About welfare and the unemployment rate in SL?

Hi

First Up i apologize I have not read every single reply in this thread - I tried to pick up the jist.

I am a creator of objects in SL - I spend considerable time making these objects.
If I were to create those objects anywhere else other than SL I would be expected to be paid considerable RL money - A 3d model of a castle complete with scripted parts to make the experience more enjoyable would probably cost in the order of 100's if not 1000's of dollars ( A custom 3D job for a commercial client very rarely even gets on to the design board for less than $1000 ) - my castle - I asked 15,000Linden for it (the customer gave me 25,000 as she was happy with it).

My scripts - I have games and other utilities that i charge no more than 500L for - most sell for less than 100 and some for free.
Talk to a programmer in RL and get them to spend a week designing and writing something and offer to pay then $5.

"But you make your money by being ablle to sell them ad-infinitem " - It's called licensing - all major game and programming companies do it and charge considerably more than 100Linden for the pleasure. (Even most shareware or Tryware has a $25 price tag attached to it)

So much for the creators right to be compensated for their troubles.

The stipend - I have always thought of that as a refund on part of my monthly fee - I pay a small amount for the admin costs of land and maintaining the system - the rest is returned to me to invest in the game or cash out as i see fit.

Without a stipend people will think twice before buying anything - even something that is selling for pennies (that should sell for $dollars ) - with the stipend people can buy thngs and sort of think "oh well I didnt really have to pay for it - its part of the package".

Creators having to pay for the privilege of creating - fine - if it costs me 3000Linden to make something then the price goes up accordingly and we get into a spiral where you cant afford to buy because I cant afford to create - or worse, people just stop making things.

( I enjoy making things in SL but I am not going to shell out RL cash for the privilege )

At the moment it costs me mainly my time and the 10Linden file upload fee - KEEP IT THAT WAY.

thats my 2Linden worth

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded—here and there, now and then—are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck." -- Lazarus Long

First of it's woman, but let me address this. I don't just teach instruments for people to have fun. Some do learn just for fun, some learn in hopes of a musical career, whether in education or performance. There are scientific studies showing that learning how to read and write in the language of music improves intelligence, causes the brain to grow bigger than those who do not actively read, write, and play music, and creates a stronger connection between the left and right side of the brain. Also the process of converting musical symbols into meaninful melodic content in the brain helps students become better readers. The process converting musical symbols into maningful rhythmic content helps develop a students math ability. The manual dexterety skills required for most instruments helps to develop a child's physical development. Now the non-developmental benefits. Playing in a school band requires teamwork, consideration of others, and teaches responsibility. Yes I hope my students have fun, but there are more reasons and benefits to teaching music than just fun. Do I tell the students all the "school" benefits of playing music, no I try to make it fun for them. But those benefits are what keep it in the core curriculum of most American public schools. Now along your lines absolutely no teacher deserves to be paid to teach? Is it possible to self teach yourself an instrument? Absolutely. However just as some kids need tutoring to succeed in school, some need private lessons to succeed in music. The people who play the music do not pay me, I am paid to provide as service for the school district in which I am hired. And I do this job because it is FUN for me.

Hoarding?? Not at all I share my musical knowledge with over 700 students a week. If I wanted to hoard I would only share it with those who could pay me directly. As a public school teacher I share it with as many as I can and still make a living. Please do not compare RL jobs to SL. Trust me, my RL job is not about making money, because public service jobs (teachers, police, firemen) do NOT make the big bucks! Being married to a Police officer, my Hubby and I have been able to live comfortably in under 6 figures, but we do not have a huge house, we do not have the best clothing, we do have fairly nice cars but not the best, we splurged on a great computer because it's important to us but we'll soon have to make some sacrifices with our first child on the way. Such is life.

Now since all that is completely off topic let me reiterate that I do not begrudge anyone the ability to make RL$$ off of SL. The fact that it's even possible to make RL$$ off something completely made up still baffles me.



Just out of curiosity...in RL are you speaking of something you made as a request/comission of someone else or are you making it just to make it and then expect someone to pay well for it? I mean, some of the most famous artists in history could barely make ends meet selling their paintings or sculptures but they kept doing it because they enjoyed it. The wanted SOME compensation, but they did not expect the millions that their paintings are worth now. If you create something in SL as a comission then yes, expect to be paid for your time and effort, if you create something you THINK people will buy, then hope for compensation. If you create something just because it's fun, then be happy if people offer to buy it from you.

Is this line of thinking completely illogical??? I mean think of all the failed inventions, failed painter, failed musicians. I guess for me I just don't understand the kind of person who approaches SL as a way to make RL$$. I can totally understand the thinking behind someone who came here, figured out they could make cool stuff, figured out people would pay for those things, and then decided to try to make a business out of it. But someone who comes here EXPECTING to make a successful business off of SL and then get ticked off when the $L drops in value and start lobying to remove the way other people enjoy SL to protect their RL$$ investment I do not understand. I'm not begrudging the ability to make a profit from SL, but rather the attitude that it is expected.



I do not expect freebies from the content makers in SL that is not what I'm trying to say. I'm just saying that when creators such as yourself get more hung up on how much RL$$ they make and the value of the $L, then they begin to push for ways to fix the value of the $L which usually inadvertantly or purposefully is meant to drag more $RL out of the players. But go ahead and keep expecting people to pay your bills for you and if you get your way and stipends are removed completely then be prepared for people to stop paying you for your hard work. I guess as someone who just wants to have SL as a way to relax and be creative for myself I don't understand the mindset of those who are here EXCLUSIVELY to make a RL profit. I use words like EXCLUSIVELY because most of the business owners are not here only for profit, it's a huge benefit of being here, but it's not the only reason. I mean no offense, and I'm not saying you're wrong in your beliefs, I just don't understand them, though I'm trying. I'm also not suggesting that you give your services away for free, just do not lobby to take away the only source of income that many of us have. I CHOOSE not to sell what I make because I don't want the hassle of dealing with customers. As I've said before in other threads, I've done the retail thing, and I know what makes one person happy can piss another one off, and I hate that, so I don't work in retail anymore. But that is just me. I don't buy $L, and I don't buy content I cannot afford. If I see a new outfit I want, I may have to wait till Tuesday to get it, if I see land I prefer to what I have, I usually can't get it because by the time I have saved enough to get it it's gone...so I do without. Am I getting a free lunch? Regardless of whether I buy the $L from other players, or get the $L from LL, if I buy an object from you, you still get the $L so where is the free lunch??

*is stunned*

I'll take all the freebies i can get!

Long live free stuff!!!


Oh yeah!

Yeah. You know what's even more baffling? Someone can make money just because they know how to make music. I mean, what's that? Music is completely made up. There's no physical manifestation of music, it's all just thoughts and ideas. I feel bad for the poor bastards who pay someone to be taught something that's completely made up. Now that's a racket I'm impressed by! Selling people... nothing at all? Just thoughts and ideas and technique?

Wow. Crazy ass stuff right there. I don't even know what to say.

And I still think you shouldn't expect to be compensated for it. Sure, you spend hours and hours and hours doing things for these people, but in the end, it's all made up. Nothing is actually real. So you should have to work in a supermarket or something to pay your rent, instead of doing what you actually like.

You know, because it's all made up.

So what - it's made up!


I'm made up and so are you!

Pay me!

*Throws musicteacher Rampal a flame retardant suit and runs away*

If you want the L$ to be valueless, then that's EXACTLY what you've asked for.
Pay close, close attention to this - you're attacking a straw man for most of that.

First, there has been no threat to remove stipends. And I've already said I'm against the removal of stipends. To adjust them is another thing - and I've also stated that I'd prefer they be adjusted according to our ability to get L$ from other places. In other words, my stipend gets cut before yours.

Second, you claim I should be "playing within my means"... well, part of my means is my ability to make things people want to buy. That's what the word means - it's not about my RL bank account alone. I even have fun doing it - so I guess I'm not "here EXCLUSIVELY to make a RL profit." Not that making a profit's a bad thing... which I've no idea why you seem trying to imply that it is.

I do expect to have my SL paid for by my efforts. See - I'm converting my effort into value. You do that when you go to work in RL. You go there, you make an effort to get your job done, and you get paid for it. In RL, you don't usualy have any other choice though, since you need the pay - the value of you refort - in order to survive. The nice thing about SL is you have other options besides effort to get value. Patience and converting your RL money. Mind, you do this all the time with other entertainments you enjoy in your life. You wait and gather your money for more expensive items of entertainment value - television, CD and DVD players - and you convert your money into other entertainments directly - movies, books, music...

What your resistance is to doing that in SL I've no idea, since you never address that direcly.

And no matter how liberally I view your argument, all I see is you saying that you want to pay Linden Lab your 10USD a month and get to have the work of all those others to play with via your stipend alone... and all those others aren't seeing a dime of what you pay to LL. That means you're asking for that work... for free.

If you decide to address this, please please address that last paragraph. If you reject all my other ideas, fine - just please explain why that last one isn't what it seems to be if I am wrong about it.

*soothes and pampers Kim*

So, while I was at work today, I was pondering things from musicteacher et al's point of view. I'd like to, if I may, explore this line of thought.

Okay, let us first renounce the idea that Second Life is not a game. Let us assume it is an idle amusement, a game, no different except in theme and method than any other massively-multiplayer online game on the market.

Now, these other MMOGs, they generally have various challenges - enemies, items to grab, powers to obtain, and so on and so forth. These are created by a team of professionals. Programmers, artists, animators, sound engineers. As well you might expect, they get paid professional wages - although anyone who has read the tales of people employed by Electronic Arts and other large companies knows the computer game industry isn't all it's cracked up to be. Still, a lot of outfits do alright by their employees - I'm sure Blizzard treats its folks well, and I know Cryptic Studios seems to have happy workers.

Also, one is expected to pay for these games, yes? Often, a typical $50 fee for the initial box, which includes a free month of play, and a ~$15 fee thereafter. (Unless I specify, I'm talking US dollars here.) Given the wild success of World of Warcraft, a lot of people think this is a perfectly fine arrangement.

Now, we come to Second Life. Second Life does not have a "content team"; very little of what is available in Second Life is made by Linden Labs. They are the invisible gnomes that keep the grid running, and happy to stay that way. A powerful feature of Second Life is the only limits are technical; one may create pretty much whatever they wish, with effort. If you are not a creator, you may often find someone to do it for you, if it hasn't already been made.

Therefore, we have established that some users are a de facto "content team", where other users prefer to experience this content and not worry with creation. This is a perfectly satisfactory state of affairs.

However... Linden Labs does not charge for access to Second Life; even when they did, a one-time $10 fee is hardly onerous. It does charge if you wish to create anything of lasting value, in the form of land and land use fees. This is how Linden Labs pays its own employees and server bills.

Now, then, even taking your own view , even when we admit Second Life is a game, it is considered typical in the civilized world to pay those who produce games. Therefore, by your own rubric, those who make content - THINGS TO DO - in Second Life - deserve to be paid money - real money, not fake Linden Dollars. As it is, the L$ is used as an easy-to-use microcurrency - it is more cost effective to make something, charge someone a tiny fraction of a US dollar (in the form of, say, L$30) and collect these Lindens until you can sell a batch to someone who would like to have Lindens to buy things in-world, than to constantly make $0.10 charges through PayPal. Larger charges in Lindens occur as a matter of natural course - skins are difficult to make and in high demand, so of course well-done avatar skins command a relatively large price compared to someone's goofy t-shirt.

We can draw three conclusions from this: Firstly, it's really kind of cool that a basic account can have quite a lot of free fun without spending a single dime, between saving up L$50 stipends, free items, and making do for oneself. Secondly, given that a premium account member is actively contributing towards the continued existence of Second Life (through paying Linden Labs real US$) it is entirely within reason that they receive a larger stipend, and Thirdly, if you take the same $15 you might spend on World of Warcraft, remain a basic account, and instead spend it on the Gaming Open Market in order to buy things in-world, you will have enough money for a considerable amount of amusement.

In any case, even if Second Life is a game, it's the creators that are making the game for you to play; they deserve compensation.

Eloquently stated.

I will address this...

If I pay LL $10 I get $500 L as part of my membership. I spend that L$500 on other people's work, hence the $US I spent which got me my $L is in-deed going to other players in the form of $L which they can then sell for $US. I suppose it just depends on what you see your membership fees going towards. Though I suppose I could follow another person's suggestion and cancel my premium account and spend $10US a month buying $L, getting more $L for that $10 and rent land. Then my $10US would go 100% to players, and LL would get nothing else from me. Hope too many people don't decide to do that.

I apologize that I misread your call for reducing stipends to read as removal of them. I suppose the content creators and non-creators are gonna have to agree to disagree because I do not see SL as a movie, book, music, type of entertainment. I don't have to pay a monthly fee for the RIGHT to buy movie tickets or cd's. Blockbuster, not too long ago, had a monthly fee for unlimited rentals. That makes sense, but why would a pay a montly fee to be able to pay more to rent movies. I pay a montly fee for cable which includes movies but I do not pay extra for those movies. Do the creators of those movies get money from each rental? yes but a reatively small amount compared to what the rental place makes from the rentals. Does this make any sense?

I don't even know how to feel about the whole game producers get paid for developing games thing. LL does get paid for providing the coding necessary to allow content creators to express themselves creatively. Personally, if I wanted something in SL bad enough and i didn't have the $L for it I might go buy some $L, but I havn't found anything that I wanted that badly. I know many do and that is why there is any trading of $L for RL$ at all. I also think that if I felt that my time was unappreciated in SL (ie.not makeing enough money on my stuff) then I would find another place for my effort. If I felt that my computer contet creation abilities were good enough to get paid RL$ for I'd look at applying computer or design companies. That's really just me.

I understand the desire to get something for your time, I don't appreciate the openly hostile attitude coming from those who don't feel they're getting enough for their time.

I would like you to understand that I have no problem with your business, or anyone elses, I have no desire to see you or anyone else in SL fail. I have tried very hard not to attack you in anyway, yet show why I disagree with you on certain points. If I've been offensive or hostile towards you or anyone else I apologize.

Basically the creator and the consumer have two VERY different views on what SL should be about and we're both right. I think if both sides tried to understand the other better and take SL changes in stride, SL would be much more peaceful. I post responses to your views in hopes of helping you to understand a view of SL other than your own. I make a point to read your responses in hope of understanding your point of view.

One other thing...most of us HAVE to spend time at a RL job and need the $$ from that job to survive. People in SL have CHOSEN to spend their time in SL and if it's because you NEED the $$ for RL expenses, then it would probably be better to spend that time at a RL job that, except for a few exceptions in SL, pays better. Maybe not as much fun, but it would meet the need better. I guess as someone who does not expect to re-claim the $$ spent on a game I can't really emathize with your point of view very well, but I'll agree to disagree.

If that's your argument, everything is made up. There is physical manifestation of music, it's called sheet music, CD's, tapes, records, concerts, the physical skill you learn. It's not thoughts and manifestations, it's complex mathematical combinations of sound waves that can create an emotional response. It's all very real, the skill learned is real, the notes on the page are real, the soundwaves created are real, the emotional response is real, the recordings are real, the job opportunities are real, the neural connections made throuogh learning music is real. If music is imaginary it has to be the most profitable imaginary business out there. I suppose math, reading, and science are all just thoughts and ideas and technique as well, so should we pay teachers anything? Should people have to go to school? If it's all imaginary why learn anything at all? If musical notes on a printed page are not real then I suppose the words in books are not real and the authors should not be compensated.

Unless every piece of music ever written is destroyed at once, along with every recording, and everyone's skills in music and musical knowledge is erased from their mind, music will always exist. But if LL pulls the plug all the "real" content in SL will be gone in an instant.

Err - I wish most WOULD, becasue LL still gets thier land fees, the big money that keeps the rolling.

The film industry is merely more traditional. You're still paying blockbuster for keepting the films available (they are the LL in this case) and the film maker for thier time (the content creator) it's just that Blockbuster is handling the paying of the content creator for you. In SL it's the exact same process, except that you pay the content creator directly. LL does this becasue the plan is, eventually, to make servers all independantly run. At that point, LL will no longer be in the position to provide the service of paying the content creators.

That's odd. I think you better explore that.

You've inadvertantly insulted everyone doin content building. Read that again.
Game design has ten people vying for every position. LL's freed the little guy to have a go - I don't understand why you would want to repress that.

The only attitude generating open hostility is th eone where someone asks for other's efforts for free. Otherwise, you're arguing a staw-man.

This last paragraph is another straw man. Totally irrelevant. I know you'd like ths to be about profiting, but it's really only about being fair and compensating others for thier work.

Nothing you said here really addressed my assertion. It still appears you still want to be able to have access to people's work without having to pay for it.

Let me sum up Aliasi's post for ya:

Costs for WoW:
$50 for access (the box)
$15 monthly fee

TOTAL: $65 for the first month

Costs for SL:
$0 for access (basic account)
$9.95 monthly fee (premium - comes with about USD $6 worth of linden dollars per month)
$2 for your First Land

TOTAL: $11.95

This leaves you with... drum roll... $53.05... TO BUY 15,000 L$!!!
Yes, buying L$. The shock, the horror.
What - you dont get it? YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BUY MONEY!
Buying money is an essential part of "the game".
GO BUY YOUR GOD DAMN MONEY AND QUIT WHINING!
Heck, you can even make a profit buying and selling money.

I thought I was pretty clear when I said...



From my point of view I am paying for it!

The problem is that you are paying the wrong people. If you are paying Linden Labs for the money, why is Linden Labs giving you the ability to buy goods they did not produce. The money paid to get a stipend only gets to the content creator if Linden Labs balances the economy correctly. GOM has information that suggests they haven't balanced the economy correctly over the last year. The issue is getting those $US you spent to the people you buy from. If you buy upload fees with the stipend then there is no problem. Linden Labs sold you the $L in advance to use their upload service. It is when you buy resident made goods that suddenly the person creating the good is not recieving their pay in $US. They can go to the GOM market, but since the economy is not being balanced, the $L you gave them is not worth as much as it was when they set the price. It is the same effect as Linden Labs selling $L on the GOM market that they printed for free.

Here you are just plain wrong.

Let me map this out again. Your RL cash is going to Linden Lab, who use it to pay for thier expenses - colo, hardware, electricity, employees, R&D, etc. - the stipend they give you is just incentive to keep doing that.

Not one tiny part of that value goes to the folks making the content.

Now, I'm not arguing you should stop playing that way. It's a perfectly valid, readily available way of having fun in SL.

But the fact remains you still get to have the vaue of the content without trading value for it to those providing it. It is only to be expected that there will be changes there. I would prefer that the stipends never be removed - I like that option, as it keeps SL lighter that RL and thus more fun. But, please - let's not make-belive that what you pay LL at all compensates the content creators for the effort they put into this. And if LL has to adjust stipends to make sure there is still real value in that compensation, and you're among those sticking to that stipend as your sole method of compensating the creators, please don't insult those efforts by complaining.

All you want is something for nothing and you've been making that extremely clear to every tom, dick and harry and their sister and their sister's brother's dog since LL announced its intentions of limiting the stipend bonuses.

I guess you figure if you raise a big enough stink and open enough threads (thread after thread 'hotline' query after 'hotline' query) something will change or maybe that you're just really trying convince yourself that you aren't behaving in a completely self-centred manner.

Reminds me very much of a petulant toddler stamping their feet and threatening to hold their breath till something changes.

Good luck with that.

I'm confused, as long as content creators get $L for their products they have the ability to get $US right? So how am I not putting $$ into their pockets? It sounds like the most fair way to ensure that people get fairly compensated for their time and effort would be to do away with the $L completely and make people pay $US for SL content. Why does LL have to be responsible for the value that the players place on imaginary currency?

I don't want SL to be like RL! Why would I pay for another RL? I don't want a realistic economy, I don't want SL government, I don't want any of that because that is why I go to SL, to GET AWAY FROM RL! And before you attack me for making this all about me, I'd venture to say that MANY feel this way.

I won't complain if stipends are adjusted to where I can no longer enjoy SL the way I have been, I'll leave and find another game that offers me entertainment without guilt or pressure to continually pay beyond my membership fees.

Becasue LL's survival depends on this system working.

Egad. You simply don't get it. SL is not a traditional game. LL doesn't provide you with entertainment. LL provides the medium for others to provide you entertainment. That's the way this system works.

You know, many may feel they deserve something for nothing. That just means that many are wrong, and greedy. But I really do not belive it's many by any means. I think the vast majority understand how the system works.

Somewhere in here is where were losing you

Oh that famed chorus of the 'we', that grand legion, that fabled multitude of those in lockstep with your point of view.

Sure sister, we're all waiting with abated breath on the exodus thats not going to happen. :eyeroll:

Accept it and move on Musicteacher, you're turning blue already... time to take a breath hon.