Discuss New Forum Policy Here - Pt 2

Yes, Susie, if it has to be one short sentence, that's about as good as it gets. But this thread is evidence many people feel it needs more flesh. Please respect that.

One could add "or how they post", for instance.....

I could suggest that phrases like "For the 100 millionth time I will repeat " are themselves somewhat close to the line.........

Yep yep. All of your posts on this subject in the various threads have been excellent Ellie.

Agreed.

This seems about right in terms of what the rules (possibly) are, but i disagree with them still.

Have we really degenerated to the point where calling someone "stupid" is an offence?

We are all going to end up running around shushing each other in fear of big brother Linden getting angry.
This is just wrong.
All wrong.
This is the kind of rules they give to grade schoolers nowadays.
Bah!

(Lindens please not that the "Bah!" was a general "bah!" and not a specific "bah!" directed at any specific member. )

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I think this is a good point.

I have zero neg rates and zero complaints and want to keep it that way, so i have to leave the forums now to keep it, but the easiest solution if i wanted to keep posting is actually to set up an alt account.

In that way, this policy almost encourages all the big forum posters to:

a) leave gracefully (as many are doing.)
b) come back as an alt or series of alts.

Seems to me this makes the forum a more anonymous and potentialy nastier place.
*Less* responsibility, *fewer* people caring about their reputations etc.

Everyone knows that when you are wering a mask (or an alt) you are likely to do things that the "real" you would never do.

Coupled with the presence of the new forum "finks"... well it does not seem like a healthy place at all anymore.

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When has calling someone stupid ever not been offensive, and intended as such? "You're an utter moron, but I mean that in the nicest way!" ?? Calling someone stupid is offensive, and it always has been.

I would think that calling someone's ideas stupid is also offensive, for practical reasons: it hits too close to home, and is too easily misunderstood as a personal insult.

There are far better ways to demonstrate the stupidity of an idea. The only thing is, it doesn't give you that adrenaline jolt like when you read "you're stupid," or "your idea is stupid". A lot of people are addicted to that jolt.

I am more than a tad sick of seeing all the things done to me with regularity - including JUST YESTERDAY - enumerated and attributed here only to the dearly departed by practically everyone.

When done by some of you to me, or to others, they are invisible. When done to the dearly departed, whether before or after his departure, they are invisible.

What an amazing role he played.

coco

No, all of Elle's posts haven't been excellent, particularly not this one:

"It became the only way, sadly. Without a punishment to be feared, no control can be exercised."

How did it become the only way? When did it become the only way?

What this says is that the people REMAINING on these boards can't possibly be controlled without tying posting behavior to one's ability to play the game.

Do you really believe that to be true?

It isn't the only way to control Prok - he's gone.

Apparently people think the rest of us need this draconian new measure, rather than more consistent modding of the boards.

In fact, now that I think of it, it IS easier to throw the big scare into everybody than it is to actually spend the manpower to keep the boards in any kind of decent shape, isn't it?

coco

I'm sorry Coco, I've been trying hard. I think we can more on past all of this soon. If someone is really bothering you, please PM and I will AR them. That way you won't have to dirty yourself over it.

On a positive note, there seems to be a lot of people here who are supportive of your ideas, so I don't think it's practically everyone hon. I hope that didn't offend you.

Poor, poor you.

Me? You still think this is all about me?

Just because I tasted the worst of what the boards can do to people, and witnessed the hypocrisy that follows, do you think I believe everyone else to be immune to the same treatment?

No, because this treatment runs rampant on these boards.

You should be grateful I'm trying to save ALL our asses from this new measure.

NOT that your myopic comment deserves any response at all.

coco

I know... You're a poor victim. Everyone has been cruel and heartless to poor you. You've mentioned it in just about every thread you've posted in now. It never gets stale. How very altruistic of you to keep that alive so that others never have to suffer the same fate as poor, poor Cocoa.

I should be grateful that you're trying to save all our asses? That's some ego you have on you. Look around for a change. Quite a few of us see this new measure as a step in the right direction. Who do you think you are to try and save anyone from it? How dare you try and tell other adults what is right for them.

If you're too 'afraid' to post with the new changes, then don't, but I appreciate them. Save the crusade for people who need it, or at least want it.

I think this is a more complicated issue than that.
People *do* get mad, and most find it difficult to always seperate their feelings from their posts.
Sure if we were all Mr. Spock everything would be fine and dandy.

I think it is acceptable for people to get mad, to get irritated and to call each other names in the sense that this is a part of being a human. I think people should get a thicker skin about this stuff and not be so whiny (see my feature proposition for thicker skins for avatars)

"Violations" like this probably happen to you all the time in RL and you dont even think about it, so why here? I would like to ask any of those folks that are seemingly getting off on reporting people for minor violations, if they may have perhaps shook their fist at another driver on the road today? or muttered somethign about another person under their breath? or even to their face? I smell hypocrisy.

I could think of a dozen things that happened to me in SL over the last week that make someone calling someone else "stupid" or "fascist" a ridiculous violation in comparison. (Including psycho stalkers, being shot at and an attempted hypnotic abduction. Phew! Wot a week!. ) I have had Lindens suggest to me that I should report people simply because they were rude or called me a bad word like "bitch" or something. To me this is waay overboard.

Its those "worse" things we should be worried about. Not whether someone can get back at someone else by reporting them to the Lindens on the forum for calling him or her a bad name.


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Sorry, i meant "offence" as in "official Linden offence" not offensive

Hang in there Coco!

It's tough being someone who doesn't swim the same direction as all the other fish. Despite supporting questionable folks, your heart is in the right place.

~Ulrika~

Yes, but why shouldn't insulting someone's intelligence be an official offence? It's always been an official offence to call someone ugly, and I know which of the two I would rather be called or thought of.. Ugly. There is no reason to say it other than to deliberately offend, and I think the Lindens are trying to tell us that they're damn sick of us constantly slipping into flame wars and denegrating threads into personal insults.

They have, in no uncertain terms, told us that if we do it again, we are grounded. Not just sent to our rooms without our stereo, but no TV, Phone or Playstation either.

I have posted before about the virtual impossibility (or at least impractibility) of LL identifying every alt of a determined and resourceful abuser.

Also remember that many friendships exist here. It would even be possible to establish a long and convincing history of previous independent world-presence, if a friend who was leaving or otherwise a supporter bequeathed a suitable password and identity into your hands. With a non-premium account there is no threat to the bequeathers credit card, and an internet cafe (or even a change of ISP or a second data line) can completely solve the IP number problem. An ISP change could hardly cost anything.

Only someone a bit obsessive about the forum game would go to such lengths, but such people do exist.

My attitude is - since we cannot absolutely prevent it - we would have to simply accept any person who succeeded at such deception. If they reform and behave decently, then ok, but at the first sign of the old tricks that identity too should be stamped out.

Disclaimer: Yes I have posted under several alts, but only for my own protection and to evade harassment. If the forums improve as I hope, I shall give the practice up. No alt of mine has ever received a warning.

Yes, i have been in difficulties with players "in world" who have been here since the beta, so their "alts" have more history than I do and are thus indistinguishable from any other player.

I would like to clarify (since we are talking about it), that I have *never* posted to the forums as an alt and don't like the practice much.

I am not even that crazy about the alts that I made myself and usually tell everyone I meet as the alt that I am an alt. I have even walked around twith a fliptitle saying "Dianne Mechaniques alt" at times.

To me alts are like the traditional "Golum." They are slavish robots created for a particualr need, or a speicific purpose, but not "people." For them to be "people" I would have to be a much better actress for starters.

Even if I suceeded, it would put my own existence into question, would it not?.

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I disagree.
It often comes down to inferrence and subjective determinations of "offense."

Being someone who holds strong (and apparently minority) opinions. I can think of lots of things I have said that to me are "arugments" but to others are inflamatory or "offensive" statements. If some forum-nazis decide to target me and post a lot of offense reports, Linden *should* take that seriously. I *could* be warned or banned and so could anyone.

As much as my opinion might be that these complainers are just.. well, complainers... if Linden Labs did not take the reports seriously, they would not be doing their job, and accordingly I would have no confidence that they would take any report I might make seriously either.

It is also relevant that in the two cases we have heard of so far:

- Both were warned or banned seemingly for having a keyword show up in their posts that the Lindens were likely sifting for.
- Both seem to me to be technically in error
- Both involve not the famous "haranguer" or other trouble makers, but stellar members of the forum community.

This does not speak to me of a reasoned approach or of anyone truly thinking about the content of each statement.

And how could they find the time to do that anyway?
The whole thing seems unworkable and a bit of a bluff gone wrong to me.

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Fatal?

who died? I am betting it was not margaret

I think this describes my feelings exactly (about the button).

I did not even notice it until some fink (definiton 2) was telling everyone to use it this week.

It is Kafkaesque and should be gone IMO.

If people take offense or want to tattle-tale, they should reply in writing and put their name on it, no sneaking around.

Oh wait... thats just the regular forum isnt it?

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Seems to me this makes cocoa 100% right when she says that accusing people of being alts (given that they have not themselves revealed such info), *is* a violation.

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Definitely not.


The privacy statement only refers to real-life information.

For instance, one can say that my avatar is a heterosexual caucasian female in the forums and it's not a problem.

~Ulrika~

Please clarify the conversation you had with the person who compared themselve to your mother. (without illegaly posting the text)

Cause it sounds like a violation to me.

Comparing oneself to your mother does not necessarily mean a revelation of gender.
You mean this person told you explicitly they were of a certain gender?
I find that hard to believe.

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