The land griefing continues...

As i stated in the previous post it's not just aesthetics. It's a sum of more factors.

...

So you're saying that you're sorry for posting this griefing, antagonistic thread and for trying and bully a honest and creative resident into destroying what looked to be a half-decent basic build?

I find it immensely humorous that this thread is six pages long, and every bit of it involves everyone else telling one person that they're wrong, and the person STILL doesn't realize they're wrong.

And i find immensely humorous how easily people that lack arguments recur to personal attacks
If everyone thought i was wrong i really doubt that "poor victim" as you are trying to make him look (very humorous indeed), would have removed his build.

Thank you. Now there's real basis for discussion.

Uh, how do you know it had nothing to do with aesthetics? Aesthetics are wierd things. Few people would consider an airstrip pretty - but I *do* and that's why I built one.

The particles were astonishinly minimal - and the scripts were one-shots that turned on the particle system and then stopped. Not chewing up much in thew way of resources at all. I think the pair in each prim (still only one particle system) was a mistake/newbie error sort of thing.

I've seen those, too - Ugly, yes, prim-heavy, yes, greifing? I don't know - but I doubt it.
As for the invisible prims - I'm not sure why that's a problem. He or she had two of them there. Not exactly a GPU killer. And the plot even had 5 prims left over.

I've had builds on land I've had up for sale, all unlinked. (Note: The 'power station' was linked in sections) And earlier in the thread, Lash mentions having had builds on peroperty she had for sale. Neither of us were greifing anyone.

How do we know it was abandoned? What if the builder just passed by now and again - unnoticed by neighbors. "That's *my* power plant! Wow, SL is cool. Oooh, what's this on the events list?" kind of thing.

I think there are such things as a greifing/extortion builds, becasue I've seen them. They are extreme. One had prims passing though neighbor's property and home with llTargetOmega - root prim safe from deletion on land set for sale at ten times its market value. Particle fountains pouring bright, large, and emissive particles all over the sim from a prim set on a tiny plot set for almost fifty times market value. A 150 meter tall tower made of overlapping alpha textures and light sources with particle systems that you could not actually see that would bring all but the most muscular GPUs to thier knees on land set at fifteen times its market value.

The power station build didn't even come close to these extremes.

I defend the owner's right to do with as they please with the land, becasue I'm actually defending my right to it - I want to be able to create what I want on land I pay for, all according to MY sense of aesthetic, to MY skill level, according to MY motivation for its creation. I agree to avoid preventing others from doing the same on thier land, which means I use my fair share of sim resources and no more, my build stays off other's land (including particles), and I keep an open mind for cooperation with neighbors without promise of altering my art simply to fit another's view of aesthetics.

Above someone made a point that this thread has consisted of one specious allegation of "build griefing" and "extortion" and has been thoroughly rebutted from just about every conceivable angle.

As I'm sure the complaintant has already reported this to the Lindens let us let her get her "official" response which she may find more compelling (or at least incontrovertible - well actually more like implacable). As the wise great-grandparent I never knew might have said (if in fact wise) "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only frustrates you and annoys the pig".

And Cristiano, I'm flattered, but I think our respective girlfriends would probably take exception.

Taeja's only stipulation is she wants to watch.

one thing is an airstrip, i love airstrips, and i really doubt anyone could think an airstrip looks bad or whatever. An airstrip doesnt summon particularly negatove feelings, while a monument to pollution like that smokything does...



Actually when i visited to take the pic there were six separate particle systems running continuously with relative timers, and from my research (i might be wrong) that eats up quite a bit. if you add the big rotating pollution waste coming out from the base of the build...



Invisible doesnt mean only alpha, it means it mans even hiddeen inside the other prims, the towers had tons iof such prims. Even a newbie could do that build, completely identical, with 20 prims. Moreover he filled up the base with grass prims (even where they are not visible) and to me that seems a quite clear attempt to completely fill the parcel, in addition to this (even if im not sure about this but i assume this is the case) grass and tree prims are the kind of prims that cause the most server load, due to their complexity and animation, if they dont cause server load they sure cause client lag.



When i saw it only the towers were linked and not even completely, again, this factor is not a problem by itself, but if it's added to the others...



So he just slams down that thing and then leaves it there for his neightbors to suffer?
Not nice...



The ones that are targeting me with (honestly humorous) personal attacks in this thread are the same that did the same when i posted about probably the same tower.
But there will be always lots of people willing defend griefers no matter how badly they grief it seems.

I agree with much of what Shiryu is saying here, he is absolutely right to raise the griefer build phenom -- I see it out here now in Wixom and other new sims. It's an outrage, and I don't think newbies and alts and griefing tiny idjit minds on 512s should be allowed to hold entire sims hostage with their crap. It's not about freedom of expression.

But...there's quite a back story here on the Power to the People Installation (as the artist calls), so let me tell you what I know. Word One, the "asked around" no doubt took place with entirely corrupted sources because it's entirely untrue. The smokestack creator lived and worked in Wetheral steadily, was always around (though often under water or in the sky) and made many interesting inventions and boats and so on while there. You just didn't see it. So you just can't know.

Way back when, I bid on properties in Wetheral, trying to get the peninsula for a planned community, but someone else got it. I went out and chatted with the new owner, congratulated him, and found he was trying to keep it residential. I had a few other lesser parcels there but without the main one to develop, there was no need to keep the others so I set them to sale. I had hoped to go residential too, but a griefer build up on the hill behind me made it impossible. So I moved, like so many other newbies.

When I put the plots up for sale, they never moved -- an ugly build, too many new sims, whatever. So eventually I had to chop them up. And naive me, I didn't realize that water, when chopped up, can prove to be a horrendous griefing tool. In fact, I didn't even understand at first you could sell water until I saw Anshe do it. I thought naively that owners of waterfront would first buy the waterfront, then gradually step up to buy the water when they had more money saved or had the need for prims. The water would sit there, waiting for owners of nearby land to buy it. But instead, water in Wetheral switched hands 6 times before a friend of mine finally took a patch of it -- water just doesn't work that way in SL, because things don't need to float, so any asshole can float whatever he wants on water, including a 500 storey skyscraper.

Now, here's the true story of what happened in Wetheral, and what you see here is only the tip of the iceberg, and it is entirely unfair to blame this poor 512 owner for the saga there, because he is merely the last episode in a stunning SL saga I have never posted about, but should have long ago, because it is all too common:

1. A talented and skillful content creator, one of the feted inner core who proved a perfect icon for my development of this concept -- indeed much of my notion of feted inner core comes from this incident originally -- moved to the area and began his earnest content production, completely oblivious to the residential nature of this sim.

2. This talented but inconsiderate hedonist with not very much land compared to other people proceded to build an enormous build physically blocking access to someone's land -- literally that person couldn't sail a boat of his waterfront, and his land became unsellable and unliveable. The build would have been interesting in another context -- say a huge empty sandbox or a huge sim devoted to making fun inventions -- but in a residential area with little Victorian clapboard houses and cabins, it seemed completely out of place.

3. People in the neighborhood began to fret about the huge loudy scripty ugly content build and weapons introduced into the hood by this feted one, and began to try various methods -- nicely asking him to stop, trying to get the person to swap lots, offering money, offering free land. Nothing worked. Some people began negrating, and finally a few put up a giant wall with a screenshot on it of how the sim USED to look, before this feted content creator asswipe got to it, utterly oblivious to an entire sim full of quiet residential people who just wanted to do their thing in peace on waterfront, free of weapons singing their hair.

4. The Lindens were called out repeatedly as this sim sunk to an alarming 27 FPS -- yes, 27 FPS!!!! And the scripted objects went up to 495! -- yes, 495! The Lindens, ever content to bless their content barons, mumbled stuff about how maybe the innocent poker games that a few of the boys had gotten going in the rental cabins were to blame for the lag, though it was evidently clear to all who lived there that scripted weapons from the inconsiderate content baron were the issue. You didn't have to be a rocket scientist -- indeed, it was the rocket scientist, not the poker players who was lagging the sim to a standstill.

5. Literal war broke out, with weapons, missiles, etc. The 512 owner, later the creator of the Power to the People installation, had a modest little dock and boat at that time. It was quite lovely, and even won the praise of a Linden as a build. He had a skybox, and minded his own business. But gradually he got fed up not only with the content baron, but with other neighbors behind him on the water who, in a separate saga, began to bark that he was blocking their view -- though of course being in water legally purchased in front of waterfront, he had every right to do so, and had a modest build -- they just had no clue how bad it could get, and for reasons totally unknown, favored the griefing content baron who had a larger and blockier build, over the tinier 512 plot.

6. The content baron erected a wall, putting clear on his side, and putting ugly texture on the 512 side -- a clear grief. And the other richer neighbors with more land began to bark at the 512 that he was "only" a 512 and was "the cause" of walls and ugly builds and should simply leave -- sell his lot and leave. This notion says that landowners with more land can tell those with less land what do to -- the violation of any notion of any rule of law, of course, including the TOS in SL.

7. The 512 owner asked the richer ppl to move their build up, and asked the content baron to get rid of the stupid wall, all to no avail. Now, he could have moved, like so many lowly 512 newbs stuck in 512 hell. But being a determined fellow, he stuck it out. He tried to get around the problem. He tried Lindens. He avoided posting in the forums, despite yours truly begging him to post. And in the end...he made his installation and set the lot to sale (for a time he set it to $60,000 as a form of art protest). The sale is not an extortionist price to my knowledge -- but what price can be put on months and months of losing enjoyment of the game by hedonist asshole content kings?

So...you see it really isn't "about" this artist and his witty Power to the People "ugly" power station. It's about powerful hedonistic fucktards who make content and are coddled by Lindens and older powerful players, especially in mafias, thinking they can just barge into sims, do their thing on relatively small square-meters of lots, and ruin entire sims, lagging them into the fucking ground, making them slag heaps, not to mention whipping up particles and light and sound and weapons all the while.

I have absolutely no "understanding" for this hedonistic fucktard who began this saga, who injured my friends' and neighbours' enjoyment of the game, and who set me well on my course to fighting such types with every breath I take. Indeed, I have a particular vow to fight this one and post it publicly because challenging this hedonist led me to lose a close friend, who temporarily took the side of this content tyrant due to his content, but who, if he could see the sim lagged to 27 and the rank inconsiderate behaviour peculiar to this hedonist, would surely reverse his judgement. It was my certainty that this badly behaved content king shouldn't be given a pass due to content, connection to Lindens, and connections to mafias, that led me to challenge a friend who took the content's king's side, with later disastrous consequences which I will never forget as long as I live.

So you see, Shiryu, there is always a back-story. This story could have been very different if the Lindens stepped up to the plate, and told this hedonistic asswipe that they can't lag a whole sim, intimidate neighbours, block neighbours, and pretend it's about a poker game. Such behavior belongs on a sandbox, or on half a sim somewhere that doesn't disrupt others.

Everybody who began in Wetheral is now selling. The hedonist I believe is selling too. Such is the way of the world. God damn it all to hell. Content barons should not have the right to ruin people's gameplay, enjoyment, and investments in this way. The Lindens simply must start charging these prima donnas who are utterly out of control, and at least make them pay for the server resources they draw on with impunity. It is entirely unfair for someone to take a few thousand square meters at most, and lag a sim to 27, when the chief bidders and tenants of the sim, who have many thousands more of meters and dollars invested, are held hostage to such a selfish bastard.

Non pasaran!

You state; you do not demonstrate either conclusively or with apparent objectivity. Your sum of factors is a sum of subjective inductive leaps:

That said, you begin with what appears to be a very negative subjective judgment which is pure hyperbole -- let's remember that the towers were not actually "pouring polluting waste into the water." It's a 3D picture.
From that iffy start, it's difficult to not see your other arguments as a series of and-also's to support a main contention: that Ugly + For-Sale = Grieving.
.
Is the only possible conclusion here intent to grieve?
I'm not, for example, at all conversant in what constitutes destructive "heavy scripts, particles". I could easily stumble into such a state without knowing. If I did so stumble, I would hope my neighbors would begin by thinking the potential best of me and arrive to the correct conclusion that I'm ignorant in the matter; not to the potential worst of my being willfully destructive or extortionist.
Why put two particle scripts into a thing? My first inclination is to think that it's for more effect. People use particles for effect, and I could easily see a person wanting to go for that on more of a grand scale.
Perhaps with some lil tweaking and skills as you apparently possess, a person could achieve the equivalent results. Since you're conversant in this subject, did you contact this neighbor and helpfully offer to explain how to do so? Or do you simply assume the worst from the start?
.
I admire anyone who holds sufficient skill to elegantly construct something well the first time around, with neither experimentation nor progressive versions.
I'd hate to think anyone who's looked at some of the prim heavy, prim redundant things I've had on my land might take them as evidence that I'm putting them there "just trying to cause as much server load as possible" -- as opposed to my being a relative newbie who designs as she goes along.
I also wasn't aware that there was anything especially wrong in using the prim allotment on the land one owns and pays tier for. If you believe the prim allotment for a 512 plot is too large, you should craft an argument to that effect and submit it to the Lindens.

If the land is for sale, then I don't see anything especially surprising that the build is unlinked and will be destroyed as soon as it's purchased. The build may well be a result of "beloved creativity", but I don't think that also means "beloved result". There's a huge literature out there about the creative act, which normally includes stages with names like "brainstorming" and "refinement" -- none of which are ever intended to be construed as final achievements. Land for sale could well be a good place to creatively use as a private sandbox.
The smoke stacks certainly seemed to be an eye-catcher. More, I gather, than the usual run of ugly for-sale signs strewn across SL which look like every other for-sale sign. If the purpose of for-sale signs is to catch the eye, then this one seems to have succeeded. I'm not sure I can fault someone for that.

Since you appear track the movements of your neighbors to know this, you might also add "totally unused" for how long. A day? A week? A month? "Totally unused" is an ambiguous description.
Are you able to inform us how often the accused comes in-world on what kind of schedule: Does he show up only on weekends but not during the week? Has he been out of town on vacation, on business, to get married, or to bury a recently dead parent? Is he a student who had to spend December taking finals, and January settling into a new semester of classes? Did he move from one RL home to another?
If he comes in-world regularly, does he have other SL commitments which keep him from adequately punching a clock on his land to your satisfaction?


The litany of reasons you give could easily apply to someone who is not grieving. Most of them could have applied to things I've had on my land during the past 10 weeks when I could only come to SL infrequently, and had neither reason nor time to regularly visit my land.

Understand, I believe the arguments you give may well be true. You fail however to demonstrate that they can, even in sum, apply *only* to a griever of ill-purpose.
You may induce what you wish of your neighbors. For my own course, given ambiguous situations for which I do not have verifiable conclusive facts, I shall prefer to err on the side of thinking the best of others, not the worst.

Prokofy:

I totally understand what you said, and the story is indeed a sad one, just 5 minutes ago i have been sent a pic of the previous building walled out by the "content baron" and that indeed was not a pretty situation, but the owner of the 512 simply answererd to griefing with griefing back not hitting only the "content baron", but everyone else around.
As i can have some sympathy for his previous situation i cannot condone his behavioir.
He could have recurred to the forums, expecially when the nearby guy put walls all around his property (as i said i saw it and that too was extreme grief, i really doubt the "content baron " in question would have received much simpathy, even between all the people always ready to defend griefers), for a merchant his reputation is everything, and the best way to retaliate for those griefing walls would have been making the situation public, giving the "content baron" (dunno why, but i like this definition, lol) a reputation hit, that's what hurts merchants the most.
Placing a griefing build to counter-grief someone else does nothing else than escalating the situation and encuraging land estortion further, giving problems not only to the first griefer, but to everyone around.
It is like those transportation field workers that when they have trouble with their employers do massive and repeated strikes that give problems to all other workers and actually have very little effects against their employer.

Ah Ha Ha Hoo Hoo Hoo. Prim's? Cackle Cackle..let Me Add More Prims, More Particles...
Heh Heh Heh!

And Next Week We Steal All Of Your Left Shoes!!

EXCEPT CLOUDY VARMINTS, DAMN THAT'S FUGLY!! SORRY!

uhm..... excuse me?




a picture is worth a thousand words


peace.

Indeed.

I went to Musashi-Du and boy was I shocked at what a griefing build it is and how adversely it impacts the sim, interferes with flight, and how displeasing it is to me. I demand that something be done about it and if something isn't, I'm just going to keep complaining.

Although the attached pictures are annotated, for the benefit of all the other sim residents I shall give you some pointers for being a considerate builder:

1. don't make floors of a build that are empty (excess prims cause lag)
   
2. don't use 6 prims per floor for illumination when one will do
   
3. turn the cycle time on your billboard down so that the images can download before they are changed
   
4. shiny is not a substitue for textures (and it's laggy)
   
5. almost everything in the shop is built of light (laggy)
   
6. it doesn't look at all like the nice build nearby, it should
   

For those who have never seen a light trace as shown in the attached, it is a debug tool to show illumination sources and their projective illumination rays. Each of the rays shows a lighting calculation that needs to be done on the client side. The only other place I have seen light traces so dense is in clubs which are known for their lagginess, so by implication, this build is sim lagger too.

I'm glad I'm not the neighbor of someone who makes such griefer builds and is a content baron too. I bet you are feted and/or inner, too.

as i told some posts ago....



too bad for you i receive many compliments about my building, and yes, even from some of my neightbors. It's sure not perfect, but i'm constantly working to improve it under all aspects (for instance by commisioning art to artists and so forth).
I shouldn't even waste my time to answer you, but i need a break from scripting (since i am working on optimizing all the scripts included in my build to have them as server friendly as possible, for instance removing all the listens i can and replacing them by touches and link messages, something that people unfortunately rarely do), so here it comes:
First of all roomy environment (what you call empty floors, even if NONE of my floors are empty) is there to make people able to fly inside and not bump on the walls at every move, a problem about wich MANY people complained. You know, people don't like to shop in a vietcong tunnel.
Almost all my light items are set with the face 0 set to black, this means they are non emissive, you didnt even took your time to check, if you ever know about this possibility.
My shop has probably less emissive light items that most other builds made by people that didnt take whole hours of their time to turn every item's face 0 to black.
You show the light trace, but unfortunately for you it affects only clients that work with local lighting on (probably the 1% of clients running in second life) and the lack of actual emission of the light prims makes even running with local light on much less laggy than in most places where this trick hasn't been used.
Shine doesnàt replace textures, in fact all the build has a metal texture AND is shiny. That is the only concession to lag i made, and doesn't lag the sim much (if at all, since it's mostly client side, and again the lack of emissive light sources helps a lot) since the fps is very good for an old sim.
About the fact that it SHOULD look like the nearby building, this is so ridiculous that it really doesnt even need an answer. Mine is a more modern style of achitecture, that is all.
You recur to the most ridiculous detailsin order to attack me, like the sony trademark infingement (really laughable) you noted in the picture and that show your ignorance, the 7 and 2 set to light? you didnt even notice they are lighter in color just because they have a lower degree of shine compared to the rest of the building. In other words, my dear Malachi, you are totally clueless.

Have fun.

But at least I know what "derisive parody" means. So I have one clue at least.

Oh, and the illuminati are different than "illumination" but it would probably be unsafe for me to say anything else on that subject.

I'm sorry that you've spent so much time setting face zero to black. Someone gave me a script which makes it much less time consuming. I don't know what it does, but I think it might help.

// non-emmissive v1.0 - turn face zero of a prim to black to stop light emission
// to use, drop this script into a light prim - that's it.
//
// 8-dec-04 malachi petunia: free to copy, modify, bend, fold, spindle, or mutilate
// 
default {
    state_entry() {
        llSay(0, llGetScriptName());
        llSetColor(<0, 0, 0>, 0);
        llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName());
    }
}

Thanks for letting me know that only 1% of clients run with local lighting. It's exchange of these facts that keep the community vital. I am curious as to how you came to know that tidbit though... I looked all over for llDetectedClientLocalLighting and just could not find it, any pointers would be appreciated.

malachi, maybe if you put some effort in it you will understand what that 27 means (try to look on the other side for further hints), ah, it's very likely that the script someone gave to you is the one made by me (after i got tired of doing it manually). Too bad not always a cube's 0 face is the hidden one, and this was the case of all my vendors, wich i had to turn, resize and retexture one by one.

Anyway, here is another good example:
A few minutes ago, a friend of mine called me in distress because she found something not really nice made to her building (you can see a nice picture attached to this post)

Basically she found a whole side of her modeling agency (Dove Vogue, one of the best modeling agencies of second life, home and breeding place of many of our best content creators of SL) covered by a 30 meters tall and 150 meters wide badly textured wall.
The wall is about 30 centimeters from her windows, totally blocking the whole side of her place, and not only that, it extends further doing the same to the beautiful garden another girl built on one side of Dove Vogue (actually one of the nicest gardens i saw so far).
By the way, Dove Vogue is quite nicely built and doesnt lag the sim if not for a couple hours every few days when there are lots of people coming to see fashion shows, but there are no unnecessary particle and prims, and the owner did a lot of effort and invested lots of time to have it look nice (and anyway the owner of the wall doesn't suffer from any lag since he is in the neightboring sim).
Now yes, it's his land, so theorically it's his right to do this to Dove Vogue's and to the garden's owners, but this wall is actually and undeniably damaging his neightbors, he didnt want to see dovevogue's walls? Well he made no attempt to work it out with DV's owner, he just placed a big ugly griefing wall and walked away. This in my eyes is a full blown griefing attempt.
Now should we defend the right of this guy to slam an immense wall monster right a few inches from someone's windows and someone else's garden, or maybe we should begin to think about those people as well? That find their windows and garden completely blocked out and their places in wich they spent countless hours of work ruined? I think they have their rights as well, and the current rules don't defend them.

oh no!! so many beautiful months here.....and now this!

Exactly Palomma, my point is not to limit the rights of people that want to use their land according to their own creativity and skills, but to defend the ones that have spent countless hours to turn their parcels in a beautiful corner of their second life.
Their efforts NEED to be respected and defended as well as the freedom of expression of everyone else.

*I would rather not discuss that anymore.
Would you like to discuss your nerves?
*I guess so.
What does that suggest to you?
*What are you getting at?
What answer would please you most?
*It's not a matter or like or dislike.
What else would you like to discuss?
*I am getting tired of answering the same questions over and over.
What resemblance do you see?
*Why do you need to know that?
What do you think?
*I don't understand your motives.
Why don't you understand my motives?
*Shouldn't I be?
Why do you say that just now?
*That's just the way it is.
Suppose that's just the way it were not.
*So?
I am not sure I understand you fully.
*You harp on the same questions too much.
What does that similarity suggest to you?
*I don't get you.

I can't even see an abstract art on this wall.....

ay ay ay....

I have to take my windows off?

If the view from the windows was important, I'm not sure I understand why Dove Vogue built so close to the edge of the property line. Did the potential for a structure -- any sort of structure -- not exist prior to the wall being erected?
.
I'm trying to understand where the dividing line is between a "griefing structure" and one which is not.
For example, if the structure were something other than a wall, would it still be an issue? Would it be an issue if it were an attractive building finely textured? Would it be an issue if it were a poor building finely textured? Would it be an issue if it were a poor building poorly textured?

What did the owner of the wall say about the objection to it's placement there? I assume there was an attempt to work it out before posting this as an example of intentional grieving, since not to do so could be indicative of a full blown griefing attempt.

And it's interesting to see how the griefer thinks he has the right of blocking the space between DV and some of other neightboring small parcels as well. His wall overlaps the limits between two parcels owned by others and DV as well, like shown in this picture.

This is why the edge of my Varney land is water / mountain / trees.

This is why we also have the Varney Preservation Society

Why should one landowner, who built right to the edge of his/her land, tell his/her neighbor that he/she can't do the same? I mean, at the very least, if you want some buffer zone, you should allow the other person to have some.

According to me it should be the other way around, the owner of that ugly griefing wall that should have contacted Palomma (since he is the last comer by the way), and the owners of other neighboring parcels blocked by that wall (4 in total) to talk about them about it. No, he just thought he was his right to slam that wall there, how nice of him.