Do you support a Grid-Wide Sales Tax to Fund Events?

Persephone,

While we may not agree on the tax issue, I like your persistance and open mind. Keep at it and a solution will present itself.

Onieronaut Escher's Carnival charged a hefty price per ticket, ($500 or $1000) and many of us bought several tickets at a time, and the event always had a great turnout. He provided interesting and amusing content, and we were happy to compensate him for it. Why I would pay $1000 for someone to fling me violently out of a chair, I don't know, but I did, every time.

And, indeed, I think it has. An organized sponsorship system into which businesses may opt seems to be the solution that has shaken out thus far.

Personally, I'd be happy to shell out L$500 to L$1000 a week to sponsor a different, neat event that would display a sign advertising my business. I think plenty of others would too. The money isn't much to each sponsor, but for the events seeking sponsorship, it'll go a long way. String together a few sponsors and suddenly you have L$5000 to work with for your now mega-event.

The money still isn't free. People organizing events will have to "sell" their event to potential sponsors. But that's a good thing, I think.

The least I ever paid Oneironaut for one of those events was $5,000L. Great fun!

In fact, I'm going to take this a step further and put my money where my mouth is. If there's anyone reading this thread right now who would like the sponsorship of Templar Botworks up to L$1000, feel free to IM me in game. If it looks like you have a solid event planned and that the exposure will be beneficial to me, we'll make a deal.

IM me in-world if you're interested.

I think the opt in suggestion (not only mine, I think Forseti suggested something similar ages ago, but the thread and interest died and those who vowed to support either didn't or got tired of too many people asking, whatever) I think this can work, BUT it needs an independent body to organize it and to award funds.

Otherwise, if it is just one on one with events venues owners running around begging for sponsorship, it still doesn't solve the problem of putting the events host (who works hard for her money) in the position of having to beg each event for each sponsorship ad infinitum.

Also, an independent granting agency that could start this thing would have less accusation of favouritism. It isn't appropriate for every venue to have advertisements everywhere. I started adding commercialism to the SPA in order to make ends meet a little with the idea that if i gave space to people to sell their stuff I could recoup on donations and traffic. I lost some old customers who resented the commercialism. I gained new ones. I think it is not going to work for every event to have advertising at the site, however.

I do like the idea of the Free Vendor Lottery that just happened to be an incentive for 3D content makers to contribute to an arts and culture fund and for an independent granting agency to distribute the funds (the grants awarders would have to be in no position to get those awards in order to be credible).

People can wait for a body to organize itself if they want.

In the meantime, I think folks who want results will start pounding the pavement and looking for solutions. I'm happy to sponsor any of those sorts of folks.

This thread proves one thing. That you can brow beat people and step on them so much that they will find something that is fundamentally against the laws of nature and everything just and right so acceptable that they will try and push it into any and every aspect of their lives without even thinking about how completely fucked up it is. Taxes? Are you people serious? Taxes to support bullshit fucking events. The day I am taxed for to support a Tringo event or a even a how to paint in PS event is the day I leave SL forever. You people should be ashamed. Taxes. Bleh.


Right now SL is so lagged it is insane to charge anyone to attend any event. When you get more than 5 avies together in any one place, the quality of the game goes to shit. I already pay enough to be lagged into oblivion, I'm not going to pay more.

Eboni, my adoration for your posting knows no bounds.

Why must we all be so selfish? Just because YOU would not use / enjoy event funding does not mean that there are others out there that would be truly happy with this type of setup. A small tax (1% or so) wouldn't hit businesses hard at all - and might contribute greatly to the overall quality and satisfaction level in SL among those who either cannot or chose not to content create.

Utilitarian Economics: If the aggregate utility (happiness in this case) exceeds the aggregate cost (the tax), the initiative is worthwhile. Of course, we would have to determine that the utility did indeed offset the cost, but assuming this could be done - there is a legitimate basis for this idea.

Any utilitarian economists out there?

Uh.

So people get to take my money by force because they can't figure out a means of making their "business" profitable?

I think not.

edit:

/me shrugs

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, right? I mean, that's what we're basically getting at here.

I would like you to start paying my Upload costs to make clothing. Many people enjoy my clothing, and shopping is one of the most frequently enjoyed tasks in SL, so it would be selfish of you to say no. Thank you.

For a start - I am not selfish. I have given, and continue to give, to many causes that I think are worthwhile.

Yes - even events.. In fact I offered financial and land support to a regular event that I don't even attend, but hear about second hand from other residents... Ironically it turns out that this event is actually doing BETTER since the change of systems, go figure..

What *I* am against is *YOU* telling me how I should support what *YOU* like in Second Life, and how I'm a some sort of bastard if I disagree.

I'm sorry - but I simply disagree. I think more good can be done by the herd thinning and encouraging people to support things they like and think are fun..

A few less XXX-Thongo-Sexi-Yardsale-Contests wouldn't make me cry either.

Siggy.

Thats not quite what I was getting at --> a utilitarian economist might look at your request and say the utility created does not offset the cost borne (since you would probably be the only one generating utility) and thus not a good foray.

From a utilitarian standpoint, the taxation idea may have merit.

The taxation has no merit to me, and since it is my money you're trying to volunteer, I say No.

If you want to spend your money to support events you don't attend, more power to you. If it's selfish of me to pay for my own fun but not everyone else's, then so be it. I will pay for their events when they pay for my uploads. That seems perfectly fair to me.

Exactly what went through my head as well.

The entire premise that this thread is built upon is total utter bollocks.

You want to take my profits away from creating CONTENT in exchange for thousands upon thousands of cookie-cutter hot body thing tringo contests? Fuck no.

If no one is paying ticket prices for your insipid events, then you are HOSTING THE WRONG EVENTS.

If every event is BDSM Slave Auction Tringo Thong Contest XXX, then you, as a businessperson, shouldn't be entering the already over-saturated market. Welcome to Economics 101. Supply and demand.

Don't take my profits away so that you can subsidize an already bloated and worthless industry. No amount of logic or arguing on your part will convince me that I should depart a percentage of my work into the Money Pit of Doom, further Tringoizing and sexualizing the already over-Tringoed and over-sexualized virtual world we all inhabit.

With all due respect, fuck you.



LF

Entertainment IS content.

coco

So are my buildings. Don't steal from Peter to pay Paul by forcing me to fork over my profits to fund a failing business model.

If no one is willing to pay for thong contests, then perhaps they aren't REALLY that entertaining?

LF

Only if it is entertaining. I challenge all the event people looking for welfare to charge admission to their events for a week. See if they can get people to pay $25L to attend a sexy thong contest. I can remember when people tried to charge $2L a card for Tringo people bitching and moaning. Everyone wants to be entertained but they arent even willing to pay a penny, they just want leech and suck money off other people.


If events are so entertaining, charge for the entertainment. If not do it out the kindess of your heart. Don't force other people to support your hobby.


The only events I go to on a regular basis are Fashion Shows. I would pay $100L for a fashion show. I would pay $1000L to attend a low lag fashion show. I expect to be paid $500L for attending a sexy avie contest because my avie is dead sexy, but I wouldn't pay $1L for admission. If The Edge was on fire I wouldn't piss on it to put it out.


See everyone has a different value system. There is built in support for events currently, just charge for them, if people are unwilling to pay, then your event sucks, try again. Why is this even a point of coversation?

Well, as I said, Lordfly, I didn't necessarily agree with the tax idea, and put down "undecided."

However, I think it is a good idea, even though it may not be a good idea, lol.

Certainly it has oodles of real world precedent in terms of the "overall good" or however somebody put it.

For example, a symphony and ballet are sponsored, government funded, and also charged for (a nominal entrance fee. considering overall costs, and programs are always in place for the underprivileged to attend without fee). The reason? No big city worth its salt doesn't have culture. Without culture, business won't come. Etc. etc. etc.

The city is also filled with all KINDS of other entertainment, at all kinds of prices - and much of it free, such as that put on by community recreation centers (which we pay for through taxes). Without these places to gather, to socialize, to play sports, be entertained, there is quality of life for a society. Without these things, business won't come, etc. etc. etc.

That's just fundamental, and the same sort of thing is going to happen - is busy happening NOW - on this game. Without things for people to do, there is . . . nothing to do! They will go to another game with more . . . ENTERTAINMENT.

Now, in terms of the current discussion, this is all kind of beside the point, if LL would reinstate subsidies. They have stated they will not. (Which I interpret as, "We will not until you either manage to dig yourself out of this hole somehow, or it is proven that entertainment isn't necessary in this game, or we start stagnating to the point that we will then feel it is necessary again.)

But bringing up this idea is kinda good cause it causes y'all to think of something you would hate even more than you hate event subsidies - being taxed yourselves for it, ha ha.

The event mentioned above - while I was able to be on the game, I looked up the individual Onieronaut Escher, and saw that he was a long-time member. I also noted that the entrance fee to his events (whenever they were) was way, way out of the pocketbook realm of the average player. I do believe.

In the case of David Pierce, on TSO, the charge wasn't really that high - about $800, I think, which could be made by the average player in less than a hour typically. But it was still considered hugely pricely, and most people wouldn't think of paying to go to something. Tickets were sold in advance, as was the case with Onieronaut Escher. But these were quite rarified events, actually, and tended to be attended primarily by people who were already established, respected, well-to-do, and possibly prominent members of the community. I think maybe that is what Onieronaut's event may have been like?

That sort of formula can work, I think. But rarely, and only for those who can afford the ticket price. And I don't know about Escher, but David Pierce and crew I know did not profit from these efforts in terms of effort and hourly pay.

I have heard that, before I came along, the old system allowed for gaming the system, so that poor hosts could get rich with little effort.. But I have also heard that the new system has actually resulted in fewer and less creative events. Not surprising, since without the subsidy, you tend to get more of the entertainment that is EASIEST to produce - namely Tringo and naked av contests. And I'm not saying doing those is EASY; just easier than, say, a play.

So removing the subsidies to make sure that gaming the system can't happen has also had the unfortunate side effect of making sure that many creative and legitimate events won't happen. Good events. Like the ones I might have given if I hadn't determined within a couple of days of joining the game that hosting events is . . . how should I say it? for fools? patsies? Or just nice people who don't care if they don't make or even lose money? Whichever. I could see which way the wind blew, and it was making physical content.

Also, I think you and many people on this thread think of events quite differently from the way I do. You tend to think solely in terms of Tringo and naked av contests. Well, in the first place, aside from gaming the system - which I think we would all agree is a bad thing - I don't see the point of passing value judgments on what events are "worthy" and which aren't. If people go to them, then they are entertainment, and that makes them worthy. Plus these events have apparently flourished since the change, while others without such mass appeal have foundered.

We need affordable entertainment for the masses, not just for the wealthy, established folks. We need entertainment for the people who love to dance half naked at some laggy club, whether or not we personally would like to do that. But more than anything, we need variety. Not "no more Tringo," or ""no naked av contests," but yes Tringo, yes naked av, and yes contests, plays, captions, poetry readings, game shows, debates, book clubs, lord - the list is as long as one's imagination.

People need a bit of financial incentive to actually put themselves on the line and offer entertainment (it ain't easy having the audacity to hold an event and put yourself on stage, much less run it pleasantly and smoothly). People who are already good at it - like me - need some financial incentive to bother to get out there and be good at it. New people who don't have a network of friends willing to pony up thousands a ticket and promise to be there on opening night can hold an event without charging and people are more likely to come, when they wouldn't pay for a pig in a poke.

I am currently thinking about the other ideas I've heard for making events a feasible proposition without subsidies, but so far nothing has sounded that workable. I'm still thinking on it.

You might consider, too, that Tringo contests and naked AV contests all generate profits for the physical content creators in the game, who make the game boards, animations, clothes, etc. Many of the people who put on these events have ALREADY payed the physical content creators in order to put on their event.

I'm just glad that whatchamacallit something and education fair was free, or I would have missed it.

coco

TOUCHSTONE. Touchstone Fair.

"Everyone wants to be entertained but they arent even willing to pay a penny, they just want leech and suck money off other people."

Eboni, it is true people don't want to pay for entertainment. Start charging them for hanging out at clubs enjoying av contests, and all those people will . . . go to another GAME. That is the danger.

This is supposed to be an entertainment medium, not some rl school of hard economic knocks. You gotta keep the people entertained, or they go elsewhere.

coco

Oh well.

edit: This is not a game.

edit2: So I should go down to my local movie theatre and demand they let me see their stuff for free? I should wave a gun at a concert and demand free admission? I should enter a book store and take the books by force? BUT I DON'T WANNA PAY, coco! I don't wanna! People should GIVE me what I want! 'Cause I want it.

Come on now. People don't want to pay for objects, but they certainly do. Because they're worth it.

Thus far, very few people are hosting anything worth paying for. Oh well.

Question: Want to be TAXED?

Duh.

I didn't read the whole thread cause too many pages so to answer the orginal post "HELL NO"

kthxbye