Discuss New Forum Policy Here - Pt 2

Possibly the best post in this thread. As far as I'm concerned you hit every point 100%.

it may not have been sufficiently obtuse imo to avoid being potentially misread, but i tend to agree that the general positive perception of how things are handled by LL is perhaps at risk due to what may only be coincidental circumstance.

Let me clarify: I agree that it is doubtful that I would have one of my posts reported, or at least not many, and not by many people

And by the way, let me also clarify I did report two posts in the beginning of my forum life here, when they directly broke a rule that had JUST been reiterated by a mod, and I thought maybe it hadn't been seen. Turned out, though, that it really just didn't matter, I guess, cause nothing happened. Prior to that, I reported two posts in all my tenure at TSO, one for using visual imagery of murder in a signature that made my stay in the forums distressing, having been hugely distressed by that same murder at the time it originally happened, and being reminded of it every time I logged on was distressing; and the other one, I forget why.

But in general, that makes four post reportings in all my years of being online, and in three different games. Because I believe in letting people say what they want.

And I received one informal warning once, in the TSO forums for saying, in incredulity to someone, "Are you blind? Didn't you see . . ." and I had to go back and remove the phrase, "Are you blind?".

That's my history, and I find it unlikely that (a) anyone would be gunning for me here very hard or (b) even if they were, that they would be successful.

But two points:

First. my standards are such that I really don't care how likely this is to happen to me, I resent even the fact that some little pissant (can I say that?) I have never even met thinks he can threaten me with being banned for my posts. I resent further that any such individuals can feel further empowered now, with with not simply removing me from their earshot on the forums because they do not like my points of view, but also actually TAKE AWAY FROM ME THE GAME I PAY MY MONEY TO PLAY.

That the Lindens will allow them to have such influence - and don't tell me reporting someone's posts over and over has no influence, don't even TRY to tell me that - is insulting in the highest, and I'm not about to bend my language or change my viewpoints just to satisfy a handful of players on these boards plus one pissant, and never will. Thus, I withdraw from the general forums, and take my viewpoints elsewhere, where they should be safer, and where I can leave all this behind and be my nicer, normal self. I don't like to have to fight people. I like to like people, especially when I actually do like most of the people I'm fighting. In fact, I think what I'm doing would be a good idea for everyone who finds this all distressing; thank you, Catherine, for giving me an answer to this conundrum by your example.

Secondly, others are in the same boat, others who don't report posts, and they are at the same disadvantage. I see now that some have started AR'ing, and woah . . . yes, hey, it DOES work! Apparently someone reported Ulricha, probably someone who had previously, like me, been letting these things go. Because, you see, and this is so elementary the fact that any of you are going to such lengths to discount it is hugely laughable, they do not bother to investigate reports of abuse when they have received no report of abuse. Which is why you could do what you liked with me the first month I was here, since I would never report any of you.

What if I were to report people? I could have gotten ten of you easily, flat out easy. Maybe more. Just for the things you called me. I could have gotten DOZENS of you for flagrant violations every single day against those posters you dislike. i could have gotten ten, twenty of you yesterday, and I'm good at making cases. I think I once even said, you better hope I never start doing that. Well, now that the Lindens have put in this new thing, "with teeth" as you call it, I really don't think it's the likes of me who are shaking in their boots now.

Who needs to be shaking in their boots? Do you think I am actually ever going to shake in my boots over anything I say here, about this game? Or over the fact that one or another of you could actually think it within the remote realm of possibility of being banned without concerted effort on the part of many? Preceded and precipitated, of course, by weeks and months of psychological warfare from thread to thread that eventually breaks down the one, from fighting off the many. I've seen how it's done. I've lived through it myself.

It is a mistake to tie forum behavior to the ability to play the game. I'm not at very much risk personally, but, hey, some of you are.

It doesn't have to be me who is worried about being banned. It isn't about me. As long as I know it can be done to anyone on these forums, the threat is there to all of us. And as long as there are those like me, who cannot bring themselves to play the reporting game, then those who can have the advantage. I'm glad to see more like me going ahead and starting to report. I guess I will have to do my part in other ways.

Sometimes, though, I think about all the times I coulda . . . gotcha!

And if anybody decides to try to take the game itself away from my friend - and you know who you are - or even starts to LOOK to me like they are trying to do that, I can guarantee you that all my principles are gonna go right out the window, and it will be no holds barred. I will start returning some of the hell I've been dished out, times twenty, and do everything in my power to prevent that, even if we all go down in flames in the process.

coco

See other forums for my posts on other matters.

So we are all just 5 year olds and LL should just let things go the way it was?

I was afraid to post before, now I'm not. That is an improvement I think.

If they refused to act on the grounds that some people might misconstrue their actions, then they would be manipulated. Rumors shouldn't dictate policy, and it's nice to see that they don't.

I think my numerous posts have clarified the issue very well thank you. Do not post about another person. Post about their ideas instead. I really don't see the problem with this.

If someone feels it is ok to question another persons motives and so on I would like to hear their reasoning because I am having trouble understanding why this is even an issue.

You see an example of that in this thread, Susie. All this speculation about people collectively reporting for the sole purpose of getting rid of someone is a direct statement of claimed motive. I suppose you would have to ask those who keep purporting to know what has or has been not been reported, the motivations behind doing so, and the decisions made by the Lindens and how they made those decisions. Apparently the forum moderators are just sheep somehow that can be easily manipulated by a wild crowd.

All of this rhetoric about the forum mob coming for someone else now that one person has been silenced is getting really tiring. (that is not directed at you, Susie). It amazes me how little faith some people seem to have in the judgement of LL - they are apparently under the mind control of some nefarious group. Perhaps once we can get back to discussing ideas and improving SL instead of this endless cycle of recrimination and blame.

Folks can deny that forum clicques exist all they want, but they DO exist. Prok brought a lot of what happened onto himself, I do agree there. But that doesn't exonerate anyone for what they did to HIM.

Has everyone forgotten the Pathfinder incident on IRC? I sure haven't. So Prok is gone, Catherine has said she's not posting in general until she sees what's what, Coco has expressed her concerns, and so have many others.

One of several patterns here is that if anyone dares to agree with an "unpopular" opinion or poster, they're immediately either accused of being an alt or have their motives or intelligence questioned. And go ahead and quote and demand proof of that all you want - it happens, we all KNOW it happens, so please don't insult my intelligence by saying that it doesn't.

I've been accused many times of being Catherine's alt, Coco's been accused, and just in the past 24 hours Alexa was accused as well. Why? Because we spoke out or agreed wiht something that the cool kids didn't want to hear or admit to.

So take the Pathfinder incident, throw in Prok being perma-banned, and add a dash of new forum guidelines where the good ole AR button seems to be the key factor, and yep - I'm worried.

I think the last post illustrates my point.

No offense taken Cristiano because anyone coming after me wouldn't be in their right mind. I happen to agree with what you said.

I must be naive because I don't see any accusations or negative personal comments. All I see is a nice civil discourse.

I understand the fear some are expressing but for the most part I think it shoud be a wait and see state of mind instead of an outright condemnation of policy.

If someone can really show proof of a conspiracy among Linden Labs employees, then I think we all should just close our accounts. What would be the point of supporting such a vile company. If they really had evil motives, I think they would be in a different industry.

I hope I'm not discounting how anyone feels, I know you have your reasons and I wish there was a medium ground in which we could all meet and just enjoy this game I love so much.

I for one agree with the new rules. It lets people know there will be consequences for both actions in world and words in the forums.

I imagine things will be harshly enforced for a few weeks till everyone learns to play nice in the forums ... nicer than things have been at least. In a month or so, I'm sure the hand of justice will much less heavy.

I don't think anyone mentioned anything about conspiracy among forum moderators, April.

I am getting sick and tired of having words put into my mouth, like "cabal" which I never said, and neither did anyone besides certain people above.

This trying to turn this around into some condemnation of the Lindens really, really angers me.

We have legitimate points of view and yet again, certain people think they can just TALK us into being viewed as total idiots, with all kinds of ulterior motives.

I've had it with it.

I've been insulted enough in smug, self-righteous terms.

I'm starting AR'ing now. There are about five or six things I've seen go by today that deserve it.

coco

Never mind. I just let you get my goat again is all. (Not you, April.) I'm not going to do it. Remind me to stay out of this cesspool in future.

P.S. Not even Ellie, below, will I lower myself to report. Carry on. Amongst your miserable selves.

I really don't think you should be posting like this while your main alt is banned, "coco".
Or is the ban over ?

Coco,

Multiple posts in this thread say either directly or indirectly that the moderators of the forum are letting themselves be influenced by a group of players - you yourself said it here:



Buster Peel also made an impassioned plea on the same topic, and went so far as to portray Jeksa as some kind of unwitting weapon being used to fight out grudges. No one said you used the word cabal, and it was not attributed to you. However, you have often spoken on a repeated theme of a group of players doing this, a group doing that - this powerful group that has influenced the Lindens and won the battle, the forums, whatever. All of that is summed up in the word cabal, and why I used it. It wasn't directed at you, but it is not an insult either.

You do have legitimate points of view, and so do the people responding to you. Expressing your thoughts doesn't mean people won't push back on those ideas. Apparently when someone does push back, or even dispute what you are saying, then you are just being dismissed as stupid or your ideas are unimportant. I don't think that is a fair assessment at all - an open exchange of ideas does come with criticism of those ideas. If you are going to assert that a certain thing is happening, then be prepared for an equally strong assertion that it isn't happening if someone else feels that way.

Just a reminder to everyone: please focus on discussing the issue at hand. This thread threatens to become derailed again.

In my opinion, the old system simply wasn't working. Slander and vitriolic invective were rampant because the line had become blurred. Sporadic enforcement had caused the line to become blurred. As I see it, there were only two choices: obliterate the line or clearly define it. The former would have resulted in a forum in which anarchy prevailed, while the latter threatens to become an environment in which free discourse is stifled. I'm not sure exactly which environment would have been better, but I do know that the previous policy wasn't cutting it. People were free to stand right at the line antagonizing others, and then to call foul when their victims reacted. It was the worst kind of behavior, which made it practically impossible to engage in actual discourse.

One of the greatest problems still persists: people are unable to abandon their personal and petty conflicts, and discuss issues. Time and time again, I would respond to posts by certain individuals without any malice and with the earnest desire to discuss the issue, only to be rebuffed by insults, insinuations, and assassinations of my character. This is absolutely anathema to a functional forum.

However, I'm going to reserve my final personal judgement of the policy until I've seen whether it's truly effective. It has the potential to clean things up, but I'm not sure if it's going to be the panacea some think it'll be.

a post like this makes me wonder how subtle is too subtle.

a number of questions come to my mind (besides relevancy). guess i need to read those new rules.

Stop it - Cocoanut is not an alt, quit trying to dimiss her as one.

I do believe this is called shooting one's self in the foot.

You put it very nicely Ardith and I couldn't agree more. I am still waiting to hear from the ones who think it is OK to go after other posters on a personal level and why they think this is just fine. I have yet to hear any justification for this.

Agreed.

Let's just chalk this up to the ancient saying "people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" even if they live in the land of oz.

I haven't heard anyone say it was ok, and that is not what this thread is about. It is about the policy. If you want to solicit motivations, perhaps start a thread about it.

To echo another poster - people who think it's ok to attack others either don't think or don't realize that they are, so you're very unlikely to get the response you are demanding.

Still waiting....

But please Coco, AR if you really see a problem. Maybe I'm the one that is wrong and if your vision is better than mine that we need you to report. I see it as a part of SL forum and now in world civic duty. Please don't abstain because you think you might harm someone. You will help the rest of us who don't see it.

And besides, I don't think any one here is really miserable, we're just discussing. I'm sorry you see it that way.

If I have posted something offensive, I would see you as doing me a favor by AR'ing me. It would give me a better understanding of how to modify my behavior in the forums. I want and I'm sure most people here want to be good Forum and SL Citizens. Help us and in that way you would be helping yourself and the community as a whole.