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Some Good Things George W Bush Has Done Domestically
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
11-02-2005 23:42
From: Memory Harker
If someone decides they'd rather let me drown than ruin their $5000 Armani suit by jumping in the water to save me? That's rather uncharitable of them, sure, but it's not harboring ill will: it's neutral.

We must've studied from different books - in mine, that is negative.

Please make sure to tell the next drowning victims family that your actions (or lack of) were simply neutral.

BTW - I don't mean to say you are wrong or I am right - I think we just have different outlooks and opinions on life.

Oh, and if you're worried about destroying a $5000 Armani suit - you shouldn't be wearing one, IMO.
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Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
11-02-2005 23:54
From: Memory Harker

Because there's a postive and there's a negative, yes; but there's also a neutral.


I had just seen a documentary on the History Channel about the search for Nazi gold. The horrifying conclusion on the show, was (and I apologize if my facts are wrong) that in the 90s the Swiss gold reserves were examined and the gold contained mercury. This was an important discovery in that mercury was used in gold tooth fillings...

I was outraged and was discussing the show with a very good friend. I was speaking of the role of the Swiss in WW2 and was implying that the swiss were somehow honorable by not taking sides.

My friend stopped me, corrected me, and said "Hey, sure the Nazis were bad, but just because the Swiss were neutral doesn't make them good. At least the other sides took a side, all the Swiss did is say 'We'll take either sides money, no questions asked, no matter how you got the money, if you're good or evil, and who had to die for you to get it'"

He altered my perception of neutrality with that statement. Being apathetic when something negative is happening makes you no better than the negative. So in essence, as in the Armani suit analogy, being neutral is essentially a negative.

And I am inclined to agree.
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
11-03-2005 00:10
From: Memory Harker
My two cents --- 'cause I'm on a posting spree, lately?

My two cents regarding the last few posts:

Magnum, Roland doesn't harbor you any ill-will.

Nobody is anybody else's responsibility ... unless they decide to take that responsibility on.

Nobody would suggest, for instance, Magnum, that you should fork over whatever funding you have to the guy on the other side of town who is more disabled and more worse-off than you are, would they? And are you doing that, Magnum? Is there anybody anywhere who's worse off than you are, whose suffering could be relieved by just a little more effort or suffering or parsimony on your part? Is there someone currently starving to death or dying of AIDS or quadraplegic and having a final, terminal recurrence of non-Hodgkins lymphoma ... is there someone like that (there are at least thousands, believe me) that you could help by diverting some of whatever money you're getting, to assist with their needs? If so, you must be harboring them an awful lot of ill will, right? No? Well, what, then?

So why should Roland have to fork over ... well, you know where I'm going with this, Magnum.

There are indeed laws and taxations that our society has put into place to succor the more unfortunate among us. And we can agree with those laws and taxations and go along with them --- for whatever reasons ---- or we can disagree with those laws and taxations and fight against them --- for whatever reason. For what we believe is the good of ourselves and the "greater good" of society as we define it in this country. But, look ... the idea that, ultimately ...

See, the thing is ... we just, you see ...

Ah --- to hell with it!

Ellie Edo (who totally rocks, btw) already went into this w/r/t people starving in Africa and so on ... and ...

And, I ... uh ... look:

I don't dislike Roland, but I don't necessarily like him, either: I don't know the man at all. The same is true, for me, of you, dear Magnum. I certainly don't enjoy agreeing with ol' Rollie for agreement's sake, is my point. But to say that he harbors you ill will because he'd rather not economically support you? Even if that lack of support meant that you would starve to death? I'm sorry, but that's not what I --- just li'l ol' me, Shoeshine Girl --- consider harboring ill-will.

Because there's a postive and there's a negative, yes; but there's also a neutral.

If someone gives me two scoops of mint chocolate-chip ice cream in a toasted waffle cone? That's positive. If someone decides they'd rather let me drown than ruin their $5000 Armani suit by jumping in the water to save me? That's rather uncharitable of them, sure, but it's not harboring ill will: it's neutral. Now, if someone comes up to me on the street and stabs me in the belly with a hunting knife? That is negative, that is harboring ill will. That, as they say in my neighborhood, is some mean-ass shit.

Eh?

At the very least, we need to keep a reign on what meaning we're assigning to the words we're using, okay?

I mean, quick, before Chip Midnight jumps back in and does it for us! ;)



This is so much bull. Totally nonsense.
Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
11-03-2005 00:21
I may have lost my way, meaningwise, without that wise Chip to lighthouse me safely to the shore.

Perhaps my assaying of the term 'neutral' was misguided.

Let me amend all that ... by not attempting to formulate a whole new taxonomy from scratch. But by merely saying that, in any case, the Armani guy we're considering --- I mean, look at him, he's got the suit, yeah, but it was a gift from his sister, the last thing she bought for him (with part of the money she won in the lottery) before she was killed by that drunk driver, and it means so much to him because of that, and he's not really so uncaring of a guy, but, hey, he doesn't know me from anybody, I could even be that same drunk driver (out of jail, already, just a little legal wrist-slap due to a fancy lawyer and a soft judge) who killed his beloved Armani-gifting sister --- the guy we're considering may be "cruel" and may be "heartless," but he doesn't harbor me ill will. He certainly doesn't harbor me enough goodwill to want to ruin the Armani suit --- which lack of good-will-harboring I, personally, find to be a failing on his part, yes, especially as regards the human-life-versus-material-object situation, just so you know --- but he doesn't bloody well harbor me any ill will.


Y'all find Ellie's post somewhere back in this thread, 'kay? (Because, gawd, I'm so tired I'm about to faceplant into the keyboard, silly Memory!) Because Ellie hit the nail right on its galvanized head, regarding all of this.

We are, all of us, by our inaction and our not giving up of luxuries (like computers with fancy video cards, like that new blouse we bought the other night, like that bar of Ghirardelli chocolate we just had to have for dessert), letting people in Africa, in India, in our own American or European hometowns, probably, suffer or starve or die or at least be considerably worse-off than we are.

Does that mean we harbor those people ill will? Does it?

Does it?

Then I'm an absolute fiend in human form.

Then I'm fucking Satan Incarnate.

And I'm going to bed.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
11-03-2005 00:24
Are you saying Magnum got trashed and killed Rolands sister?
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
11-03-2005 00:27
From: Memory Harker
Nobody would suggest, for instance, Magnum, that you should fork over whatever funding you have to the guy on the other side of town who is more disabled and more worse-off than you are, would they? And are you doing that, Magnum? Is there anybody anywhere who's worse off than you are, whose suffering could be relieved by just a little more effort or suffering or parsimony on your part? Is there someone currently starving to death or dying of AIDS or quadraplegic and having a final, terminal recurrence of non-Hodgkins lymphoma ... is there someone like that (there are at least thousands, believe me) that you could help by diverting some of whatever money you're getting, to assist with their needs? If so, you must be harboring them an awful lot of ill will, right? No? Well, what, then?

From: Magnum Serpentine
This is so much bull. Totally nonsense.

Answer the question.

Those people who are worse off than you are, who you're not spending your time and energy alleviating the suffering of? Do you harbor them ill will?

Answer the question.

Answer the question.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
back on topic
11-03-2005 00:32
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I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
11-03-2005 01:49
Roland, just wanted to add a note - I haven't seen you much in the forum, and while I disagree with your take on social security, you do an extremely good job of communicating facts in a neutral, non-inflammatory manner - and a glut of good info at that. (Thanks for explaining the depleted uranium and actual risks of radiactive material.)

...

(this part not directed to Roland)

I think one thing people hate in political discussions is when someone utters the same spin and dogma that we hear from politicians. I think people, myself included, reacted so poorly to this thread in general is because Jamie is echoing Bush's propaganda freakishly close to verbatim of what Bush actually says. It shows little reflection of the issues - and if Jamie - or anyone else - is truly passionate about beliefs that they profess, I think it sounds more thought-out and rationale if put into a person's own words.
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Hiro Pendragon
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
11-03-2005 02:16
From: Roland Hauptmann
You are not my responsibilty.


"hi! i gained all the wisdom i needed from skimming probably read ayn rand novels"
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Jauani Wu
hero of justice
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Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
11-03-2005 04:03
From: someone
This is actually incorrect. There was a PROJECTED surplus. Meaning, that if the economy had continued to boom as it did during the late 90's, there would have been one.

Actually it is correct. There was a real surplus in Social Security. There were further projected surpluses for the future, but when Clinton left office there was a very real surplus. That surplus was then used to pay down the debt and there was much debate on the subject.

From: someone
I'm 27 years old. I will never see a penny of the money I have contributed to social security. The system is guaranteed to collapse by the time I retire. For this reason, I have the foresight to have a totally separate retirement account for myself, which I manage myself.

That is not a true statement. I encourage everyone to go and read the facts about social security. I know it is fashionable at 27 to be fire and brimstone about social security. I know because I was once 27. :)

That type of chicken little comment, while good for turning heads, doesn't have much real value.

I am really concerned by the recent selfishness of Americans. It seems so foreign to me that people ask why they have to contribute to their fellow man.

I make a lot of money. I pay a lot of taxes. I save my own money, I am glad to pay my taxes and I still find ways to contribute directly to charities. I am a citizen. There are responsiblities that go along with that.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
11-03-2005 08:37
From: Hiro Pendragon

(this part not directed to Roland)

I think one thing people hate in political discussions is when someone utters the same spin and dogma that we hear from politicians. I think people, myself included, reacted so poorly to this thread in general is because Jamie is echoing Bush's propaganda freakishly close to verbatim of what Bush actually says. It shows little reflection of the issues - and if Jamie - or anyone else - is truly passionate about beliefs that they profess, I think it sounds more thought-out and rationale if put into a person's own words.


Well put.

Yes, this is a "me too" post. HATE ME.
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