Everyone please sign this petition

ahahahahaha

The way it was worded said so much more than that.

VOCÊ NÃO É HOMEM PORTUGUESE

Roberta,

First of all, I am not American by birth - I lived more than half of my life in Venezuela. What I find disappointing is this smug superiority you seem to have about how differently Europeans think (I didn't realize you are part of the group think brigade). Americans do not collectively think as one, and this anti-American rhetoric most often perpetuated by Brits in these forums is sad and almost akin to racism. I am extremely opposed to the Bush administration, and in general I am a pacifist, though personally I am happy to see terrorists kept at bay as much as possible from Miami Beach.

I also do think it is honorable to defend the lives and freedoms that this country enjoys - I have watched them be snuffed out in my home country as Chavez has become more and more of a dictator. The same thing is currently happening in Russia - all of the progress that has been made is being undone.

Enough with the "we think so much differently" garbage. You may indiviudally think differently, but even though I am sure you are accustomed to using the royal we, you can't speak for an entire group of people. This has nothing to do with foreign policy, it has to do with your own form of nationalism - the very thing you accused others of being. The US has many, many flaws, as does every other country in the world. I am still proud to live in this country, and if I could serve in the military (I have a genetic heart condition), I would be proud to defend it. If you thinking differently means thinking that is dishonorable, then I am quite happy to think differently from you.

Christiano, that was really well-said.

Let's not white wash war. As well as honor, there is much dishonor that goes along with defending the lives and freedoms that this country enjoy as well. Don't ignore the tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocent lives that have been lost, the lies told at the beginning of the war, and the hundreds of billions of dollars being diverted from a country that currently can't balance its budget or meet the needs of its social welfare programs. I could also mention the billions that are being siphoned off to corporations connected to those who started the war (the VP nonetheless), our new-and-improved democracy-flavored colonialism, and the future control and exploitation of natural resources that underscore the entire operation.

It's a little more complicated than defending the glory of freedom. As an idealist, I agree with your commitment to liberty, equality, and brotherhood, however this war is only peripherally related to those ideals and the fact that we as a country have such difficulty grasping it is perhaps evidence of the patriotic group think that Roberta is alluding to.

~Ulrika~

Let's not white wash Roberta's Eurocentric arrogance, shall we? And I will point out that how many EUROPEAN countries were complicit in Iraq for their own gains - France, Germany, and...wait for it, ENGLAND come to mind, I can provide plenty of reference. I do know that seeing the Iraqi people vote, and also not living under Saddam Hussein tyranny, is something to be proud of, as unsupportive as I am of the war and its motivations. You are right, it's a little more complicated than defending the glory of freedom - however, it is also a little more complicated than the dumb Americans rhetoric spewed forth ad nauseum by people who are hardly in a position to act superior.

War is an ugly, ugly thing, and there is plenty of dishonor associated with it. However, telling any of the people who have proudly served this or any other country that they are dishonorable for doing so while sitting in the safe comfort of your college campus or home office is in itself dishonorable. The soldiers fighting in Iraq or anywhere else are not there because they think "wooohoo we get to control the oil, we get to earn more for Halliburton". They are there risking their lives for a country that they love, at the command of a government they are serving. Dishonor is in the eye of the beholder.

Adohan, I take my job very seriously(hence why i volunteer for things) as a matter of fact in the past month i have gotten one medal and two ribbons oh and a 2 star general gave me a coin. I kick ass at what i do and take alot of pride in my work and i think that might be one of the reasons i act like a little bitch here because i cant do it in rl.. no room for that.. And to end this ill have to say something you understand. Shut the fuck up.

I understand what you're saying but want to point out the problem that patriotism has on the perception of war, soldiers, and dissenters.

I submit that military, political, or civil service does not intrinsically deserve honor, rather honor must be earned through moral action. One must, despite the call to conformity, do that which is right. Having the strength to do what is right deserves honor. Examples where soldiers did not do what was right can be found in recent prison scandals, reports of shooting injured soldiers, and the holding of prisoners without trial.

I stress this, because the concept of intrinsic honor as applied to military service is actually a tool used to convince soldiers to give their lives serving State interests while simultaneously silencing critics of the State.

~Ulrika~

billy,

I wanted to post something to you when I read your post that you were shipping out but the topic of war in general is a difficult one for me. I have a lot of difficulty separating the soldier from the war (much like some people have difficulty separating the U.S. citizen from our government.)

Nonetheless, I want to let you know that I appreciate your personal sacrifice. I understand how difficult it is to put your RL on hold -- I have many family members who have served as well. As one of my favorite SLers, I hope you return to us soon.

I also signed your petition.

~Ulrika~

Those ribbons you get for a dollar from charity collectors are not military honours son. And the General probably thought you were a bum.


INTERNET SERIOUS BUISNESS

Annnnny way.

you cant see it my way. I can't see it your way lets leave it the fuck alone and stop all the drama.

Ah, THATS why you seem so lame. Looks like you may be genetically related to the SA Goon species.

Cristiano, Ulrika - both excellent points from both sides.

Cristiano, I have to agree - this blatant anti-Americanism without any qualification is not just close to racism, it is racism. If you or I were to start any sentence, "All of you Africans..." or "All of you Jews... " or "All of you Chinese..." we'd be suspended from the game, period.

Ado, in the same token you lump all of "us Americans" into one group because our military is in Iraq, I could do the same to you, being a Brit with troops in Iraq. Your whole argument falls apart here not so much of the hypocrisy of the statement, but because you have tried to make a clear distinction between "Europe" and "The US", which I'll echo Cristiano to point out your illogic.

Ulrika,

There are plenty of Americans who dissent in their opinion on the war, but are still patriotic.

And it's nice to live in a country where dissenters can debate this openly without fear of their media being government run (Russia) or opponent parties banned (Venezuela) or their Congress being dissolved (Nepal, though China's been violently trying to overthrow the parliamentary kingdom there).

Yes Hiro I started the whole "lumping into one catagory" thing.





Oh wait no....

Could a Linden please lock this thread and fire it into the centre of the sun? I fear that it will soon reach critical mass of stupid and a black hole of stupid will form and suck the entire internet into it.

It's not racism, it's actually ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism is the broader term which encompasses specific terms such as racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, classism, and so on.

However, I don't think Roberta's comment is what I'd call true ethnocentrism in the sense that it uses group distinctions to claim superiority. Instead she seems to be expressing her frustration towards a group's government that is acting in a way in which she doesn't approve and whose people in this forum are very difficult to talk to. You'll see in Cristiano's posts above and your quoted post below, it's quite difficult for dissenters to discuss war without having to suffer through personal attacks and patriotic clichés.

This is another patriotic cliché and a logic fallacy if you're trying to apply it to the current war. Our current governmental system and our freedom of speech have nothing to do with Iraq. As a matter of fact, with the exception of the original revolution, no war has ever been fought to directly protect our freedom of speech in the U.S -- ever. One could even say that the original revolutionary war was more about economic freedom than ideology. It was a peaceful meritocracy that brought us the concept of freedom of speech.

~Ulrika~

You will be at the center of this black hole. You said some pretty ignorant and hurtful things. Tsk.

~Ulrika~

It does not surprise me that you are an apologist for Roberta's posts - it's not a personal attack when made against an entire group of people? Please. However, you are missing a point, Ulrika. I am as much a dissenter as you - I have been opposed to this war from day one, and remain so - I would like the US to pull out, though I understand the complexities of doing so now and not letting Iraq collapse under its own weight. However, what I was pushing back against is Roberta's blatant ethocentrism - not just in this thread, but overall, which you seem to give her a free pass for. Her dumb American comments are the epitome of ethnocentrism, and her claims that Europeans think differently is the epitome of group think.

This entire thing is not about the validity of war - it is about separarting the people from the government, and the solider from the war, with in all of her (and your) thinking differently, you seem woefully incapable of doing. Yes, the Bush "you are either with us or you are against us" form of patriotism is horrible - but tell me this does not exist in England, in France, or elsewhere, or that the 50 million or so people who voted against Bush don't represent America as well. My point is not about war or its validity. Roberta can be as frustrated as she wants to be, she still has no right or invitation to slur an entire group of people, even with you as her apologist.

Don't red herring the issue.

The "lumping into one category" thing is about saying all Americans are war-hawks, "stupid", and "unable to operate a weapon."

Billy's quote was in response to Ryan's ill-wishes. Billy was saying that Ryan was not American, and there's two reasons he could have been saying that:
1. Because Americans are patriotic, whether they dissent about war opinions or not.
2. Because Americans, in general, don't wish people to blow their hands off.

The "lumping into one category" thing was not about patriotism or wishing soldiers harm.

As a couple of us have pointed out, nationalism / patriotism is not about whether you agree with your country's individual decisions. It's about being a part of your country and liking the country. Americans love America. That's how it is. We don't like parts of it, and we disagree with our government, yes. But we love our country. The ones that don't love our country leave, and hence they are no longer Americans. Even the most outspoken, staunchly anti-war Americans continue to make it clear, over and over again, that they love America.

So yeah, I agree with Billy. It is unamerican to wish a soldier of your country harm for no reason other than you don't like them. But that's not what you've lumped us together in. You've lumped us together as warmongers.

ULRIKA, thanks for your kind words i know you have diff views on such things but really appreciate your best regards..it means alot.

Hiro, thanks for explaining things to ado.

Ado, shut the fuck up. And go stop posting here if your tired of the drama. You made your bed now fucking lay in it oh and shut the fuck up.

ZOMG SHUT THE FUCK UP LOLZ.

Not out to start a or a flame debate or anything like that just a question or two reference this subject.

You say here, that no other war reflected a defending of the freedom of speech.
My question then, is this.
What did they defend if not the Ideology of Freedom?
What did they defend if not all subcomponents that it encompasses within the terms of this country's definition of Freedom?

I guess by your summation all of our wars were nothing more than Peacekeeping actions. That WWI and WWII were not in concerted effort with world wide nations to quell the spread of something much worse than the freedoms many countrys do now enjoy.

No Offence Ulrika even with all of your book learning and analytical definitions one single person cannot ever truly define "Freedom". Freedom encompasses so many measures of the human psychie that it is in essence Immeasurable.

Anyway I was just curious is all.
Considering Billy is going off to do what I did for 13yrs.
I have a great deal of respect and concern for him in that regard.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

No no, it's ok, I don't need any acknowledgement