Open Letter to So Many Anti-Government Whiners

i quite agree.

however, under the current model, there could be some adjustments.

under a theory that states there is no government...
as many times as it comes up, because a majority rule on the opinion doesn't matter.

a majority that can impose its will of silence on a topic such as government is a de facto government.

people think government is about constitutions, leaders, and voting; and they are right... for some forms of government. in other governments it's about other things. but the common thing among all governments or social orders is that they control things - those things are usually resources of some sort.

currently most of the primary power to control sl is in hands of ll employees. that is the goverment. and in this government secondary power exists in the ability to influence an employee's exercise of their powers. most of that secondary power is in the hands of people who have good ties with ll employees for whatever reason. tertiary power exists in the ability to find people who have influence with ll's decision making process.

power in a government is "simply" the ability to make some desired thing happen.

it is unlikely (and i feel highly undesirable) that the residents of sl get any primary power over sl.

however, most of the secondary power is concentrated in a small proportion of sl residents. these are the people who can get the attention of sl through whatever methods and for whatever reasons. and like most of the primary power, this secondary power is mainly used in benign and beneficial ways.

kathy is proposing a method of democratizing the secondary power even further.

the problem with this is that, it will diminish the power of those already having secondary power, the need for democratization is unproven, and it will create a whole bunch of unknowns.

the benefits are purely hypothetically at this time.

I can see how you would feel that way. I suspect many people are that optimistic. However, I have more than a few forum battles under my belt by now, and I tend to take a more pragmatic view of the process.

For instance, if I engage in a bloody fight – both here and inworld – over someone’s treasonous construction in Jessie, and it results, after many casualties, in an EXTREMELY pro-free-speech ruling by the Lindens in public, then was I wise to begin the battle?

Perhaps. Though I do admit it can be extremely irritating. Though I try to restrict the irritation to those who least earned my conciliation.

I have to repeat though: I was not being insulting and nasty to anyone. I was being aggressive and dismissive to a category of persons who are aggressive and dismissive. I was careful not to be specific, therefore, it was a useful tool to see who would claim membership in a group I hadn’t named anyone to. Who came through the original posting with the sure knowledge that I meant THEM? Of course, it did turn out to be less revealing than I had originally thought it would be. Actually, many of those who thought I was singling them out were complete surprises to me.

In fact, the reason I started a new thread was so that no one in an existing thread would assume I meant them just because my post was right after theirs.

Still, after saying all that, I have to say I wasn’t all that concerned with “more positive responses.” My goal was to have a discussion specifically on the points that the opponents always raise. I was done watching the whole topic being blown-off dismissively without any thought that there might be some solutions outside the box.

So, I apologize if you thought I was attacking you. Furthest thing from my mind

Thanks Kathy, I will apologize in kind for lumping you with Ulrika. She is another matter indeed. I will say here for everyone to see that you were quite willing to compromise when we were discussing the church. Too bad Ulrika felt the need to but in.

Very Eloquent Reply Kathy.

I think what I was trying to point out in a haphazard manor as you so delicatly put it this proposal is not a government at all.

It's more so a Lobbying group to pass on concerns of the people that do not frequent the forums and delve into debate about governmental systems.

This type of grouping or organization I feel would be benificial as it would allow those that feel they don't have a voice a method to speak. So in that respect I applaud your theorectical idea.

My fight from day one on this whole matter or basicaly my agenda is to prevent players from gaining any more power than I have as an individual.

Some consider this attitude anti-government. Yes, in a sense it is but primarly more so on the aspect as you pointed out the Lindens should handle arbitration.

I am not against Lobbist, as I do the exact same thing. I lobby my view points until I am either answered satisfactorly or my intrest in it wanes to the point of bordom.

The primary difference between "Government" and "Lobbying Group/Organization" for those that don't know or understand is a Government has "POWER" to effect change.

A Lobbist or Lobbist group affect change through a voice of people not through actual power.

If the governmental body in power is willing to listen, as you stated the Lindens are, then yes change can be affected.

Without that key aspect of the empowering body being "Willing" to listen a lobbying group has no more affect than a fly pissing in a thunderstorm.

This is why I understand your proposal now but still yet I still feel its not a government per sey.

So in that respect I will refer to it as a Lobbying group or Lobbying Organization.

Based on your disertation of its organization it will have no power, it will have no effect on my abilities and I do not have to submit my freedoms for it to execute its operations.

Thus I sheath my sword of opposition and await the next assault against my personal freedoms as a citizen of second life.

As a conclusion of understanding for those that are still uncertain. I will and do stand against a "Governmental body" comprised of fellow players that would have any power to control or affect my personal rights within the realm of Second Life.

With organized lobbying parties that can affect change through thier voice or written proposals that go directly to Linden Lab.
It would behove any person seeking to maintain their rights to be active participants.
Why?
Because these same bodies that do not have power can in essence change that to where what I truly stand against comes into play.

Granted Kathy's Vision is a very ammicable and novel one.
Yes, it can be implimented.
But subsequentially can be subverted just the same, not as much as a true Government body would.

Thus, I am not against Kathy's organization however, to prevent what I stand against I do advocate actively participating either through voice in those meetings or by becoming a subscriber to the minutes those meetings will produce. Either way information is key and lack of knowledge will not be an excuse to oppose change after it happens.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

I agree with exactly what Shadow just said, but I do have one additional question.

There are many groups in Second Life, many of them are not geographically representative, in other words they are groups because they have something in common, not because they got together and formed a "zoned" sim.

Will those groups be included?

How will you include individuals who do not belong to groups.

How do you intend to solicit input from groups that were formed because of clubs and malls? Will they be included?

it's funny what people will agree to if you give it the right name.

it doesn't matter what a thing is called so much as what it does.

lobbying groups affect policy. this affect on policy can vary in the degree to which it is direct or indirect, but do not for a moment forget that this is a form of power.

i happen to dislike lobbying groups as they mask their power through genteel and seemingly non-governmental power. i find it very dishonest.

lobbying groups an focus attention on particular issues and recommend solutions. this tends to leave out some other issues and other solutions. this is the power of ideas.

if anything, sl is the manifestation of the power of ideas.

which ideas are part of the social paradigm and which are not is a subtle but very potent power.

currently, most of that power resides with the ll employees, but what part of that power does not resides with them resides primarily in the hands of the most vocal and most influential residents of sl.

I can answer that!

To help meet my needs quickly and efficiently through the creation of infrastructure (both physical and societal). I have a list of things that I would like to see get done in SL but LL provides for absolutely none of them and probably will not in the foreseeable future. In order to achieve these goals, I need to find like-minded people to self organize and implement them as a group.

Examples are themed sims, free vendor infrastructure, online reporting, dispute resolution, protection from ugly builds and terraforming.

You say that we already have groups like that. Exactly! Groups are government. They are hierarchical (simple two-tier officer/member) and allow for voting (basic single issue majority rule). Unfortunately most of them degrade to benevolent dictatorships, as that's the simplest thing to do. We have taken it to the next step in Nberg where we have a system in place to elect any citizen using a system that supports minority opinions and seeks to minimize abuse.

The purpose of Nberg is to show on a small scale that a social democracy can exist in SL, that it's fun to be a part of, and can achieve the goals of its members.

~Ulrika~

and here is where your world starts to go wrong.

government serves better when it balances the various needs within its system.

I highly recommend reading these threads!

I would very much like to go back to ignoring you, Billy. Please stop attacking me in the forums. We could all do without seeing any more posts like that.

~Ulrika~

This SL government thing is just another stab at making other players pay for some sort of RP experience. Sorry but I won't pay for your RP, you got L$ and RL currency, make your own government on your own sim and keep me out of it.

My interests are mine and as long as I don't abuse the services of Linden Labs, my right to use their product[via paying for it and etc] isn't of the concern of your little 'government'.


Zoning rules and etc, are probably be LL territory, NOT SL-gov territory considering that much of the structure of SL is based on programming not ritual, tradition and existential meanderings. Therfore to have a government or comittee outside of a private sim to decide the 'zoning rights' of users is retarded. Also, the Terms of Service is already in place then what else can this government do? Change LL's private status? I don't think so. All this government idea smells of upsurping and secondhanding the work of the LL staff and its investors.


-- Bridget

That's the whole point of having a representative assembly in Nberg, where individuals represent the ideologies of their groups and discuss and vote on issues. The entire concept of a social democracy is founded upon this. Read up on it. The whole thing is discussed over hundreds of posts in our forum or you can skip right to the constitution.

I'm sorry if a misplaced possessive pronoun led you to believe that the entire city serves my person needs. In fact I am not even a member of the representative assembly. I can only propose bills that the members vote on.

~Ulrika~

I do want make very careful use of the word “democracy”. It has gone through SO many redefinitions of the past few decades that I am seldom sure what it means when people use it.

I’m proposing the amplification, publication and organization of the voices of the representatives of local governments. I’m proposing an “equalization” of whatever secondary powers there might be.

Yes, it may very well diminish the power of some of the more expert communicators in Second Life, but it certainly won’t censor or silence them. And their access will remain identical to what it was before. If the voices of the local governments get loud enough to have an attenuating effect on privileged access, then I guess it’s working the way it should.

The need for this effect is apparent to those who deplore cronyism and power mongering. No way to broker access when everyone has it.

The benefits are indeed hypothetical. I don’t have a problem with that. If no one finds this useful, then it will simply fade away.

Just throwin' this out there....

What we've got right now is not a 'balance of needs'. What we've got is, 'if you don't like it, get out'. People complain about how bad government is before it has a chance to balance anything.

You're already in a government. It's one that values individual libertarianism over social organization and is led by a group of benevolent demigods called the Lindens. We are simply suggesting alternative governments that would give individuals a more powerful and beautiful society.

If you don't want it you don't have to be a part of it. The decision is not binary.

~Ulrika~

We could also do without your(edited)

Maybe if you had had the decency to discuss the problems we had I would have an ounce of respect left for you but you have proved time and time again that you are closed minded, intolerant and do not deserve it.

Now quit trolling and let Shadow and Kathy get on with their conversation.

Please stop personally attacking me in the forums. I have nothing to discuss with you. Just like when you were in our group, I just want the harassment to stop.

~Ulrika~

Stone I have great respect for your intelect. Unfortunately, I think you missed the part about the empowering body listening. Without that a lobbing group is like I said no more effective than a fly pissing in a thunderstorm.

I said I understood and agree with what she is trying to impliment yet at the same time I cautioned of its downfalls please don't forget that aspect as well.

Perception and information is Key. My advocating participating was merely a method of ensuring that the proposed changes do not get to LL unopposed if they encroach on what I stand agaist.

With her proposal and open enrollment so to speak this would prevent the downfalls that are seen through Real World Lobbying groups.

Yes there are some that are corrupt and some that are legitimate. The difference is how you gonna bribe a Linden with Lindens...hmmm???

Lobbying in its true definition is a good thing. Through its implimentation within the Republic Democracy of the United States is a severly misused and ethically abused thing.

Dammit why did y'all make me actually have to start digging into my brain for a change...bah...

Shadow

and WE could do without you taking a private problem into a PUBLIC forum.
Ulrika is a participant in the conversation --you seem to be posting merely about Ulrika, and frankly it's both intrusive and boring.

government in sl is about how policies are shaped.

consider the recent changes in ratings. did ll change this simply because they thought it was a good idea? or would this not even have come up if people in the forum hadn't kvetched about it endlessly? if the latter question is in any partial form yes, then there is a de facto governmental influence. and that influence is primarily in the hands of the loudest and most influential residents of sl.

or consider the off-topic forum. does that exist simply because ll wants it to exist? or because enough forum posters demanded it? (and mind you that the forum members make a small percentage of the total sl population.)

or consider the transfer of private islands. original policy was that private island could not be transferred. and the residents wanted to be able to transfer them, and lo! private island can be transferred.

it is clear that sl is not a dictorship or strict oligarchy - ll seeks out the opinions and input of the sl residents and tries to meet what demands arise as best ll is able. in this case, power exists in the ability to influence ll - to help or coerce it to change its mind.

why should this power be held in primarily in the hands of the loudest, most eloquent, and/or most favored?

Good point but it's not really a government because LL to my knowledge is a COMPANY, Privately owned. And on top of that I believe the HQ is in the UK, therefore they yield to the Parliment[sp?] of that country and etc. They also do not provide anything but a PRODUCT.

Governments don't provide products. That's the sticky situation there.



-- Bridget is happily a customer[not a prole] of Linden Labs.

Do you REALLY think anyone is buying the poor lil ole innocent me routine? pfft

Just say it like it is... you have nothing to discuss with me or frankly anyone else who disagrees with you.

Because power isn't in the hands of the most powerful, it's in the hands of LL's owners who can decide freely of whom they wish to maintain business with. Therefore, if I pay nothing for SL, LL owner have the rights to break off my contract with the company if it called for me to pay them. =)

Remember, this is a privately held company and a privately held product/service.

-- Bridget

Here is where I draw the line and should an in world SL self government bring this about, I will dig my heels in and fight it tooth and nail. Failing that, I will leave.

The abuse potential for residents governing other residents in these manners are immense.

Kathy - you have state that zoning and "ugly build" protection is not, will not be, what will transpire following your plan. What will stop it from morphing into this?

Be a nice fellow and take this where it belongs --OFF THE PUBLIC FORUMS. If you have issues with Ulrika -- then PM her --if she doesn't wanna return your PMs then walk away --because WE care even less than she does.