Two US soldiers tortured to death, where is the outrage from the left now????

What I believe is that once they gets a taste of freedom, it will spread throughout the entire region. I believe that it will take years and years and years, but once freedom has a foothold in the middle east, it will be unstoppable. Thousands of Iraqis have willingly given their lived fighting along side of us for this freedom btw, something that once again, the left NEVER mentions. That is what I think.

It has been said over and over. War is hell. That cuts both ways. The real danger about war in the modern world is that wel don't think war is hell, and we don't think war should be hell.

We have decided that we can wage war cleanly. That only sodliers die, and even then when they die its a fair fight. We worry now about displaced persons, and nation building, and the opinions of the UN. We worry less about winning and figthing wars than we do about looking correct while doing it.

It used to be that war was a break down of every other means of diplomacy. War was the hell we never wanted, and when war came, the rules were those of Ares and not Athena. We held the face of wr back as the threat, the thing you do not want to do, because by god the application of military force to a problem is unleashing the hammer of god.

Now war is a diplomatic tool. Now, war is special operations on a grand scale. Get in, get out, and have plausible deniability with a minimal loss of life.

The left and the right are equally guilty in tryig to make war antiseptic, and equally guilty in ensuring that we will ahve war after war, vietnam after vietnam, for the forseeable future. The biggesnt horror of modern man's political imagination is "limited war" or "low intesity conflict."

War is now the acceptable opition, and is no longer the military one. Its a shame, because any general might have said, you can't build a nation with soldiers, you can only occupy it. A better military goal in Iraq would be to defend the oilfields, ensure the flow of oil while holding profits in trust for the Iraqi goverment, when it gets organized. At least that would have been a military mission.

As far as the detainees in gitmo, I say roll out the drumhead, pick three serving line officers to be a tribunal, and try them. My guess is the verdicts will be guilty and then we can simply shoot them out back.

Of course we lose any potential intelligence value, but everyone will say military intelligence is an oxymoron. Its a shame, really, that our people have so little respect for those who defend our country. However it is also a shame to have a president who knows nothing of history to send them into a losing situation.

Not really. You like to complain about how we fucked everything up over there, how we've killed 30,000 "innocents", displaced millions, et al. But you duck when someone asks what would have happened if we hadn't invaded.

You see that there are problems, you see that we are there and then you conclude that it's our fault for being there. Quite a leap.

I understand it's far more entertaining to trade barbs with irrational hotheads than to engage in a serious discussion, but it's not very productive.

Let's pretend that my "sacred religion" tells me to... oh... KILL YOU BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE SAME THING AS ME... you still think it is not garbage? Very weak argument.

I don't think we're doing a very good job of giving them a taste of "freedom".

Right now we are ensuring that generations of Iraqi will be terrorists who want nothing more than to destroy us. Good job!

We fucked up their country, Billy. WE DID THAT.

You don't get it. We are the bad guys in this movie.

Actually, I think this thread is a great example of the mind disease that is Christianity: love, compassion, and salvation for Christians; hate and death for the rest of humanity (and that includes both Muslims and leftists of course). As far as US liberals and generally sane individuals are concerned, there's an enemy out there, but there's a greater enemy closer at home.

If we hadn't invaded the vast majority of those people would still be alive. We didn't invade at the behest of the Iraqi people asking for our help. We invaded at the behest of Iraqi expatriots with agendas, the defense industry, and the incredible naivete of the neo-conservatives.

To wit...



I believe that's called "drinking the koolaide."

It is unspeakably vile to use these people's death as way to attack a political view point, then have an all out and ignorant attack on a religion. It's like saying all Jews or Christians think the same, which I know is not true because I don't think anything like the poster.

Why should I be more outraged by two servicemen being killed / tourtured then what the servicemen do to the people of Iraq? The US INVADED their country!! And all because of lies from the RIGHT wing. The same people that have condoned TORTURE!!! Where is the RIGHT WING outrage about the torture and killing done in their name??? Where is the outrage on killing women and children in their homes ??? Oh thats right .... the right wing has a double standard ... do as they say not as they do. My outrage?? How the right wing relegious freeks are trying to control this country based on HATE. How they are trying to say HATE=LOVE .... WAR= PEACE ... and other hateful lies the right wing is famous for. I am thankful that I have a mind and use it ... and refuse to follow Hate propaganda just because some so called leader says so.

Hi, Billy. You seem like a straight-up guy (I enjoy most of your posts); and I'd like to talk with you about this.

First off, I'm definitely a liberal.

Sadly, I'm not much of an activist. I spend most of my time working, trying to keep the house clean on weekends, and taking the kids places. Oh. And building in Second Life! I was a precinct captain for Mondale in, what was it, 1984? But since then I've not done much but vote and share my opinion with people at parties.

I'm not sure what "bleeding heart" means. It does sound bad, doesn't it? And the more I think about it, the harder it is to get a handle on. Surely you don't just mean someone who tries to treat everyone with charity (poor translation for _agape_, but I don't know a better one)?

The thing that hooked me in your post is that you say you want people to get angry. What I want to know is: why? Anger makes people behave irrationally. Monkeys can get angry. We have parts of our minds that set us above monkeys: reason and charity. Anger blinds us to both; and both are desperately needed now.

To tell the truth, I _have_ been angry about what's happening in Iraq; but now I am just depressed, and beginning to be afraid.

Who ever thought that it was going to be possible to sow war and reap peace? Okay, I'm getting angry again.

Every Iraqi (innocent or not) that dies at the hand of one of our soldiers leaves behind dozens of friends and family members. Do you want them to be angry? It would be better if they didn't, don't you agree? If they are, do you expect them to get over it any time soon? Or shall we just kill them, too? Some of them are now a lot more likely to commit the crimes which would allow us to justify it.

We have sown the seeds of war for generations to come.

Maybe I didn't want to talk about this, after all. I think I'll go put my head back in the sand and spend my time aligning textures on prims. Ooh. And shunt my anger into Linden Labs registration policy ...

double-posted.

your religion does tell you to kill because someone doesn't believe the same thing as you.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

No, it's not a small thing, but what about the other 2500+ servicemen and women that have been killed?

While I consider myself a Christian, I recognize that fundimentalism tends to take religious scripture out of context to support off-center ideologies, no matter what the core faith is.

As far as the Quran, I'm generally unfamiliar with it, and have heard the quote of "Kill the Infidel" before as well. This thread prompted me to do some quick websearching, and I came up with this. If there are inaccuracies here, I'd welcome the education:

=========

“Kill all the disbelievers wherever you find them” (Qur’an 9:5)



[1] “Kill the Disbelievers where ever you find them” is actually a mistranslation commonly made by non Muslims again and again, the word “disbelievers” in Arabic is “Kafiruwn” which is not found anywhere in the Arabic text of this verse, the word that is commonly mistranslated is “Mushrikeen” which literally means “idol worshippers”, so this verse of the Qur’an actually reads:

“Kill the Idol worshippers where ever you find them” (Qur’an 9:5)

Yes, one may say that idol worshippers are disbelievers but not all disbelievers are idol worshippers, therefore it is wrong to use the generic term of disbelievers denoting the whole genus of non Muslims, in this manner many orienlentalists have propagated a clouded misinterpretation of Islam of being a violent and barbaric religion.

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who don’t fight you on account of your religion nor drive you out from your homes. Verily Allah loves those who are just. (Qur’an 60:

[2] Secondly by quoting this verse for their intended purpose they are in fact making a contextual error, in order for me to explain I have to go through the context of this verse and give a short commentary about the reason for this revelation.


THE CONTEXT OF SURAH TAWBAH VERSE 5

[1] This is declaration of disassociation from Allah and His Messenger to those idolaters with whom you had entered into a contract and they did not keep it.

[2] Then go about in the land for four months and know that you can not tire Allah and Allah is to humiliate the infidels.

[3] And there is proclamation from Allah and His Messenger to all People on the day of Great Pilgrimage that Allah is rid of the polytheists and so His Messenger, if you then repent it is then good for you, and if you turn you' face then know that you can not tire Allah. And give good tidings to infidels of a painful torment.

[4] But those Idolaters with whom you had covenanted they did not detract anything in your Contract, and did not help any one against you then fulfil their covenant till the promised day. Undoubtedly, Allah loves the pious ones.

[5] Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the Idolaters wherever you find them and catch them, and confine them and sit in wait for them at every place; again if they repent and establish prayer and give the poor-due then leave their way. Verily Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Reason for revelation:

There was a treaty that was drawn between the pagans of Makkah and the Muslims in which their was to be no war for 20 years however the pagans broke the treaty by helping the enemy’s of the Muslims with weapons against them. The pagans were given a four months security with a warning in which if they don’t make up for their wrong doing they would face humiliation except for the idolaters that were true to their contract as we see in verse 4 they had promise of security.

We see clearly from the context this verse was revealed for that time and that time only, for example the Americans were at war with Vietnam many years ago, suppose the president of America said or the leading commander of the army commanded their soldiers to “kill the Vietnamese wherever you find them”, if I was to quote the president or commander out of the contextual timeframe of his statement, indeed it would make him sound barbaric but if I was to quote in context then indeed it would sound very logical.

[3] The Qur’an is unique and you will not find another book on the face of the earth like it, I would like to point your attention to the verse that comes after the context:

[6] And 'O beloved Prophet'. If any of the Idolaters ask your protection, then give him protection that he may hear the word of Allah then convey him to his place of security. This is because they are the people ignorant.

Now do you know of any army general that would spare the opposition and escort them to a place of safety? Indeed this ruling is very unique, and Islam has many other rulings which offer security to innocent people in war and so forth, I lay down the challenge to anybody that can find me a more Merciful and Just battle warrior than my beloved Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him].

[4] THE TABLES CAN BE TURNED

As Islam can be made out to be a ruthless and barbaric religion by orienlentalists and the media by quoting a few verses out of context so can Christianity and Judaism even more so by using the same methodology, for example I present these following verse from the Bible:

[1] you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.” (Deuteronomy 7:2)

[2] You are to hamstring their horses and burn their chariots.” (Joshua 11:6)

According to the New Testament Jesus said:

[3] But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)

[4] I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:49)

[5] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division (Luke 12:51)

[6] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Matthew 10:34-35)

[7] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

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Oh, and Christians believe the Bible IS fallible, that it was written by man and yes, every word is not to be taken literally. This is MUCH different from the Koran. Muslims believe it was written by Allah and that EVERY word is the absolute truth. For a Muslim to even question a single word, a punctuation, a period… is punishable by death… in case you didn’t know.

Again, this is way off the point.

wow. That's ignorant.

You think this is true of all muslims? wow. just simply wow.

Frightening, isn't it?

Maybe most of those 30,000 would be alive, but a different 100,000 or more would be dead. Go back to this thread and tell me how Iraq was ever going to get better on its own.

/112/22/107295/7.html


We (americans) probably would have been better off continuing to explicitly or implicitly support Hussein, but it is darn near impossible to say that Iraqis would have been better off.

Um… according to THEM… yeah. How could you miss that Chip?


You are right Chip… It is all OUR fault… rofl. We did this to our farking selves… rofl. I usually see the logic behind your posts even though I may or may not agree, but not this time my friend.


You assume I don’t… shame on you. I have friends from Iraq… they are THRILLED that we are there and that their families have a chance for freedom… nuff said.


My comment was not about justifying the was Chip, read the original post again. My comment was about how the hypocritical left reacts towards the terrorists actions vs the actions of the United States military.

The terrorists ARE ANIMALS Chip, and I will stand by that forever.

Christ tell ya that?

Are your Iraqi friends Muslim? I am sure they would LOVE your rhetoric if they are.

I love how you keep attacking "the left" rather than focusing on issues.

It's easier to think they're animals than accept the potential for violence in himself.

But Burnman --THAT's what this thread is about.

Rather than Billy being outraged about the event -he is outraged that the "lefties" are equally outraged by the violence of both sides.