Discuss New Forum Policy Here - Pt 2

Since the last thread got a little off-topic, I'd like to create this thread to further discussion on the new forum policy, announced here.

I'd like to request that everyone keep this discussion focused on the policy instead of their own personal debates about other Residents.

Thanks!

I think the new policies are a good idea, especially the stiffer penalties attached to breaking the rules with an alt while the main account is suspended. I also think that making suspensions from the forum result in suspension from SL and vice versa is a good idea. The previous policies lacked any real teeth before since a forum suspension isn't really a big deal so it didn't really discourage people from acting out here.

You've always given us a pretty wide berth to hash things out and I hope that will continue, but when it's obvious that a poster is just out to cause trouble in a malicious way then I think the new harsher penalties are justified. From the wording of the new policies it seems that plenty of warning and second chances will still be given. Kudos from me.

I agree with the dual suspensions. However, I think that if a person gets to the point of being banned for forum abuse, but they haven't done anything egregious in-world, they should just be banned from the forums and suspended for some period from the world. A person may be "worthless" on the forums, but still have something to contribute to the world, and I don't think the forums are anywhere near as important as SL itself.

Jeska I under that the forums are a PG environment in concideration for behavior. What I don't understand is how there will be universal enforcement. Currently in game I can say "Joe Blow sucks." and if I say it here I get a warning and enough times I get banned from both environments. What if someone intentionally uses one medium to respond to things in the other medium cause they know it is allowed there in general, specially forum conversations carrying over to In World. Are the standards going to start reflecting equally in boh worlds instead of one standard here and one over there?

My feelings fall pretty much in line with Chip's, especially the part about alts.

I have heard people stating that the new rules are tantamount to draconian censorship.

I disagree because I don't feel that libel and the like should be protected.

As I tried to say in that other thread, before it got highjacked and closed, I think this is a great thing to do. I really don't see the forums as a place for people work out personal differences with others which is what every single thread has turned into lately no matter what the original subject.

I don't think that most people are intentionally trying to be bad but instead seem to be overloaded with personal issues and see the forums as a place to vent. The forums are NOT intended to be a place where you can discuss your difference with others in long windy posts that nobody reads except the combatants. It is very rude and insensentive to subject other people to this kind of behavior and I hope the moderator can at least warn people to stop this kind of behavior and take it to IMs or someplace else. Thank you.

One thing to remember is that while the Community Standards guide all behavior in Second Life (both in-world an in-forum), the Forum Guidelines are specific to the Forums and offer straight-forward guidelines for expected behavior.

It's right there in the purpose:
The purpose of the Second Life Forums is to promote discussion and education about Second Life. We believe in an honest and open free exchange of ideas, and in always maintaining a respect for the opinions and positions of other people.

one of the problems i have with this statement is that sl is so open ended, that it's very easy for something to become relevant to sl.

say the some political party wanted to run a campaign in sl. that would immediately drag all sorts of things into sl.

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it seems to distort reality too much to consider the sl forums separate from the sl grid. both arenas are part of the sl world and under ll control. this will become even more apparent as the sl client becomes web-enabled and the forums become easier to access from the sl grid. so banning from both locations seems reasonable.

i think the policy should be changed to include more suspensions. each one longer than the next. say three suspensions (three strikes your out) 3 days, one week, and one month. and then a permanent ban.

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personally, in the end i think ll needs to take a much more hands off and much more common carrier approach to sl content. this many divorce the forums from sl again, but that's because sl itself seems to be evolving in the direction of the www. if sl doesn't evolve in the direction of the www, i think ll will have missed the boat.

or sl may be one grid among many, but still... sl is going to get too big for ll to manage content/expression wise.

Jeska
obviously a bad apple in game has to be banned. But a few times here I have seen those that are banned in one world behave in the other. Partly becuase they concider SL a game and this real or because there are obviously different rules. Will any of that be taken into concideration when enforcing the policies?

i make this "concession" because at some point ll needs to call something done.

i have a real problem with permanently banning someone from the forums - even the most recent person. but i don't have a good answer.

Well, it seems like the Lindens have effectively declared the forums and the world one and the same with this new policy.

I don't want to totally hijack this thread, but I want to say that you have a point about behavior, and it's not just limited to SL and the forums. There's a real tendancy towards online behavior that people would never, ever exhibit in the real world, and I wonder if the frequent SL/forums behavior dichotomy is related.

Things we say on the forums last "forever", and they may be seen by more people, but a relatively small percentage of users frequent them, or at least, a small percentage posts. Second Life, on the other hand, is much, much larger, but we can find ourselves feeling isolated by the illusion of distance and space between us. If I say something unkind in SL, it's fleeting, and nobody will read it later. Arguments and conversations are much more private and shorter. A flamewar on the forums can last for weeks, as participants catch up and read older posts.

I wonder if the immersive nature of SL leads to "better" behavior as we can more easily identify with the world, rather than just text.

That is what bothers me because even now they are not the same rules. Things you can say in world in a PG environment are NOT allowed here. Yes I understand the reasoning behind it but makes enforcement very hard. You have to remember there ARE extended rules for using the forums and now these extended rules CAN affect your account.

The only problem with this is I feel it's the exception, not the rule.

Example: In the past I've seen threads from people that were banned in-world turn into "look at me I got banned! Here's why" drama fests here on the boards.

Furthermore, because the proliferation of alts is a difficult practice to keep under control, this is at most a slap on the wrist for a lot of people with two or more accounts that are not "obviously" linked to one another. If you're concerned about "a second chance," I feel that this is it so long as they're not caught or continue to violate the TOS/CS.

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Now, to address a few points that have been brought up:



1) Threads should be locked, and rarely-if-ever removed in their entirety.

This is directed toward Editorial Hare from one of his earlier comments. I feel that the reason threads are locked as opposed to deleted is to avoid perceived censorship.

I recently quit a board that used this form of censorship on my own posts and even forum title. Because what I said did not follow "the party line" for their forum, they chose to indiscriminately remove my posts. Suffice it to say, I got quite pissed off.

Same problem here. I feel any threads with posts that can be salvaged should stay alive and, if necessary, be locked.


Only threads or posts in the following categories should be edited or removed in their entirety:

- Extreme attacks on a resident or group by using slurs, direct language, and/or racial terms that are not appropriate for everyday speech.

- Publication of personal information tied to a resident. These include direct chat logs and RL information that cannot be found in their public profile.

- Dangers to the community at-large. These include publicizing warez sites, hacks, and potential problems that could bring the grid to its knees. One stipulation on this: bug reports need to show malicious intent. This has happened once before in Scripting Tips.


I feel those are good conditions, and most are in line with the current TOS/CS. Locking a thread that has been cut up is not a bad thing; indeed, it proves that we won't be censored indiscriminately.



2) Everyone has a right to an opinion, but not to attack someone for it.

Simple enough, and I feel this is made abundantly clear in the new rules. I will admit that I sometimes skirt this rule with veiled attacks, sarcasm, and placing more direct words into the passive voice. In general, I try to comply with it.

I also feel that any resident thusly attacked by another here should have the right to defend themselves without "sinking to that person's level." One good means of doing this is to feed the attacker their own flame bait.


Examples:

- "Really? So I'm a troll? I never knew trolls could have a valid point."

- "This post implies ignorance in who I am and what I stand for."

- "Please keep discussion civil. I will not ask again."


What I've noticed with responses like these is it shows that the person "cannot get your goat," and may even diffuse the situation. This is a personal practice I've cultivated from years of being the black sheep on another forum.



3) Don't take things personally.

An all-too-common failing. Unless a resident puts up personal details from reality or goes on a tirade, attacks on your posts should be taken with a grain of salt and a discerning eye.

Speak to the issue, not to the people. I find general ideas to be far stronger than forum icons and popular figures. Usually, it's these ideas that made them icons in the first place!

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I feel the new rules are a start, but for them to be useful, people here need to genuinely show an interest in following them. And that will take some work.

I will also note that new rules are not going to change who we are as people, so don't expect this to be a perfect panacea. It's going to be business as usual. To affect that kind of change, we'd need a paradigm shift.... and, well, that's not what's happening here.

Personally my answer to this is a nice feature every forum has intact. Ignore. Use it or comment and get banned. Two rights don't make a wrong. Though yes a first time warning using your examples is good but I rarly see anyone ignoring trouble people. If they did there would be no need for these new measures.

This is my sentiment exactly. I do feel that banning someone permanently from using SL because of missteps in the forum is overly harsh. In world, you do not have an opportunity to address a huge swath of people all at once - your impact is minimal generally - which is one thing contributing to the friendlier tone in world - it is much more personal. To deny someone the chance of partaking in SL because they have run afoul of newly added forum rules is overreaching and I think will have a chilling effect. Ban them from the forums forever, fine, but I don't think an SL account should be taken away from someone for their actions here.

You think the bans would come out of nowhere, without previous warnings/suspensions?

I hope that everyone sees that the best policy is for people to excercise self restraint instead of depending on the Lindens to read every post. I really think the forum policy is very clear cut. Attack another posters IDEAS all you want (in a civil manner) but don't attack the poster by questioning his/her IQ level, morals, parental heritage, motives or anything else for that matter.

If you want to duke it out with someone on the net go to alt.flame but please don't bore the rest of us with your disputes. We really aren't interested.

a clever writer can write innuendo and sly comments that are insulting without being obviously so. in fact these kind of people will claim they are being polite and respectful.

this becomes a grey area, because intent is not always clear. but after a while patterns can be established.

Yes Stone I know that, being such a clever writer myself, and admit to doing it in the past but I swear I won't do it no more.

I'm going to bow out gracefully from the General Forum, until such a time I am absolutely sure that this new policy will not willfully be abused by individuals or groups of individuals for their own personal gain.

After reading literally 100's of posts in these forums and other SL forums I have come to a few simple conclusions that just do not sit well with me.

If enough ppl hit that abuse report button; I could not only lose my posting privileges but also my island. I know the Lindens do not have the time to read and follow up on every abuse report. I don't blame them for that. I do however feel strongly that that I do need to protect what is mine.

...and that is all she wrote.

Cat

EDIT: I would like to clarifiy losses IW: my island/my land, my friends, my creative outlet, my ability to bring new content to SL, and my standing in the community. All of which are not worth losing over any statement that could be abuse reported.

While I do not have a an island I would have to agree. My posting might just come down to "create post" and nothing more. I will dance just a bit longer though. Mom always said I liked to push nerves a tad further the needed.

I doubt we'll see many bans at all except in extreme cases. Banning is only one type of disciplinary action that will be taken and I'm sure it'll be a last resort for use only when behavior persists after informal warnings, formal warnings, and suspensions have failed.

I am sorry you have made this decision but I think as long as you follow the forum rules, your island would be safe. Plus you would receive adequate warning prior to the actual banning. That seems fair enough. If I was in doubt about my posts, and I did receive the warnings, I think then I would bow out. But that's just me.

Why is it so hard to post in the forums without attacking other people and I am not referring to the last few posts? I don't get it. Please don't tell me it is human nature because it isn't.

I am tired of beating around the bush on this issue and would really like an answer from whoever feels it is OK to trash other people in the belief that it somehow strengthens their own position.

I don't feel it's as cut and dried as this, but you're welcome to your opinion. I don't consider asking people to politely respect the topic "a wrong," and also refuse to use the "ignore" feature because of my views on censorship.

This does not mean I don't advocate selectively ignoring posts - I've done so multiple times. I personally prefer to diffuse situations where I can to keep certain topics meaningful. Since that doesn't apply to everyone, I'm leaving it as a personal suggestion.