Your Real-Life Personal Information

I haven't seen any of that behavior in SL. And as for #6, he wasn't accusing you of that. He only said that it *might* be considered dishonest if you (generic) got into a serious relationship with someone on here that was leaking into RL and you (generic) were lying to them about it.

Again, not everything is about you Prokofy.

Quite right, I do agree that many of your points are completely valid. Just out of proportion, that's all.


I think "Avatar murder" is a bit of a stretch. But there is no question that when people in the game start to associate an avatar with a particular real-life person, the avatar is ruined. It isn't an avatar any more.

Among other things, SL is a role playing game. If the real personality behind the avatar persona is revealed to other players, especially when the role player is really different from the avatar (woman playing a male avatar, for example), the whole idea of role playing breaks down. You cease to see the role, and you see the person behind the role. So for that person, with that avatar, the game is OVER.

The same goes for alts. When people know that two avatars are played by the same player, that ruins one of them at least. I will say that anyone, myself included, who posts prolifically in the forums will have a difficult time role playing in the game, because the more you post here, the more your real personality comes through. So keep your alts out of the forums.

Buster

Some good points there Buster, but for me, knowing the RL gender or even the name behind the AV makes no difference. I know several SL-ers RL gender and RL names, phone numbers, etc. I still associate that person with the AV, not the AV with that person.

For example, I know of a few players who have female AV's and are male IRL. I still think of them as female and refer to them as 'she/her'.

I can definately see where the illusion might be ruined and/or changed, but not always.

I'm unclear as to what would be lost in knowing some RL information on a particular AV, which is what I was hoping Prokofy would elaborate on - at least in that particular case. For me, role playing is role playing. I have friends that role play IRL and I see little difference here, except an extension of the illusion brought forth by the nature of the game.

You know something, Juro? I don't know about you and everybody else, but I'm pretty much *done* discussing my RL and my SL life with a lot of hostile assholes on the forums?

If you really care about me -- and you don't -- you'll come and talk to me in the game, and get to know me. But I suspect what's really at issue for you, as for many is your overwhelming need *to be right*. I don't suffer from that sick need like so many, so I'm happy to take risks in making arguments here, and I'm happy to let them have the last word if it makes them feel they are superior, since they obviously have so little else in their lives, first, second, or third, to sustain any other positive notion of themselves.

pandastrong couldn't agree more:

The discussion of any player's gender irl, supposed gender irl, apparent gender irl, guessed-at gender irl, implied as different irl from his- or her- avatar gender, or any other variation whatsoever of presumed rl gender or "accused" rl gender when that player has not specifically made his or her rl gender public information, is, in my opinion, continued and repeated breaking of the TOS protection of privacy clauses.

Any and all discussion of any player's rl gender in any form - as opposed to that of someone who has divulged their real life gender and/or doesn't mind having that known and/or has no role playing avatar dependent on that gender - is breaking the TOS.

The fact that it is still going on in this thread, repeatedly and with impunity, is surprising and appalling to me.

I am a female avatar and I am a female in real life. I tell you that here, and I make that public information about my real life. I want everyone to know (if they are interested) that I not only always play female avatars in this and other games, but I actually am female in real life.

Because I have just told you that, you may feel free to bruit that information about. You can refer to it any time you like. There is no TOS violation in that whatsoever. Being female irl is a fact that I WISH other players to know.

To try to ferret out a player's rl gender in order to post it to the world at large is a violation of the TOS position regarding privacy. To assume/allege/infer/imply that a player's rl gender is different from what that player's avatar is - i.e., to virtually ACCUSE another player of being a different gender from what his/her avatar appears to be, when that player (unlike myself) would prefer that whether he/she is male or female in real life remain unknown - is in my opinion as severe a TOS violation as any other posted information regarding location, vocation, or any other piece of real life information which was not purposely posted in SL by the player himself.

To CONTINUE to do so despite warnings from the moderator not to post real life information - which would also, by extension, include any further challenges regarding that real life information, much less discussion of the ethics of a particular player's desiring not to disclose that information - amounts to harassment and nothing less than numerous and REPEATED violations of the TOS. With impunity.

Each instance where this has occured is another instance of a TOS violation, and together they amount to repeat violations.

No player should be allowed to guess/accuse/assume/disclose/challenge or whatever ANYTHING regarding another player's real life, be it gender, occupation, geographical location, age, handicap, religion - you NAME IT - when that player himself or herself has not specifically and purposely made it known. It should not be done at all. Much less repeatedly.

Whether or not a player is the gender of his or her avatar is, in the first place, NOT YOUR BUSINESS. If you desire to make it your personal business, perhaps because you have become enamored with a player, that's one thing. But even then, it is NOT YOUR RIGHT to discuss it in public on these forums. It is AGAINST THE TOS to do so.

I believe that I have now made it clear that I consider any further dislosures or insinuations or assumptions or accusations speculating as to the gender of an individual player who did not specifically make it known - or as to their work, location, etc. - are nothing more but repeated violations of the TOS.

I hope I have made it clear, anyway. The reason I go to such an extent here to make this clear is that it makes me remarkably and incredibly angry - as angry as a person like me ever gets over this sort of online game thing, anyway. It makes me angry because because I consider privacy intrusions of this type to be possibly the single greatest danger to all players in online gaming. This supposed "outing" - and, worse, the CONTINUED supposed "outing"attempt STILL going on here - is the single most disturbing thing I have ever encountered in any of my online gaming experience or online experience in general.

If people are allowed to continue unchecked in this thread in the business of posting/guessing at/challenging the personal information of a player when that player has NOT posted that information as public knowledge and did NOT wish it to be so, repeatedly and with apparent impunity, then I will be forced to conclude that this game's TOS protection of our personal privacy is not worth the paper it is printed on.

coco

You type too much, so I think you're actually a man in rl instead of a woman like you said!

*Lianne's door gets kicked down and heavily armed Lindens handcuff her and take her away*

[southpark] What!? I thought this was America! [/southpark]

When I was in TSO, someone found some info on me by exploring the page where my avatar on the forum was linked to. It was creepy and I told the person so. Then I fixed the link so the info was no longer available. That seemed to solve the whole problem.

I guess I should have been more ballastic. Oh well.

Get your feathers down, Prokofy... my comment was not directed toward you. I got your invite to join you inworld for that discussion, which I'll gladly take you up on. Don't confuse my dislike for your comments on this thread as me needing 'to be right' or 'caring for you'. I'm not right all the time, I love to be proven wrong, and I never said I didn't like you Prokofy.

You are, for some unknown reason, uncomfortable discussing here - so I'll come talk to you inworld. Will I need to sign and NDA?

Different people are looking for different things out of the experience. Some people put their RL photographs and RL jobs in their profiles. There are threads in the forums where people post their RL photos, pets, pictures of their houses, etc. For many people, this ISN'T a role playing game, its a creative game. For others its all about social interaction, and they may even feel that knowing more about the people you are dealing with enhances the game.

The point is that just because YOU don't role play deosn't mean that others don't want to. SL is a fantastic fantasy world, and if RL intrudes, it ruins it completely for some people. (By "role play", I don't mean in the sense of acting out a scene from a play, and then going back to "normal" afterwards. I mean living the role, for an extended period of time. Like years. This is, after all, Second Life.)

I really believe you have to respect the wishes of the other players, and not assume that everyone has the same value system, or that everyone is looking to get the same experience or is playing for the same reasons.

Buster

I completely agree. That different take on SL is why I wanted to speak to Prokofy.. If I'm to attempt to understand a differnent, sometimes opposing, viewpoint, the best way for me is to speak to someone who holds that viewpoint.

To elaborate on my 'role playing is role playing' comment, unless you have your RL name as your AV name (if possible, given the restricted last name selection) and are totally open about your RL, it's role playing. There may be varying degrees of role playing, but it's still playing a role other than 'you'.

Again, this is just my take on it - which is probably wrong, but hey.

I'm a RL male who uses a female av 90% of the time. Many people think I'm gay. One person is convinced I'm a RL transvestite. I couldn't care less. People are free to think whatever they like. I hardly think that qualifies me as an intolerant and uncreative sexist Your comment about avatar murder is preposterous and I defy you to tell us what real harm has been done to you and how your second life has been "ruined." Rather than address any of the issues I raised you instead just strung together a bunch of ad hominems.

And coco, please find where anyone in this thread after Nolan's deleted post has stated what Prokofy's RL gender is. Is having a discussion about gender in generic terms now against the TOS too?

Welcome to molehill mountain.

Someone told me in world Prok's gender over a month ago, they let it slip with the use of pronouns. It didn't matter to me then and it doesn't matter now. Should I have reported this person?

No, that's not, April. The issue at hand - which somehow keeps getting lost over and over - is that you are not supposed to post rl information to the forums. Nor would you be allowed to post in your profile, for instance, something like, "I found out that Whadda Phuqtard. . . " haha I love that name, I just found it in another thread and now I get the chance to use it ". . . is actually a female irl".

And I imagine you would not be allowed to mount a well-organized, malicious word-of-mouth campaign in game regarding real life particulars which a player had never publicized himself, though that would be harder to track and prove. All that, though, is different from everyday, non-malicious conversation. No one is suggesting anything draconian; just that the TOS be observed as far as comments in print and in public are concerned.

Chip, I will now go back to find those quotes I was objecting to (after the initial deleted post and the subsequent deleted references to those posts in other posts) for you. And, by the way, one person's "molehill" is another's hot button, and for me, invasions of privacy contrary to TOS are, I suppose, my hot button.

coco

Actually..you're not supposed to post it in the forums without permission, but you are also not supposed to reveal it in-world without permission either, so basically this person letting Prok's RL identity slip in-world is just as guilty as Nolan. So..I say the firing squad for both. We can use nerf guns, and blindfold the firing squad instead of the condemned. Should be fun...

1. "Prokofy's identity was not revealed in this thread, ever. The only possibly sensitive information that was revealed was Prok's real life gender. How can having your gender revealed be a problem unless you are actively engaged in deceiving people? It seems odd to me that we seek to protect the ability to deceive as some sacred right and want to string up someone who revealed what should be a completely innocuous bit of factual information. There's no doubt it was against the rules, but I can't help feeling that there's something very backwards about it all."

Brings up AGAIN the question of real life gender.
Implies that the in-game gender is the opposite of the rl gender.
"Reveals" real-life gender yet again.
Thus states again, in effect, what the real-life gender of the person (allegedly) is.
Gives new reader the opportunity to read what has previously been deleted and no longer available.

Repeats the original TOS violation as concerns the posting of a player's alleged rl information, in this case, regarding gender.

2. "So I guess according to your calculus that kind of slander is a far less serious crime than revealing someone's gender?"

Sorry for doing this piecemeal, but it's easier than going back and looking and trying to get them all in one thread. It's not fun going back and looking, though, and I don't claim to be getting them all here.

I notice now, though, that both of these so far come from you, Chip.

As to the one above:

Again, the post quoted above states AGAIN a player's supposed rl gender, by stating that the rl gender HAS BEEN REVEALED.

This post clearly assumes what the individual's rl gender is, and puts that presumed knowledge on a thread in a public forum for all to read. (My even referencing it is, in my opinion, skirting the edges of the TOS.)

Again, we are in the territory of claiming - YET AGAIN - to have knowledge of a player's real life information, and baldly posting what that information (allegedly) is, once again. Again, this is a TOS violation.

3. "Er, yeah... because we all know that having someone reveal your gender is the same as murder. "

Again. And this is from you again, I see. I am stopping here finding these things.

Someone help me with my words here, trying to explain this.

It goes something like this:

1. "Hey! She's a man irl!"

2. Mod: This post is deleted due to posting of personal information.

3. "Yeah, but you know, now that we all know she's a MAN in real life . . ."

4. "And surely there can't be anything wrong with just happening to mention that THAT THERE PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OVER THERE is actually a MAN IN REAL LIFE!"

5. "Surely the fact that we have NOW REVEALED that SHE IS ACTUALLY A MAN irl isn't tantamount to avatar murder!"

etc. etc.

Repeated TOS violations.

coco

For those who haven't figured it out, Cocoanut Koala is Prokofy's alt.

~Ulrika~

P.S. - One more thread in the series needs to be locked Jeska.

Chip, I was thinking, while I did laundry. It would be really terrific if you would go back and delete those references I quoted above, then I would go back and delete my quoting of them, and also I would delete the long post I made where I expressed my dismay about this.

Would you be willing to do that with me? I think it would be good, and would go a long way toward showing that we can work together on these things to keep our community good and all of us happy.

Whatcha think?

coco

I'm confused, I thought it was Prok who brought it to the forums?

Coco, if Prok really wanted to protect his privacy about it he would never have made an issue of it in the forums to begin with. The proper course of action would have been to let the Lindens handle the original abuse reports and not bring it to the forum. I consider it an attempt to smear a particular someone that hasn't worked out exactly as planned. I reject any notion that any of my postings in this thread are a TOS violation as I have never once stated what I blieve Prok's gender to be. Furthermore, I seriously doubt that anyone actually cares what Prok's gender is in world or out and if they're the same or different. I think the points I raised and questions I asked were valid and, in the context of this discussion, important. I appreciate the spirit in which you make the request but do not feel obliged to comply. My sincere apologies for that. Prok has stated throughout the two threads on this issue that he/she brought it to the forums as a kind of community service to demonstrate the importance of keeping these matters private... and by not keeping it private had things aired here that he'd have preferred not to have aired. It's an error of judgement that perhaps others can learn from still. If you don't want your dirty laundry known, don't air it in the forum. Raising the issue merely invites discussion and speculation. Finally, since I don't know who originally did the research or how accurate it is, I'm still not clear on what gender Prok actually is in RL, nor do I care in the least. Sorry if that sounds unsympathetic, but in all honesty, it is. Even if I deleted my posts, others will just connect the dots and make the same assumptions I have... right or wrong. If we end up in a situation where people are afraid to use pronouns then what kind of world do we have?

OK, well, it was just a thought.

coco

I know Coco, and like I said, I appreciate the spirit in which you made the request. Sorry to be a hard ass about it. This whole thread with the exception of pathfinder's excellent summary of the policy should probably be nuked.

The topic of privacy is very important to Linden Lab and I encourage further discussion about this topic both on these forums and in-world. But, this thread has definately seemed to reach a conclusion and is being closed.