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Outrageously Offended

Liquid Zidane
Enjoy
Join date: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 174
12-29-2004 21:20
Dragen made alot of good points. But there's something I -will- disagree with...

From: Dragen Zaius
While morals will always be different for each and every individual, the fact remains there IS and always WILL be a defined "morale" for every subject. Thou shalt not kill. DUH. Maybe morals should be cleverly labeled, "Common Sense" which many people seem to lack.

So if morals don't apply, then apparently it's NOT wrong if I break your jaw for filming/photographing my wife's genitalia, virtual or not? Regardless of a Virtual/Physical persona; it's a person. It's a person with rights, feelings, and a personality.


I don't believe it's the fact of morals "applying" or "not applying" here, but moreso them "changing". "Thou shalt not kill. DUH." I've "killed" many people in SL... for fun, mainly. I also play alot of FPSs (First Person Shooters) which is all about -killing-. This doesn't mean i'd like to do the same in the real world.. nor do I. I have not even the slightest desire. But in the virtual world, it's entertaining. Now, I don't know Taco that well, either... but from what I can gather, i've always considered him a good guy. Very humerous, Like me. If it were me who took those pics, and started that museam, the same factors would apply here, as well. I'd have no desire to do it in the real world, whatsoever. It would be perverted, and that's something i'm simply -not-. In SL, if it were me, i'd have done it for the humor, and nothing more. No hidden perverted characteristics I may or may not be "harboring" down deep inside myself. It would be for nothing more than a laugh. Now, with the number of people who -did- get offended, including close friends of mine, out of respect for them i -would- take it down. No arguement needed. Taco, I don't think you're a pervert, but I do believe your best choice would be taking it down. Out of the respect of the SL community and their reactions. But that's your own decision to make.
:rolleyes:
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Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
12-29-2004 21:40
Shhhhhhhh. He already took it down/was banned/etc. I know it's a chore to slog through 570 posts but it's already been said and done :)
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Candy Bijoux
Kiss Me
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 130
12-30-2004 05:52
You have my consent to post my upskirt photo Taco, only thing is; I don't have any genitals, so; you may have to buy me some first. :D
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Nora Belvedere
Ask me about being an alt
Join date: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 267
12-30-2004 07:06
I am simply blown away after reading this thread in it's entirety.
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Duuya Herbst
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 28
12-30-2004 08:46
Dont go into mature areas, its that simple. Mister panty fetish if he keeps it in his walls has his right if he's in a mature area. I don't think we need to get our...panties in a bunch :D over this. Perhaps he has permission? Look I don't know about the situation but at least come at it at another angle (hasn't read ENTIRE thread).
Sophos Casanova
Prefab Builder
Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 228
02-16-2005 06:10
if this photographer would be a real man with real balls, he would ask them ladies first before taking pics..

(edited)

loser
:mad:

im a lil late with this but hey.. didnt see the post before
Unhygienix Gullwing
I banged Pandastrong
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 728
02-16-2005 08:09
Ok, I was all in favor of letting this thing die. Since you brought it back from the realm of the dead though....

1. The Lindens have deemed this a no-no. It's not allowed anymore. Their rule change was something along the lines of "Please don't take photos of people if you don't have their permission." Which doesn't tell us if we should be punished if we break this rule, except with a friend. We also don't know if it became a violation because of the -ahem- intimate nature of the photographs, because Taco took them without asking, because he posted them without permission, or because people complained once he did these things.

2. These are not photos of ladies. These are photos of people's avatars. Even if you equate avatar with "self", then even so some of these pictures are not of ladies, because many males play females in second life.

3. Virtual pussy is available, and apparently affordable in SL for those who want it.

4. Taco's male avatar may or may not have balls, it depends on whether he bothered to buy or make a penile attachment, and whether he sprang for the silver or platinum version. If you are referring to the RL entity who controls the Taco Rubio avatar, that person may or may not have balls either, depending on whether they're a male or female.
Sophos Casanova
Prefab Builder
Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 228
02-16-2005 08:19
whahahaha.. that last one was real funny :-D
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
02-16-2005 08:43
From: Unhygienix Gullwing
Ok, I was all in favor of letting this thing die. Since you brought it back from the realm of the dead though....

1. The Lindens have deemed this a no-no. It's not allowed anymore. Their rule change was something along the lines of "Please don't take photos of people if you don't have their permission." Which doesn't tell us if we should be punished if we break this rule, except with a friend. We also don't know if it became a violation because of the -ahem- intimate nature of the photographs, because Taco took them without asking, because he posted them without permission, or because people complained once he did these things.

2. These are not photos of ladies. These are photos of people's avatars. Even if you equate avatar with "self", then even so some of these pictures are not of ladies, because many males play females in second life.

3. Virtual pussy is available, and apparently affordable in SL for those who want it.

4. Taco's male avatar may or may not have balls, it depends on whether he bothered to buy or make a penile attachment, and whether he sprang for the silver or platinum version. If you are referring to the RL entity who controls the Taco Rubio avatar, that person may or may not have balls either, depending on whether they're a male or female.


Ugh. Not this thread again. Ok I am gonna post one thought and then I'm out.

People are quick to note that the crime is ONLY virtual but cry and scream as if the punishment is real. Yes, my av is not really me. Yes..this is just a game. That's why you don't go to Rikers Island for some rump-romping when you behave poorly. Instead, you get to spend some virtual time in the "it's just a game" penalty box. BIG DEAL, get a grip people.

If I recall, the poll results were about 60-40 in favor of punishing non-consentual display of other people's upskirts. So this is a bahavior that mildly annoys people and therefore should be met with some mildly annoying punishment.

If, however, you consider a little timeout from SL to be more drastic and tragic a punishment than having mom take your gameboy away until after dinner, then you need to stop arguing that It's just a game".
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Bel Muse
Registered User
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 388
02-16-2005 13:25
Well thats just great. I have an entire website that's apparently now an ongoing TOS violation.

If these pictures were recognizable as a specific AV, AND the resident who's identity was associated with that particular AV objected, then that particular photo should be taken down. Otherwise, i see no harm in showing anonymous shots of avatars from various angles, including those angles that are sexual nature. A collection of butt shots, tits or crotches, as long as not identifiable, should in not be considered a problem.

Anyway, I have to rethink the policies for my website, I guess.

Bel is not a happy camper today. This is one of those days I wish I had not opened the forums :(
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Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
02-16-2005 13:28
(((hugs)))...knows the feeling Bel
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
02-16-2005 13:47
From: Bel Muse
Well thats just great. I have an entire website that's apparently now an ongoing TOS violation.

If these pictures were recognizable as a specific AV, AND the resident who's identity was associated with that particular AV objected, then that particular photo should be taken down. Otherwise, i see no harm in showing anonymous shots of avatars from various angles, including those angles that are sexual nature. A collection of butt shots, tits or crotches, as long as not identifiable, should in not be considered a problem.

Anyway, I have to rethink the policies for my website, I guess.

Bel is not a happy camper today. This is one of those days I wish I had not opened the forums :(


I am not entirely sure how this works, but to the best of my knowledge SL's TOS/CS doesn't extend to your web site. If you were displaying images that were non-consensual, sexual, and hurtful to the subjects you would be a bad person, but I don't THINK you would be in violation.
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Unhygienix Gullwing
I banged Pandastrong
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 728
02-16-2005 14:30
From: Aimee Weber


Ugh. Not this thread again. Ok I am gonna post one thought and then I'm out.

Shenanigans. I call shenanigans on Aimee.

I can't hold it against you, though, you've consistently been one of the highpoints of this ongoing debate. This subject is like beach-sand in your arse. You don't want to pay attention to it, but you can't help it....and if you try to walk away, it chaffes at you even more.
From: Aimee Weber

I am not entirely sure how this works, but to the best of my knowledge SL's TOS/CS doesn't extend to your web site. If you were displaying images that were non-consensual, sexual, and hurtful to the subjects you would be a bad person, but I don't THINK you would be in violation.


This is exactly the problem I have with things. None of us know how it works. The "clarification" from the Lindens didn't clarify anything, really. They left it intentionally vague so that they could make judgement calls on a case-by-case basis. If this SL experience is going to be more than a game, then how the offenders and offensive ones are treated is one of the most interesting subject areas. Is it against the rules to take photos of avies without their permission? If so, will we punish any and all offenders who are reported, or only where the "model" complains? Is it a violation to post the photos, in-world or on one of the interwebs?

How would the Lindens decide if, for example, Bel refused to remove a pic from her site that the subject (of the pic) objected to?
Bruno Buckenburger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 464
02-16-2005 15:07
From: Unhygienix Gullwing
This is exactly the problem I have with things. None of us know how it works. The "clarification" from the Lindens didn't clarify anything, really. They left it intentionally vague so that they could make judgement calls on a case-by-case basis.


That is the Linden M.O. for everything. It sucks but that is what happens in a dictatorship. If someone ever challenged them they'd be forced to be consistent but most people just roll over and take it with only a peep of a complaint on these boards.


From: someone
How would the Lindens decide if, for example, Bel refused to remove a pic from her site that the subject (of the pic) objected to?


If they had balls they would warn, suspend and/or ban her for displaying those pics unless she could dig up models that said they consented. Regardless of where the pics are posted, the illegal activity occured in SL. Yes, I write 'illegal' while others may not but in RL that would be illegal and until LL decides whether it is in SL we'll all have to judge based on our own opinions.
Bel Muse
Registered User
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 388
02-16-2005 16:46
Whew! I'm not a TOS violator...just a bad person.

I'm 2 out of three on your Bad Person checklist. The third "hurtful to the subjects" is a subjective response and something I wouldn't be aware of until someone sent me a message expressing their feelings on it. If someone asked me to take a picture down, I probably would. But the damage would already be done.

So without further ado Bel's very own homage to crotches! Upskirt Gallery (not safe for work). If you're not there yet, check back later, I'll be adding new pics as I get them!
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Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
02-16-2005 17:00
From: Bel Muse
So without further ado Bel's very own homage to crotches! Upskirt Gallery (not safe for work). If you're not there yet, check back later, I'll be adding new pics as I get them!
Woo hoo! I'll be sending you an upskirt pic of my av later, after I get back from taking kids to soccer practice. (Now there's a sentence I never thought I would write...)

Oh, and I doubt the Lindens will say anything about this because it's not in-world or on the official SL forums. That seems to be the line they draw as far as getting involved in this sort of thing.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
02-16-2005 17:16
From: Bel Muse
Whew! I'm not a TOS violator...just a bad person.

I'm 2 out of three on your Bad Person checklist. The third "hurtful to the subjects" is a subjective response and something I wouldn't be aware of until someone sent me a message expressing their feelings on it. If someone asked me to take a picture down, I probably would. But the damage would already be done.

So without further ado Bel's very own homage to crotches! Upskirt Gallery (not safe for work). If you're not there yet, check back later, I'll be adding new pics as I get them!



LOL my favorite one is the one with boyparts under the skirt :eek:
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
02-16-2005 17:20
From: Unhygienix Gullwing
Shenanigans. I call shenanigans on Aimee.
I can't hold it against you, though, you've consistently been one of the highpoints of this ongoing debate. This subject is like beach-sand in your arse. You don't want to pay attention to it, but you can't help it....and if you try to walk away, it chaffes at you even more.


I need to remember that quote when I need something good for the profile :D
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
02-16-2005 17:27
From: Aimee Weber
LOL my favorite one is the one with boyparts under the skirt :eek:


eggy is sexy!
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Jauani Wu
hero of justice
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Bel Muse
Registered User
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 388
02-16-2005 19:10
I can neither confirm or deny the identity of any of the upskirt models. I can however agree that eggy is sexy! :)

Beryl, I look forward to any picture you wanna share...either PG or otherwise, named or anonymous.

Aimee, Upkilt is one of my favorite way to objectify men...that and the Penis of Grief. :D

I think consent and identity in SL are difficult to prove in terms of snapshots in SL. Currently I accept submissions from people who want to share their photos on my website. But how can I do this If i'm expected to, as Bruno says, "dig up models that say they have consented" for the more than 1000 photos on 2ndlook alone.

And who do I prove this consent to? The Lindens, the forum People's Court? And how can I prove anything to anyone's satisfaction since chatlogs are worse than useless.

Or what if someone decides to force me to take a picture down by merely claiming to be the person in the picture when they were not? How do I prove who is who when people change avatars in SL, like we change t-shirts in RL.

My problem with the current upkilt scandal is there is no way to judge from the pictures (or any pictures in SL really) who was actually in the picture. I could make avatars vaguely resembling anyone at all, then take upskirt photos and post them. How does anyone know from looking at them if its just me taking pics of myself or me violating someone's privacy.

I think this discussion is a good one to have. It would be nice to have the community establish guidelines about fair use, with a realistic understanding of how easy it is to mistake identity and how difficult it is to prove consent.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
02-16-2005 19:31
Well Bel your situation is totally different as you are acting outside the jurisdiction of Second Life. You have only your conscience to answer to, and that is super duper trible mega subjective. I know my personal code of conduct isn't shared by eveybody.

Me? If I thought an image had a legitimate potential to cause embarassment or hurt feelings, I just wouldn't post it without the green light from the subject. That may mean I would have to scrap some juicy images due to the inconvenience or feasibility in tracking down the model. Those are just the losses I would have to eat in order to keep the voices in my head at bay.
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Unhygienix Gullwing
I banged Pandastrong
Join date: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 728
02-16-2005 19:31
Bel, since your photos are on a 3rd party website, you're probably safe from Linden retribution.

Maybe.

Almost definitely probably.

Depending on who fields the complaint.

:/
Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
02-16-2005 19:41
!caballo muerto!


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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
02-16-2005 19:46
let's connect some more dots:

1> it's offensive for taco to upskirt avs.
2> it's cute when bel does it.
3> eggy is sexy

ps: buy more land (preferably mine)
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Jauani Wu
hero of justice
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
02-16-2005 19:53
Finally a RL photo of Taco!

The horse I mean.

*Badump CHAAAAA* Thank you very much I will be here all weekend! (Just kidding of course!)


Jauani, I hope your comment wasn't about me, as that's not how I feel at all.
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