Secondlife Sellers Guild

I find thin horizontal signature images better than big squarish ones.
Even thinner than this would be better.

I've been boycotting stroker since he tried to censor someone doing reviews of a bought product. Like I said, EASY to dismiss.

I am replying to myself because I feel my post make have been overlooked in the shuffle.

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the methods of protest I pointed out?

Seems to me you're trying to censor his thread by shouting really loudly about stuff and trying to turn it into a debacle.

There are now a lot of post in this thread that can be moved to a new one.. I dont point to any special.. but personal discussions that dont let this thread breath.. or only try to kill the good thing... maybe can be posted by IMs or mails?

Be positive please.. bring the best out from you - AL - and let us change our SL life to a better one - please.. please..

/Tina - UPP TILL KAMP!))

could we meet so

We could vote or elect a group(5ish) to investigate the claims.


we could have the creator write up and pass the offense in detail on a note card to one of the five designated ...some one takes the case..finds 4 others to help see if it is a question of copying work


so we have 5 claims officers and they pull 4 from group members to help investigate it

they interview the creator and then start their investigation.
If the 5 agree or majority rules that it is a rip off of someones work..and if it is in question we can all look and give opinions but the 5 make the final decision...so its a calm vote not a witch hunt. a bit of structure will be needed unfortunately

we post a sign in all our stores supporting sl guild and with a url to the web site where the offenders products and their names are posted and the original creators name and product

or if this is to envasive the post the real creator with the real items and say beware of copies..

and we all ban that person from our stores, our sims...and mute them. if they rent space refund and ban them.

ostersize them

yes i know about alts, but its a step

I dont see any good comming from not supporting Lindens, or not helping out in game

Well Lewis how would you feel if someone stole your original art and designs and either sold them or claimed them as their own? You may not be in it for profit, but those still would be your designs and creations - your time and hard work. Its not as simple as Linden Lab changing the focus of Second Life to having fun from making money. Such assertions are quite narrowminded. You can have fun in Second Life and you can make money. Both are viable options and neither one should completely displace the other.

WHile I am not overly concerned with making money from my design work. I still feel that the stuff I design are my original creations and would be pissed if someone stole them or claimed them as their own.

Hey, you can't always be right. It's alright, I accept your apology.

I'm maxed out on groups too, but I feel that it's about time content creators came together to leverage ourknowledge, creativity and collective strength to encourage Linden Lab to address IP and permission issues.

I'm going to stay tuned.

* copy the linden property, builds, and objects
--> Most of these are free to copy already. For those that are not, copying them in ways other than the approved uses is just endorsing the IP theft behaviors that this group wishes to prevent. You don't get the mall to improve shoplifting security by becoming a shoplifter yourself.

* start selling freebees
--> And this type of theft benefits the situation in what manner?

* have every call into the town hall meetings be stating this problem
--> Tried that with the open registration issue, and were politely ignored.

* stop buying land and stop bidding in auctions
--> This might have some financial impact that LL might notice, but has no tracable way of showing that it is in any way related to IP theft issues. And for many of the IP creators, they don't often buy more land. For those who own the land their stores are on, selling off that land and permenantly closing the store loses too much business revenue for the tiny impact it would have on Linden Labs.

* give in world lindens the silent treatment
Again, this has no tracable way of showing that it is in any way related to IP theft issues. Most of the Lindens would probably appreciate it if no one spoke to them when they were in-world.

* delete your alts
--> Already did delete the few protest alts that I created. Actually told LL to eliminate the accounts, and didn't merely stop using them. I am sure they were replaved by new free accounts within minutes of my 'departure', and so had no lasting impact. The couple I still have are needed to maintain my groups and to do some types of building work. While a massive removal of alts might get a little notice, Linden Labs can still claim them among 'accounts created to date', which is all the current 'population' numbers actually represent. They certainly don't represent active accounts...

* stop buying lindens$
--> Might work, if enough people did. Then again, a successful content creator likely has more Lindens coming in than they can manage to spend. I haven't paid to buy lindens for many months now, though I have sold them off several times recently.

* stop helping newbies
* stop teaching classes
--> Again, this has no tracable way of showing that it is in any way related to IP theft issues.

============

What I think might work would be for the group to come up with effective policy and procedural changes that could be recommended, and petition LL to implement them. There are some smart, creative people in this group. Come up with enough smart, creative solutions, and LL just might try a few of them.

As for store closures or refusing to make new content, I think you would need something on a par with SL Exchange, SL Boutique, Furnation Skymall and half a dozen other major retail sites doing a full-scale synchronized sales shutdown to even cause a slight ripple in the financial waters of SL. Individual shop owners, even those as widely known and whose wares are as sought after as Stroker Serpentine or as the people at SS Labs or Celestial Studios, will have little impact.

Thank you, Flipper. I'll add that RH Engel makes quality jewelry - I own some. And "RH" is Engel the jeweler in the original context, NOT Rebel Hope. <chuckle> Jonas thinks I'm the one with the reading disability

Is Jonas one of those people who think that if they aren't aware of something it doesn't exist?

I'm foursquare in on this group, even with my piddling content contribution so far. I may not be equipped to shut down my stores but I certainly stand ready to contribute my voice and whatever experiences are helpful as we try to get LL's attention to this important issue.

Oh good. Never bought any of their work. Never intend to. Their opinions are worth nothing to me.

I'm putting you on ignore for a while Jonas, I have no wish to be baited, or contribute to derailing this thread, and there's only so long you can watch a trainwreck happen.

Have fun storming the castle!

You're still wrong though.

As I said earlier (and I'm home now so have the time to make a longer post) I don't think that restricting anything is going to make any significant difference, except in terms of it being symbolic.

1. The number of people in this group is not going to be very great proportional to the number of people who are actually making stuff in SL. There will always be lots who aren't interested in any of it, new people who will come in and learn - and they learn fast - and people who've just never heard of it.

2. Individually, I'm afraid, the content creation of content creators don't actually have nearly as much influence as they would like. It doesn't matter how good you are (and I'm not by any means impugning the skills of anyone here) you don't actually make that much difference to SL as a whole. Nobody provides a service that they can't get elsewhere; even SLX and SLB stopping wouldn't stop people making and buying items.

More importantly, even if a number of the most talented creators stopped it would take a long time before that started to have an effect on LL's bottom line and uptake rates, longer I think than the holdout time for the strikers.

And that's an important point. CCors are CCors because they like building and scripting and making clothes and skins and so on. They are creative, they like being creators. I can imagine what it would be like for me to stop doing things for the period of months - minimum - that it would take to make a difference... it would be painful. That's why I'm here in the first place. People will scab, they'll start making things and handing them out in secret.

---

On the other hand, a central lobbying position, with a number of people who are known to the Lindens, friendly with them, appreciated as being valuable contributors and decent people, all saying "look, we need this looked at, this is really serious" and supporting the position, that could be effective. LL seem to make decisions much of the time on the basis of personal contact and networks rather than broad surveys - look at SL Views.

That is of course an inherently undemocratic way to influence things and it's that which gives me pause. CCors are potentially a very powerful interest group. One thing that I would not be prepared to do is support a group that tried to get things done that I felt opposed the interests of other people. Sometimes, my interests should not come first, regardless of how well I can lobby for them.

Oh, and I don't want anything to do with an organisation that wants to be a Better Business Bureau or share griefer lists or anything like that. No ta.

What I would support is a group which lobbies for things of general benefit - say, proper changelogs (if you have a Big List Of Things To Do, surely it's not hard to have a Big List Of Things That Have Been Done) or avoiding the last-minute changes with versions that fall through the previews and cause havoc. Nobody's going to argue about that.

If this is going to go forward and not be just forum talk, I would suggest that the organisers put together a few initial points for discussion and then action. Some issues, clearly laid out, that need talking about with Lindens. That would give people a better idea of what is involved here. Otherwise, well, it's all a bit nebulous, and I've been here long enough to see suggestions for such groups appear and vanish several times.

What an amazing show of support. Some great ideas too!

I may have been premptive in mentioning closures or shut downs. There are many viable alternatives that would be just as effective. The point is that we are all in agreement that this has got to STOP!!

Collectively we can speak much louder than automated Bug Reports.

I am sure we all agree that progress has been slow and limited in the arena of IP protection and script legacy. Particularly in enforcement of consequences for blatant abusers.

Look for a Forum Group and a website soon, as well as a specific primary purpose. These will be developed by our members in the coming days. Stay Tuned!

I think that it is important that the group be free enrollment for purposes of transparency and communication. This however is just my opinion and we should leave it to the group to decide.

Be sure to share this post with your friends...lets get the word out! I am very excited to be part of something that could and will have a profound effect on the future of OUR Second Lives.

Yeah, good luck with that, buddy. Face it, SL has NO competition. It's not like you can threaten to take your ball and go play elsewhere. There *IS* no elsewhere. SL is the only MMO that offers real content creation tools.

So if you really want to protest you have only three options: you can leave SL, you can stop developing and selling in SL, or you can start your own MMO. And since you're not about to do any one of those three, why should LL or anyone else give a rat's a** about your little guild?

-Pall

Stroker, I respect what you are trying to do here, and support it.
However, so far as taking down my shops, that is an action that penalizes the wrong people entirely- Linden Lab is not going to miss being able to shop there. That would only hurt the people that enjoy shopping there.
That other residents can come to my shop, see the things I've enjoyed creating, and in turn have the chance to own and enjoy them more personally themselves, is one of the big reasons SL remains fun and worth the headache, despite all the flaws and frustrations.

If there is any way to be of assistance in this effort without depriving the everyday SLer (who is quite innocent in the various debacles), then I am in like nobody's business. I'll definitely be following how this develops with great interest.

Again, I think you're doing a positive thing in trying to unite content creators, but content creators should think long and hard about who store closures will actually effect in the end.
A united voice would be wonderful, and is worth trying for, and we *should* try for it. But we also should not penalize the wrong people.

Suppose it can be useful just thank to information sharing ability alone... for what's worth, there seems to be couple Lindens on the member list as well (i'd guess also because of this info sharing aspect) ... so apparently they do take notice to some extent ^^;

Well said. I'm more than happy to join in and unite - great idea - but I'm not about to take down my stuff either. I like the one sale a month a make!

I'm hoping we can address some of these concerns at SLCC this year. Don't forget, it's not just a party, it's a chance for some quality idea sharing and face time with the people who make this place we're all so passionate about.

Regards,

-Flip

Stroker, I agree with Nephilaine here. But I don't think you really intended shop closures to be the end all anyway. Perhaps we can brainstorm and find other, more effective ways, to stimulate some action from Linden Lab.

Absolutely Persephone!!

I admit that I was caught up in the moment as visions of Sally Fields in "Norma Rae" danced through my tired miniscule mind. Orginazation is paramount.

I feel we have enough members and support now to define our objects and primary purpose. Ordinal Malaprop made some very good points. Initially we are nebulous at best.

Personally I am ecstatic with the show of support.

Now lets get down to business!!

Join "SELLERS GUILD" for up to the minute info. I have to attend to a RL birthday, but feel free to toss out some ideas/suggestions/rants inworld.

(secong thought lets keep the rants to a minimum...we know them all by heart)

edit: LMAO at "define objects".....objectives*

This is harassment and can be AR'ed. So I'd be careful with this one. But all in all, I dig this idea. We need to stop high piracy somehow.

I agree that something definitely needs to be done,
I disagree with one of the methods suggested (shop closures).

For example....
1) You close your shop.
2) You have less revenue to cash out.
3) LL gets fewer lindex fees.
4) Fewer L$ are available for sale,
5) LL mints enough to cover the lack and profits more.

This doesn't hurt them, it helps them at our expense.

We're better off putting "Shoplifters will be persecuted!"
signs up in our stores instead, but sadly it doesn't help
with SLboutique.

Watermarking textures helps too, some.

--
Jonas Pierterson: "Oh good. Never bought any of their work. Never intend to. Their opinions are worth nothing to me."

Well, I haven't bought from you... so it's clear what your opinions should be worth to me.