Atheists who attack Christianity

In general, Christians don't believe their good/bad deeds are what merit heaven or hell. According to Paul good works can not merit salvation, or it wouldn't be a gift of God.

One either accepts salvation through Christ or not, as I understand it.

Kevin, there are somethings I can't forgive myself for. I would not ask the Lord to forgive something I can't forgive myself for.

If God created you as you are, wouldn't it be a slap in His face to refuse to forgive yourself for a thing God has already forgiven?

HAHAHAHAHA!!

*gasp* *gasp* *gasp*

HAHAHAHAHA!!

Actually... it's throughout the bible... I didn't make the association... you have incest, murder, god kills LOTS of babies...

Blame the author for the content, not the critic.

and its in the Koran as well, but who's counting?

Apparently you are. Oh, and to further the statement... I associated the bible with death and sex, not christians. And that was a reason I don't want it taught in public schools.

Soooo, are we on the same page yet?

I am still giggling over the death and sex line... hehehe

Kevin, there is only one person on this forum who knows why I carry so much guilt. Now I don't really want to go into it here.

Maybe he has a feeling deep down that forgiveness doesn't come from god, but from within? Perhaps being responsible for what we do is more important than getting away with it using the jesus card?

Kinda, my feelings are that, you have to forgive yourself before you can ask for forgiveness from others, God included.

By the standards with which the terms brainwashing and manipulation are bandied about, any school is involved in "brainwashing" and "manipulation". This is generally referred to as "education" when it involves a subject that enjoys a consensus about its reality.

Well, depending on the situation and the circumstances, sometimes I would want to know others can forgive me before I can forgive myself.

Education is the teaching of something. Brainwashing is conditioning to believe something regardless of supporting evidence or reason.

"Do not question your faith or god will smite you" is a good example of brainwashing.

So is "All religions are manipulative packs of liars, don't ever listen to them".

Funny which example you chose, no?

Your belief is irrelevant, and there /is/ a level playing field - it's called "science". Demonstrate that your notion is scientific, and it gets taught as science in science classes. "Intelligent Design" is not science, and is derived solely from a fundamentalist biblical literalist interpretation of the Tanakh with the fruits of /actual/ science taken out of context to make it appear legitimate to laypeople.

The playing field is level. Intelligent Design advocates want it tilted in their favour, and no goalie on duty. Intelligent Design's argument /was/ aired: in many public forums, over the Internet, on television, radio stations, in churches across the United States, and with a multi-million-dollar PR push by a racist hate-mongering anti-American zealot (Howard Ahmanson). Their case has even been presented in a court of law, on public record.

Countless numbers of informal and attempted-formal publications about so-called "Intelligent Design" have been published and distributed.

"Intelligent Design" is not being "suppressed". To suggest that anything with the wide PR blitz of the "intelligent design" movement is being /suppressed/ - the arrogance is /breathtaking/. Galileo was suppressed. Tycho Brahe - suppressed. Jews in Germany in the late 1930's - Suppressed. "Intelligent Design" has taken advantage of the full scope of the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and has clamoured for /more/.

There is a standard of science. "Intelligent Design" failed to meet that standard. There are ZERO peer-reviewed publications in scientific literature discussing "Intelligent Design" as science, ZERO discussing Dembski's methodology (which has been shown to be bunk), ZERO serious academic work from Intelligent Design advocates.

It has been documented and demonstrated that the entirety of the advocates and push behind "Intelligent Design" are doing so as an attempt to circumvent the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States - to /push their Fundamentalist Dominionist Christianity/ on a captive audience.

I don't care how many tribal-god followers accept a superstition - their acceptance of a superstition makes it neither /true/ nor /science/ - and simply having a large number of people "accept" some arbitrary myth has never and will never make it true.

Claiming that "Intelligent Design" is somehow "suppressed" because it has failed to meet the criteria for being /actual science/ and is in fact an attempt to make an end-run around the separation of church and state - is ridiculous.

The amount of guilt has no bearing on the issue. Rejecting God's gift to you is the only issue.

Paul killed Christians before breakfast... but that didn't mean he was lost forever.

Since you are not your own, you have no right to judge yourself as being unworthy of heaven.

I can feel that I don't deserve heaven though. Now why are you argueing this with me?

Could you find the quote where I stated this? I'd love to see it.

Ooooh, I didn't say that.... nevermind.

Nor did any of your opposition in this thread state your example

Uhm, that would be because your deity/religion is not shared by everyone who has - and is guaranteed equal access to - the public schools. Your deity is also a myth. Deities do not, in fact, exist. "Macroevolution" as you put it, /is/ a scientific fact, and will be taught in science classes. I'm sure you'd be pitching a fit if public schools force your children to acknowledge Allah/Atman/Siva/the Balinese Monkey God/Ra/Odhinn as the creator of mankind and "nonmythical".

It is not science's fault that your three-thousand-year-old mythmakers were ignorant as to the origin of species and DNA, and it is not science's - nor any one else's - responsibility to help you deal with the fact that your three-thousand-year-old myths (which you blindly hold to) don't jibe with reality.

See, according to the way you think, the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it. We don't have to be burdened by your silly superstitions, though, and we don't have to teach those laughable myths in geology or cosmology classes - so your myths as to the origin of species doesn't get taught in science classes, either.

We're not teach the Vedic, Norse, Egyptian, Shinto, Balinese, Navajo, or any other silly creation myths in science class, either, so you're not being treated unfairly.

It's called "The government will not respect your establishment of religion". The separation of church and state. You're not special.

See how that works?

You can feel it, and that's a good thing, but to suggest God isn't in control, to say you have ultimate power over your destiny is a bit over the edge.

Imagine your child insisting he was too bad this year for the Christmas gift you worked so hard to provide him. He takes it and crashes it to the ground. Would tat make you happy?

No, your "creation" involves a "creator" - your deity. It is an inherently religious concept. You actually cannot teach your "creation" without implying/explicating your "creator" as a fact, and to claim otherwise exposes you as ridiculous.

We do not have answers to some things. "When is the next killer application for MP# players going to come out?" "What are next week's winning lottery numbers?" If you like the answers your religion provides you, fine. You /will/ respect other people's rights to holding and practicing their own religion - or lack thereof - without your interference.

Guess what - it doesn't matter that you think "most" people believe is real. You do not get to hijack government/public services to teach your silly myth - do it on your own dime, on your own time. What you demand and propose is immoral, unethical, and illegal - and you're ridiculous for not seeing that.

Actually, you can, but the course is about two sentances long.

How do you explain the enduring myth of heaven?

What proof do you have that "heaven" isn't a myth at all?

What Americans believe - in the realm of religion - is irrelevant.

You cannot hijack public services and tax dollars to force your religion on a captive audience, which is precisely what you want to do.

Have you gotten the message yet?

Did you read the Kitzmiller vs Dover decision?

Your silly supersitions are not the responsibility of the rest of the country; You don't get to hijack public schools to force them on others. Everyone is guaranteed freedom of religion /and/ guaranteed equal access to public services /and/ are guaranteed that there will be no religious tests for access to those services.

Your religion - your responsibility - your illusions - your problem. NOT. OURS.

Comprende? Do you get the message? Is it clear? YOURS. NOT OURS. YOURS. NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S. YOURS. NO-ONE ELSE'S. YOURS. Repeat it to yourself until it becomes clear. Re-Read the bill of rights, and figure out that it guarantees freedom of conscience to /everyone/, not just your sect/cult.

YOUR MYTH.
YOUR PROBLEM.
NOT OURS.

Forum bylaw #17: No jumping more than two sub-topical thread-rails in one post.