Your Real-Life Personal Information

I'm a firm believer in minimizing my risks. I guess that's where we differ in our opinions. I'll be sending you a flaming bag of dog poo to your door step now (I just Googled you and got all your personal info).

It is already a major issue. It is so precisely because protection of anonymous communication is part and parcel of a larger interest in protecting freedom of speech in the digital domain.

There are a host of things that simply would not happen, types of speech that would be effectively 'chilled' if privacy and protection of anonymity were not included in protected free speech.



Wrong. People have the right to communicate anonymously. AND they have the right to have their anonymity protected, ESPECIALLY when that anonymity is part of a contract (i.e., LL TOS).



All due respect, what you believe is irrelevent. They are demonstrated to be protected information when given to credit bureaus, government agencies, state agencies, and every other means of disclosing them.

The ONLY time they are not protected is if you choose to post them in what you know is a public venue.

No one else has the right to post or repost your personal information without your explicit permission. This has been upheld time and time again. I suggest you do the research.



Irrelevent. The Internet makes access much more available and thus, the potential for abuse is much higher and for that reason alone, violations in its domain should be taken more seriously.



Make you a deal, Chip.... let it happen to you, let someone stalk you for months, let someone bust into your house and rape you over a weekend, let someone ruin your credit, your professional reputation, and your life just because someone posted your personal information on a message board. THEN come talk to me about how unjustified and irrational it is to want personal information kept private.

Because until you can speak from experience, you are just talking to talk.

edit: In re-reading the above, I find it sounds much more like an attack at you than I intend. My apologies for that, it is not my intent to attack you. I'm simply trying to stress the reality that it is not irrational nor unjustified to expect your personal information to remain private, and that actions like this are not merely 'to be expected' and tolerated.

It is the blasse' attitude about it that makes me angry... saying 'its no big deal' minimizes the very real harm that many have come to due to it.

A big part of SecondLife's attraction is the ability to fail.

You think I'd go around with my contrarian opinions in RL? Yeah right! No, I keep them to myself and politely smile and nod at idiots.

You have to in order to survive.

Not so in SecondLife.

If Chip says something I think is stupid, I can freely correct him.

Agreed, his penchant for personalizing the discussion and attacking people's character is a step too far even when you have anonyminity at your disposal, but at least we should be free to express abstract ideas and concepts that piss everyone off.

If suddenly I needed to start to worry what impact this might have on my real life (wife, children, etc) I would shut the fuck up. Why risk a great and convienent life just because I happen to have a few strong opinions?

No, I'd rather be able to continue to piss people off by invalidating their nonsense and not worry one iota what might happen to me in the real world.

However, there is no excuse for attacking people individually. I am all in favor of banning / censorhip in these cases.

However, let's just make sure we keep things private and not have a chilling affect on our ideas.

Cienna, I'm not trying to minimize these things at all, truly. What I'm trying to do is get people to consider risks online in a rational proportion to risks offline. If what you described happened to you that's awful, and no one should have to suffer such a crime, but (and I don't mean this to be insensitive in any way) bad things happen in every medium and every public square. The risk is inherent in sharing the planet with other human beings. There's no doubt that the internet is an enabling technology for certain types of predatory behavior, but the anonymity you seek to protect for your own safety is the same anonymity that makes people more inclined to stray from civilized to predatory behavior. I believe those two opposites cancel each other out and what we're left with are the same risks we face in general, everywhere, all the time.

Punishment doesn't measure success in this case. That's gauged by avoiding a repetition of the behavior.

Apples to oranges. Someone who reads an editoral written by me in the paper is much less likely to be able to ferret out who I am, where I live, or where I work simply by virture of having my name. That just isn't the case on the Internet.



No, it is not and it is that catagorization that I take issue with... it is not the shield of anonymity that predators rely upon, it is the ignorance of their victims they rely upon... and in most cases, ignorance works in their favor. People who do things like this may or may not think they are 'safely unknown', but they certainly think the person they are doing this to has no recourse.

There ARE avenues of recourse if/when someone maliciously plasters your personal information online. There ARE avenues of recourse if/when you are presented in a false light, or deliberately subjected to attacks intended to humiliate you publicly or harm your reputation, business, or ability to enjoy a private life.

It is important to know these things, and to understand that you do not have to be a victim.

I'm not so sure. When I write editorials I submit them under my real name and city of residence where I happen to be listed in the phonebook.



We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I believe they rely more on their ability not to get caught which is aided more by their anonymity than by the mental accumen of their intended victim.



Yes, of course, but now we're talking about libel and slander which are a related but different issue.



I absolutely agree. I think statistics would also show that there's no good reason to live in fear even if people know who you are. It will always come down to luck of the draw.

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is your simply wrong. I am a security professional and work with these issues everyday. It is the ignorance of the victim that plays the largest part in online crime, from anything to poorly patched systems to people careless with their private information.





Go look at the FTC website to see how rapidly identity theft alone is growing in the US. It's not luck of the draw and that naive attitude is exactly why people become victims.

I'm not saying that these things aren't risks. I'm simply saying that they are grossly overstated. Your best chance of getting your credit card number stolen is when you use it at a store. Do you still use credit cards at stores despite the risk? Yep.

Over 40,000 people died in car accidents last year in the US. Are you afraid of your car? Do you avoid driving it to mitigate the risk? Nope. It's a hell of a lot more dangerous to get in your car than it is to publish your name and address on the internet yet no one will admonish you for your carelessness for driving to work every day.

Life is full of risks. They need to be looked at rationally in terms of their relative danger.

"It's a hell of a lot more dangerous to get in your car than it is to publish your name and address on the internet yet no one will admonish you for your carelessness for driving to work every day."

I don't know how many times I've come across this piece of illogic in my lifetime.

Allow me to point out, once again, that there is no analogy here. The difference is in needed versus needless risks.

Driving to work is something one needs to do to survive. Putting one's name and address on the internet for all to see is, in most cases, not something one needs to do. (And in the cases of celebrities, controversial or other high-profile people, something one specifically should NOT do.)

Your chances of dying in a car wreck on the way to work may well be quite a bit higher than your chances of dying from putting your name and address on the Internet.

But do you actually NEED to put your name and address on the Internet in the first place? Or to make sure everyone in your online game knows who you are and where you live?

It is not logical to compare the statistical chances of dying from <whatever risky behavior> to the statistical chances of dying from a necessary behavior, and to then formulate an opinion whether engaging in various behaviors is wise based only on the death rates of each. In behaviors necessary for survival, the benefits obviously far outweigh the risks. In other behaviors, there is no demonstrable benefit at all.

You might run, say, a .002 risk of dying in a car some day on your way to work. Yet, you need to go to work. Whereas you might run only a .00001 risk of dying because you (or someone else) posted your name and address on the internet. However, the latter risk is easily reduced to zero because it need not be done at all, whereas the alternative to not driving to work is severe.

Hence, the lack of admonishment from people for driving one's car to work, and the presence of admonishment from people for putting one's name and address on the internet for no good reason - or for walking on the edges of precipaces when there is a safe footpath nearby - or choosing to take a route through a dark alley filled with thugs when there is a lighted boulevard with police presence available - or taking any number of other easily-avoided and unnecessary risks that offer no particular benefit.

Not only would it be taking an unnecessary risk for no benefit to make sure everyone in your online game knows who you are and where you live, it is an unconscionable act to increase someone else's risk by knowingly divulging information about them without their consent.

coco

How is it illogic when its the truth...you also stand more of a chance falling and dying in your home...specifically in the bathroom.



Really? So by your thought process if all cars cease to work tomorrow all people who drive to work will no longer go to work? I wonder how people survived before cars were invented. People don't need to write their names in concrete either but it seems they still do.


No one needs do a thing in life but be who they are and die...everything else is filler...what your needs are and what my needs are are different as well as everyone elses in the world .



You have to define need and risk. I SCUBA dive ...I don't need to and the depths I go to are and can be quite risky....but I know what I'm doing and thats a risk I take even though I don't need to



Not driving to work is severe? you need a new job.

You are 100% wrong on this point. With the adv ent of the internet and the possibilities it brought proffesionals from every feild have used this medium. There are college courses online....online training...some people have published major works on the internet. The internet is used more for business today than for fun. By your reasoning there is no need to have your name published in a scientific magazine either...imagine what would be lost if people didn't put their names out there.



I admonish people driving everyday...I have to use my truck to do it to sadly

Yes and we could all sit at home and do nothing worrying about these things and die of a massive corronary while watching American Idol too...there is one given....everyone of us will die and we can't stop it.




While I agree with the fact that no one should be divulging someone elses information...saying that having your information on the net is not necessary or wrong is very small thinking. You choose not to because you see a risk you arent willing to take...wheras driving a car ( which is also not necessary ) is a risk you are willing to take....everything is a risk....a woman walked outside last year and was killed 20 feet from her front door by a chunk of frozen shit that came from an aeroplane....even going outside is a risk.

As long as we're taking the scenic route, I'm going to mention something relevant that's been on my mind lately. I think an important part of what makes losing your anonymity in an environment like this risky or dangerous is the imbalance; the other party is still anonymous while you are not. I deal with potential wackos every day in my real life, with basically no anonymity, but they are also dealing with me with no anonymity of their own. For instance, today an essentially random person is going to come into my house to install something, and I can't say I feel particularly threatened. After all, I know this guy's name, I know where he works. If something expensive disappears from my house today, the police will be contacting him. And in a world where identity means something, casting aside his old one to become a fugitive would be a high cost to pay.

Overall I've started to wonder if the net effect of all this anonymity is more risk, rather than less, in certain environments. I wonder what something like Second Life might be like if the identity of everyone present was verified and open. Even if it were an identity that only existed on the net, but which you couldn't abandon. Maybe a place like that would be less risky. For one thing, people might be less likely to poke each other with sticks. I don't know, I'm just ruminating. (And I'm absolutely not suggesting SL drop anonymity!)

I'm glad I got that off my chest. Carry on

Talen, the leaps of illogic in your reply are so monumentally numerous it would take me hours and possibly ten pages of writing to address them all, which would be excessive, even for me.

To address just one, however - that of your scuba diving. Notice I specifically qualified my statement by saying "or taking any number of other easily-avoided and unnecessary risks that offer no particular benefit."

That was specifically to cover things like your scuba diving, which clearly has many benefits for you, which far outweigh the risks of scuba diving for you.

As for the dozens of other flights and connecting flights of illogic in your post, I'm not going to mess with them. Excuse me for sounding rude and dismissive, but I'm sure others get what I'm saying, and if you don't, I sincerely suggest you just go play elsewhere.

coco

Actually you are being quite rude and dismissive. What you posted is opinion not fact...what I posted was opinion not fact....illogical is when you think your opinion is fact.

Your claim that driving is a necessary risk for survival is illogical When Cars are a recent invention in the grand scheme of things and its clearly evident that people have worked for thousands of years without the aid of cars...there are people today that don't use cars for work...but this is your opinion and this is a risk you see as necessary... I don't. It is also clearly evident that more people die in car accidents each year than people who post their real life information on the internet.

are you on the level? i can understand role-play in the forum. is that's what this is?

my tower accomplished several things including all three of my initial goals. other than pissing people off with ponderous overly long prose what have you accomplished?

my new tower is at 140,130 in agapema. overtly, i'm simply selling cookies. i bet you'll think this one's about griefing too.

"Actually you are being quite rude and dismissive."

You're right. I can act awfully arrogant and mean sometimes, especially in writing. I wouldn't act that nasty to your face, so it's hypocritical (and cowardly, really) for me to do that here. Guess I just get too full of myself and struck on myself sometimes, and I apolgize. Now matter how we disagree, I shouldn't blow myself up like that. People are more important to me than any of these ideas we discuss, and I need to remember that.

coco

18, going on 19 pages here? Diverting into issues on identity theft in general and traffic safety?

There's probably some value in these discussions. Maybe those who are carrying them on (as opposed to the original laundry-airing/feud/whatever; is it officially an ex-equus yet?) might wish to start a new thread. I only popped on here to see what on earth could be dragging this one out for so long and I'm not going to flip through to find exactly where it went "off topic."

Biff, this is the "Your RL Personal Information" thread not the "White Cubes of Death in the New World" or "Purple Cubes of Death in the New World" so let's take that discussion over there, please?

I never did hear the "fruits" of your "research". Did you post in that long thread and I missed it? Yes, I build "whinescrapers" as Vexx likes to call them, but they are important public records IMHO. I think building a god-awful ugly glowing spinning viewblocking tower is a disservice to simkind. Silly me. I think I have a lot of support in that perception and it isn't a "imposition of my taste" to think that. I'm all for educational projects in SL. What did you prove? That people were forced to lower their property prices and property value sank? Well, Buster Peel proved that in 24 hours with his experimental Cube of Death -- why did you take weeks? But...over to that other thread now....

Yes, this thread has gone off track and you might want to go to the other one called PUBLIC APOLOGY in this section where Pathfinder Linden has made a crystal-clear readout on these issues.

And I do one to point out that this isn't a "laundry-airing" or "feud" but a clear-cut TOS violation that was judged appropriately as such.

What a disturbing thread this has become. Prokofy and its alts are weaving multiple independent battles with several different people simultaneously. All of them have the same unforgiving irrational acerbic tone with posts alternating between short jabs and long winding tomes. It's almost like participants are unwittingly battling the arms of some sort of sociopathic octopus that exists only to inflict its dementia on the others.

Enjoy.

~Ulrika~

Ulrika, as any Linden could prove to you by looking at the names and addresses and credit cards of all the people posting in this thread, and their ISPs and RL locations (and maybe call them up for good measure just to get a voice check?) none of the people posting on this thread are my alts.

I know that must horrify you...that there are people out there who believe as I do, who may not like me or what I post...but who get the broader principles at stake here. They come from a world that isn't yours, that isn't the world you all have maintained in here on your subsidized wiki ranch for 2 years, but it's a world that is a healthy one because it means the game is growing and more common sense and less socialist utopianism is coming into it.

I'm not a sociopathic octopus, although that might be a good description of any forum flame exchange because people just battling it out without feeling any sense of consequences.

I don't like being called "it". "It" is what socialists and fascists called people and sent them to death camps. Please don't do that. I'm a person.

Ulrika, you might want to see someone about you cephalopod fixation

Otherwise, I have no further comment. Someone should start a new thread as this one is tainted, nay, poisoned. I cannot see worthwhile discussion coming from it.

omglomloaorofmalol i cant login can u

And this matter is in the hand of the lindens and the parties involved now....so why keep rehashing it.....its over.