 940
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09-24-2005 15:51
From: musicteacher Rampal Nobody is right and nobody is wrong in this....it all just is! musicteacher Rampal, there is a right in all of this...the right answer is ingrained in basic economic principles (ie., laws of supply and demand).
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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09-24-2005 15:57
From: Eggy Lippmann musicteacher, SL is not a game. SL is more like a 3D eBay. LL provides people with a "3D website" where they put their stuff up for sale. If you dont want to spend money, and apparently you arent too keen on earning it, why the heck are you here? You're never going to have any fun in SL unless you buy or earn money. This isn't going to change. The historical trend has always been downward. In Beta, people started with L$3500! I'm beginning to understand the whole 3D Ebay thing, however this is not what was sold to me when I joined. I came here as a place to re-group with friends from another game that failed. I mainly do just "virtually" stand around and talk to my friends in-game. Occasionally I try to build something, post it in the new products forum, and hold my breath waiting to see if anyone wants it. Do I feel insulted if they don't buy it, no because I had fun making it. I'm not keen on having to put in work hours dancing in some club (which my hubby would never allow anyway). I'm not keen on spending more than $35/ month. And honestly I only make 1 or 2 purchases a week if that. I'm here for the social aspect, and I'd either do just fine with what I've got as stipends are reduced or I'd figure out how to make what I need. I have plenty of fun attending events, and talking with my friends and enjoy SL just fine. I did not join 3D ebay, I joined a game. If that's not what it is then I joined under false pretenses. Origionally the group I came here with our shut down game had a vision of rebuilding our lost world here. Well that project has been completed as far as it will and the other aspects of SL have broken most of us up. Does that answer your question? I came here to replace what was lost and found new friends as well. I found it cool that I could afford things here that I could only dream about in RL. I understand that people create those things and want to be paid for it. Did you all coming here looking for a way to make money? I may be in the minority then and apologize for any offense my ignorance may be causing. If buying content with my stipend is tabu, then I suppose I should leave SL, because for the 1 1/2 years i've been doing so it's never been suggested to me that I should have to work to a SL job or buy my $L from others in order to purchase from others until recently. Perhaps LL needs to adjust their marketing if this is the intent. Then again LL did not sell SL to me, my friends from the other game did.
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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09-24-2005 16:12
From: musicteacher Rampal If buying content with my stipend is tabu, then I suppose I should leave SL, because for the 1 1/2 years i've been doing so it's never been suggested to me that I should have to work to a SL job or buy my $L from others in order to purchase from others until recently. You do this a lot... no one has said spending your stipend is wrong, or tabu(sic). I have asked you stop pretending it's a real addition to the sytem, however. Your use of SL is valid. Your complaint that it may come to an end (as unlikely as it seems at this point) in favor of a workable system, however, is not. From: musicteacher Rampal Perhaps LL needs to adjust their marketing if this is the intent. Then again LL did not sell SL to me, my friends from the other game did. They do need to change thier marketing. And I and several others have said this. SL is the game that never ends - in theory, it would never get boring for all the small content providers able to get new ideas and variants of ideas into the sytem quickly. If SL somehow manages to guess correctly at every turn of the market SL would become the gaming medum, as well as a new educational medium, and a sales medium, and a support services medium... But it requires the economic system to be viable.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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09-24-2005 17:14
From: Eggy Lippmann musicteacher, SL is not a game. SL is more like a 3D eBay. LL provides people with a "3D website" where they put their stuff up for sale. If you dont want to spend money, and apparently you arent too keen on earning it, why the heck are you here? You're never going to have any fun in SL unless you buy or earn money. This isn't going to change. The historical trend has always been downward. In Beta, people started with L$3500! I wouldn't go that far... but whining that "I don't have any money... and I don't want to do anything to get money!" doesn't sit well with me.
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Alexa Hope
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2004
Posts: 670
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09-25-2005 03:09
If I understand this correctly, content creators are unhappy because some residents only buy their items using their stipend. So they want to win twice, for us to buy their items and then buy their L$ on GOM. I have never bought money on GOM and quite frankly never will. Not because I can't afford it - quite frankly it is no-one else's business what I do with my money.
There are very few unique and original creators in SL, most are more of the same and if some were unhappy and decided to quit creating, I don't see a big hole in the market.
No matter what SL is, a platform or a game, each individual will have different reasons for being here and it is their choice how they play it, preferably without bullying tactics from the creators.
Alexa
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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09-25-2005 03:11
From: Alexa Hope If I understand this correctly, content creators are unhappy because some residents only buy their items using their stipend. Then you don't understand. I've yet to hear any of the content creators claim that. And I've refuted it several times.
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Alexa Hope
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2004
Posts: 670
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09-25-2005 04:00
Jillian
There are people asking for a "free lunch" - and if you are trying to convince me that your payment to LL does anything to compensate me for my time and effort, then you're among them.
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Jillian - what does this mean? What more than the money you get from selling your items do you want?
Alexa
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Hiroland resident
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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09-25-2005 04:14
From: Alexa Hope Jillian There are people asking for a "free lunch" - and if you are trying to convince me that your payment to LL does anything to compensate me for my time and effort, then you're among them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jillian - what does this mean? What more than the money you get from selling your items do you want? Alexa It means I want honesty. I want everyone to really understand the economic system, and not try to claim that paying one party for one set of services does anything for any other party. I still consider the stipends a totally valid and acceptable way to play in SL. As I've said several times. Are you trying to play a game of "gotcha" with that second question? Becasue it's quite unfair and rather deeply insulting considering the content of your prior post.
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Alexa Hope
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2004
Posts: 670
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09-25-2005 04:26
No - it was just that I based some of my first post on that quote of yours and I thought it was a relevant question. There was no question of my insulting you, I genuinely wanted to know.
For everyone successful person in SL like you Jillian there are hundreds who have tried to create and make a business and failed, me included. I have spent hour after hour making plant textures and plants but with so many well established creators in that field, I have never managed to get a foothold. I have pretty much given up now, discouraged.
I just wanted you to know that I hadn't just sat back and not attempted to create anything since I have been in SL. I created the only thing I could but obviously not good enough.
Alexa
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Hiroland resident
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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09-25-2005 04:56
From: Alexa Hope No - it was just that I based some of my first post on that quote of yours and I thought it was a relevant question. There was no question of my insulting you, I genuinely wanted to know. For everyone successful person in SL like you Jillian there are hundreds who have tried to create and make a business and failed, me included. I have spent hour after hour making plant textures and plants but with so many well established creators in that field, I have never managed to get a foothold. I have pretty much given up now, discouraged. I just wanted you to know that I hadn't just sat back and not attempted to create anything since I have been in SL. I created the only thing I could but obviously not good enough. Alexa I'm not judging you or anyone else. I just know that it's nessesary for everyone to understand what SL is, and how its economy works. Especially now that we're at something of a crossroads, as individual product sales are not going to be enough content to hold people's attention anymore - projects of interest are going to require a great deal more land to pull off becasue they will need far more prims and script resources, and if we limit these projects to those who can philanthropically outright pay for the land tier and give away the results, then SL is doomed. The mistake of giving away so much for free in the form of event subsidies and dwell-system gaming is going to manifest itself now as a resistance to paying for these more involved products. Not that I blame anyone for resisting such a change, really. I like free stuff too. But without a method of getting real-world money into the hands of developers, very few are going to be able to to manage to develop the more involved entertainment, and without incentive to do so, who's to say even those with the resources to pull it off will bother? SL's survival and growth now depends on a healthy economy that includes a method for turning a developer's effort into cash. This will pay for the land (funding LL) and act as a strong incentive to the developer to create these more complex entertainments. In turn this makes for a far more interesting world/game for people to play in. But that does require that the majority of the consumers in SL be willing to spend a few RL bucks on buying L$. I belive we can get away with plenty of folks not ever buying L$, and I'd prefer that LL also make economic adjustments so that there is always a stipend for those playing in SL strictly as recreation. I admit I've grown somewhat impatient with those who do not see how this system is evolving. I am fairly regularly accosted in-world by people deamnding I give them one of my aircraft without even offering L$ in trade so my nerves on this subject are a shade frayed. It's frustrating to be called greedy when I've been operating ant a loss since the L$'s value has dropped, and I've refused to raise prices despite that fact. It's rather disheartening to be called "a joke" becasue I've been gauche enough to point out economic realities involved in the functioning of SL. I hope you can pardon any gruffness on my part.
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Cheyenne Marquez
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 940
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09-25-2005 08:01
Ok, I'm no economy rocket scientist. Matter of fact, far far from it (I'm terrible in math, yuk). So maybe I can try and explain basic economic principles, and the law of supply and demand, in laymen's terms so that others on my same level will be able to understand. What LL provides is nothing more than a chatroom with landscape. Without content creators to provide everything else in the SL universe, you may as well pay $24.95 and "socialize" in an AOL chatroom. But, In order for these content creators to "develop" the SL universe, they have to have incentive. What is their incentive you might ask? I'm not in their mind but I would venture to say it's a combination of fun, satisfaction that others appreciate their work, and money; with money being the overwhelming factor. Now that we've established money as the major motivator for the vast majority of content creators,... who pays them? If not you and me? Then who? The answer is nobody. If creators don't get paid, then they don't create and as mentioned earlier, SL is nothing more than a chatroom with landscape. If we pay, they create and SL evolves into a place worth living, playing, and socializing in. The better we pay, the greater the inflow of talent into SL, the better world we'll have. We get what we pay for. It is a system naturally driven by basic economic principles and the laws of supply and demand. The great thing about SL though, is that you don't have to pay. All of the basic necessities in SL are FREE! We can live in SL and carry a zero L$ balance all year long. So if you don't want to pay, you don't have to and still socialize and have fun. If this is what you want, then have fun, you can do it  It's starts getting rather hairy, however, when we want L$ to spend on all of the beautiful things SL has to offer. But guess what, those beautiful things were created by others, not SL mind you, but others, who deserve compensation of some sort for their time and effort. Let's not demean these talented content creators by expecting them to develop our world for free. Put yourself in their shoes, would you not find this a bit insulting?
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
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09-25-2005 12:12
this won't ever happen, they would need to pay the users minimum wage or risk lawsuit.
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Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
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Kim Anubis
The Magician
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 921
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09-25-2005 12:28
Music encoded digitally on a disk is exactly as real as a Cubey Terra plane encoded digitally on a disk; exactly as real as a pair of *PREEN* panties; as real as a Templar Botworks robot. Exactly as real: no more and no less. To create these things, artists must learn real skills and to use real tools. The soundwaves you manipulate are exactly as real as the lightwaves 3D artists manipulate; they are not more real than the code that a scripter writes for a SL plane or robot or pet. You buy lined sheets on which to compose music. Builders in SL buy server space (parcels) on which to create objects. You buy a musical instrument to play. Builders in SL buy Photoshop and Poser and many other software packages that cost as much as a good guitar or even a piano. Those are a couple of the expenses involved in creating art, along with time . . . lots and lots of time. The best musicians, visual artists, coders, dancers, writers -- the best at anything -- put in countless hours and days and weeks and months and years to hone their craft. In order to afford all that time, and the tools and materials, an artist must be paid. If artists aren't paid, they work at Burger King instead of creating art, and the world is poorer for it. The work we do here, the artists of SL, has value, or you wouldn't be here spending time and effort arguing to preserve your stipend so you could buy it. The problem with counting on stipends only, with no RL cash injected into the system through someplace like GOM, is that it has no backing. It has no actual value. It is only Monopoly money until someone's willing to trade it for RL cash. If LL gives everyone enough money as a stipend so that they can buy all the stuff they want with stipends alone, and no one ever goes to GOM . . . all the artists here go pretty much uncompensated. By reducing the stipend, LL is trying to encourage members to inject RL cash into the SL economy -- to increase the value of the L$, so artists can be paid and cover their expenses, so that they can afford the time and tools to create more and better content. Imagine a world where musicians aren't paid (or where inflation is so out of control), so they can't afford instruments or sheet music or the time to practice. That's a vision of Hell. SL is a better world. *goes off to huddle in the corner with Daz and a brick of chocolate* From: musicteacher Rampal If that's your argument, everything is made up. There is physical manifestation of music, it's called sheet music, CD's, tapes, records, concerts, the physical skill you learn. It's not thoughts and manifestations, it's complex mathematical combinations of sound waves that can create an emotional response. It's all very real, the skill learned is real, the notes on the page are real, the soundwaves created are real, the emotional response is real, the recordings are real, the job opportunities are real, the neural connections made throuogh learning music is real. If music is imaginary it has to be the most profitable imaginary business out there. I suppose math, reading, and science are all just thoughts and ideas and technique as well, so should we pay teachers anything? Should people have to go to school? If it's all imaginary why learn anything at all? If musical notes on a printed page are not real then I suppose the words in books are not real and the authors should not be compensated.
Unless every piece of music ever written is destroyed at once, along with every recording, and everyone's skills in music and musical knowledge is erased from their mind, music will always exist. But if LL pulls the plug all the "real" content in SL will be gone in an instant.
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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09-25-2005 13:19
yeah, what Kim said.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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09-25-2005 13:34
From: Kim Anubis The work we do here, the artists of SL, has value, or you wouldn't be here spending time and effort arguing to preserve your stipend so you could buy it. Your post is brilliantly stated. Says everything I was thinking but didn't have the energy to render as text. It's a little shocking that a case has to be made for the value of intellectual property, as well as for the value of time and effort spent creating something unique. Yet it did have to be made, and you did so quite effectively.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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Kim Anubis
The Magician
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 921
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09-25-2005 15:47
Thanks, Enabran -- I was just trying to continue along your line of thought. I'm a bit embarassed, though. I realized I've slighted Jillian by holding up a competitor's plane as an example when she was right here in the thread debating with aplomb. My apologies . . . my foolish crush on Cubey has finally led me into Dumbassland. No apology re my crush on Aimee, though. 
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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09-25-2005 15:57
From: Kim Anubis Thanks, Enabran -- I was just trying to continue along your line of thought. I'm a bit embarassed, though. I realized I've slighted Jillian by holding up a competitor's plane as an example when she was right here in the thread debating with aplomb. My apologies . . . my foolish crush on Cubey has finally led me into Dumbassland. Meh. I don't feel at all slighted. I might show off the thread when teaching someone about the power of branding, though. From: Kim Anubis No apology re my crush on Aimee, though.  Really, who could blame you for it? 
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Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
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09-25-2005 16:17
From: Kim Anubis The work we do here, the artists of SL, has value, or you wouldn't be here spending time and effort arguing to preserve your stipend so you could buy it.
The problem with counting on stipends only, with no RL cash injected into the system through someplace like GOM, is that it has no backing. It has no actual value. It is only Monopoly money until someone's willing to trade it for RL cash. If LL gives everyone enough money as a stipend so that they can buy all the stuff they want with stipends alone, and no one ever goes to GOM . . . all the artists here go pretty much uncompensated. By reducing the stipend, LL is trying to encourage members to inject RL cash into the SL economy -- to increase the value of the L$, so artists can be paid and cover their expenses, so that they can afford the time and tools to create more and better content. Sorry, but nobody needs to be compensated for anything. Especially not with RL money. 1. It does not matter how much “time and effort” you put into something. If you are not doing any hard labor such as breaking your back in the sun, breathing in construction yard dust, shoveling the most disgusting infested garbage, it is no labor. Nobody needs to be looked at as if they are doing some sort of high value labor, and should be compensated. 2. The end user pays $10 for minimum land. Anybody can play the game for free to create, and sell content. Whether they pay for SL or not, what they get is an interface that allows them to create stuff. The interface also allows them so sell the stuff for game money. The structure allows for this game money to be traded for real dollars. Ultimately the value of Second Life does not come from the content creators. It comes from the platform/the game itself. It is the ability to create content. This is part of what we pay for. I create content, and I sell it. I also follow the market to see what the best price would be for my content. I do not deserve anything more than what anybody is paying for my stuff. I would never delude myself as to think that I deserve anything. I would not delude myself into believing that I am some sort of contributor to SL in any way more than everybody else. Every end-user could be using Second Life for any reason under the sun. No single user no matter what they do is contributing more to SL than any other user. Their own presence. Everybody no matter who you are does the same thing. We all use SL. We have a platform that allows us to create whatever we want. It is our choice to use this platform however we wish. Basic player, premium players, businesses, content creators, nobody deserves priority over the other. Ever single user in SL deserves the utmost service and consideration from Linden Labs. LL provides gaming money so people can but stuff in the game. I’d be deluding myself if I thought I deserved a single L for whatever I create. I’d be deluding myself if I thought it wasn’t enough that we can get paid for what we make period. If there is a lot of content in Second Life that players can use, that is great. Sure there could be more and there could be less. That is not for anybody to decide, but the market. If people wanted lots of content, they can go play another game. SL can lose all the content it has right now. Any user can come, and start creating content. There will always be content. There will always be quality content. Any content creator that deludes themselves into thinking they are doing SL a favor with their presence is not facing the plain and simple fact: Every single user of SL is a content creator. There is nothing that will ever stop users no matter what from creating and providing rich quality content for SL. Fact: The quality/availability of content is of minimal relation to how lucrative content creating is. Creating content is never lucrative period. It never was, and there is no reason it should ever be. The quality/availability of content in SL is vastly dependent on the capabilities of the interface we use. If you are crying because all of the content in SL is not enough for you, making content creating more lucrative will change nothing. Try making reasonable suggestions on how SL as a content creating interface could be improved. That will be the most important factor in creating better content. There is no “content creators deserve better” because of “what they do for the SL”. Everybody does the same thing for SL. They use it. We do not and should not get anything in return for using SL. In fact, many of us pay the fee to Linden Labs to use SL in a better way. We pay them to create content. And if we are free players, all the better. The fact that we can sell content as well is part of using SL. There is no need to compensate anybody for any deluded reason. It is contradictory to say that we need content creators for the SL community. We do not need anything. We get a content creator every time a new member signs up. There is nothing that can stop content creation. Content is created, and content is played with. More content is created, and more content is played with. And again and again and again. This will never end. This is what we are paying for. Nobody is paying us for this. The buying/selling of content is all part of the fun. Content creators would want people to have stipends and Ls so that they can buy content. It’s all part of the fun. Create content. Play with it. Sell it other players to see how they play with it around SL. 3. It’s not enough that basic players do not even get much in stipends. To propose that stipends be eliminated would make for an economy with no Ls. All the Ls in the are created, and put into the economy as stipends. Without stipends, there would be no Ls being put into the economy. Furthermore, players would not be able to buy stuff. They cannot go out and farm mobs for gold. Therefore, they get a meager amount of stipends. No stipends means no Ls means no way to pay for content means no buying/selling content.
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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09-25-2005 17:17
From: Boyfriend Bailly Drivel Well, isn't that special. Ok, since you obviously have not the first idea how an economy works and choose to be shockingly insulting, I'm putting you on my ignore list. I really have no wish to be told that my effort and the effort of a great many people I respect ads up to nothing.
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Boyfriend Bailly
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 60
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09-25-2005 17:40
Drivel? Nice tantrum. It's not relevant either way. I only ignor abusive posts. I never ignore others for their ideas no matter what as long as they are not vulgar to me. Ignoring abuse is reasonalbe. Ignoring people disagree with seems to be a theme for many that do not wish to see the truth. Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the lack of desire for knowledge.
I do not need to be told that I do not have the first idea of economy. That is ad-hom. Attacking people instead of the issue, throwing tantrums, ignoring. This is unreasonable behavior which would lead me to wonder if thier other points are guided by objective reason.
With regards to effort, nobody is saying anything means nothing. Anybody that choose to play SL cannot expect to be compensated for anything they do. That is like going up to somebody's car at the stoplight, and cleaning their windsheild. Then trying to claim you desreve compensation for it. Nobody hired you. Nobody owes you anything.
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Kim Anubis
The Magician
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 921
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09-25-2005 18:05
Boyfriend, no one advocated abolishing stipends; there has only been discussion as to why LL cut the ratings bonus. I'm sorry if you were confused about that.
No one said content creators are better people than consumers (and aren't we all consumers anyway?).
There is no call for you to denigrate content creators or their creations. That's just rude. I feel my work is valuable, and that the compensation I request for it is fair. People who buy my work agree. If you disagree, it's simple: Don't buy it. Better yet: Organize picketers to march in front of my shop to protest my prices -- be sure to tip off the major SL media outlets first!
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http://www.TheMagicians.us 
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Memir Quinn
Registered User
Join date: 7 May 2005
Posts: 306
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09-25-2005 18:07
From: Boyfriend Bailly Grunt-grunt, chest thump, mouth noise, pot kettle blacking Yes, yes, a sockpoppet turns up at just the right moment spewing contradictory nonsense without even enough merit to laugh at harshly, feels better about itself for the attention its garnered and life goes on. An plonk, goes the sound of a troll being ignored. Have a lovely Secondlife. ^.^
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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09-25-2005 18:15
From: Boyfriend Bailly 1. It does not matter how much “time and effort” you put into something. If you are not doing any hard labor such as breaking your back in the sun, breathing in construction yard dust, shoveling the most disgusting infested garbage, it is no labor. Nobody needs to be looked at as if they are doing some sort of high value labor, and should be compensated. This is the most shockingly ignorant thing I've ever read on the SL forums. Your attitude is both hateful to creative people and deplorable in its defecation on the value of the human mind and its efforts. I find myself speechless with pity for someone with such a small outlook on human endeavors. And I've seen a lot, buster.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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