Secondlife Sellers Guild

I am in.

No, but at the same time, an action that hurts only yourselves and doesn't in any way affect LL may not be the smartest way to get noticed and get what you want either.

If your shop is closed, people will just move right on to the next one. Most wont even care why it's closed. Will they remember to come back again when you reopen? Well, that's anyones guess and your gamble in all this. Hope it all works out for all concerned, but I still think what you're doing isn't the way to go about getting what you want.

I think Stroker just wants people to pay guild dues to him and he acts like he's complaining to LL, but really he's in league with the evil opressors ;0

No thank you.

i would be interested if stroker wasn't so vocal

some peoples deserve no trust

this is a non sense proposal stroker

While not a content designer I provide a venue for their wares and respect of intellectual property rights is paramount. I'll back you and will join if you want mall owners in. Would be nice for people coming to a shop to know they are getting the "real McCoy" and not some knockoff.

I don't think there's a need to organize anything. Most people will just naturally stop doing something if it becomes a pain.

So let us all pray that LL and the majority of its customers aren't into S&M.

Have you seen all the BDSM stuff for sale everywhere?

...and have you seen some of Bub's "weapons"?

We're doomed!

Dude! I can't believe you dissed Baccara and RH like that. If you don't know who they are, why not find out first before you embarrass yourself?

As for the OP, I'd be more than happy to throw my tiny lot in, but as someone whose business is only now starting out I'm afraid nobody will notice if I close or not, and those who would notice would just stop coming by. What might cost a large vendor a small percentage of traffic would cost me virtually all of mine.

I want to participate. I want to have a voice in protecting IP rights. But I don't think cutting off my own nose will help me or anyone else.

Kris is correct. Shutting down our shops will do nothing. No matter how big or important we feel we are there are hundreds of people just waiting to take over our markets. LL doesn't care who creates as long as they have someone to show the media and investors.

It is about damn time we stood up for ourselves and eachother. I joined for communication and involvment in protests and complaints which doesn't involve closing up shop. Make some picket signs, I'll wear the t-shirts in all my ads, talk to the press, lets be a thorn in LL's side.

Lewis:
Are you really this dense? No content creator I have ever spoken to doesn't do it for the enjoyment. Yea it's cool we get compensated for our hard work, but it's no where near the amount we'd get doing the same thing in the real world. The ones who are in it for the money and ruin SL are the ones who sell content that they didn't create and land barony. We are two sides fighting pretty much the same issue, but you can't look past your frivolous "I price lower then you so I'm better" mantra to see it.

Not like its any of your business, but my pricing is only based on one thing. I price my items a bit higher then known animation downloaders. Seems fair to me.

If you hate it so much here and feel the need to fight everyone that doesn't see the world through Lewis coloured glasses, I suggest you leave. I am really shocked at how you've gone through life in this manner.

So I guess we agree ... the majority of SL are masochistic enough to hold on.

We'll survive this folks.

Now to be extra serious. Things will not always go our way, but also things will not always go LL's way. They may be the ones in control of all the software and servers but certainly not everything is in their control.

They have a long-term plan that some of us see and some of us don't. For those who see it, some comprehend it, some don't, some agree with it, some don't.

What we need to do is not be in a constant tug-of-war with LL on every single thing. Also we can't expect everything to go perfectly. LL wants things to go perfectly but oftentimes that's not going to happen, anywhere. Even Bill Gates got a BSoD during a public demo.

We can't go shooting our mouths off screaming at LL to fix this or fix that and expect results in two days. That's not being realistic. If LL rushed the fix in two days I think you'll be complaining of 10 NEW bugs after that.

They make mistakes too and they have to deal with it. Likewise, we have to deal with it. If you're concerned about losing your work, keep it for now until the fix arrives.

LL has a long term plan and I seriously doubt they're going to change that on the fly. Part of that long term plan includes our best interests because for them to be successful, we also have to be successful. They know that and we don't have to remind them of it.

Do what you have to, and hope for a miracle ... but don't demand that miracles happen, that's a guaranteed road to frustration and high blood pressure.

Learn to handle situations like this coolly because it gets better results.

Im So In.

I have not joined Stroker's group, at least in part because my groups list is completely full, and I can not, at this time, eliminate any of the groups that I am in. But I also have not joined because, however well-intentioned his efforts are, I do not feel the tactics that he is proposing will have a noticeable impact on Linden Lab's policy or coding.

As a sim builder, texture artist and clothing designer, I certainly support any efforts to reduce IP theft in SL, and to make those who commit IP theft and other TOS violations be held accountable for their actions. Those who are documented as having stolen other people's intellectual property, and that includes copyright violations for RL products and services, should be subject to strict penalties, up to and including termination of all access to SL and loss of all in-world assets. The same goes for those who do rampant griefing and other TOS violations.

I recognize that there are some things, such as texture ripping, that LL can provide no technical recourse to prevent, before the fact. But that does not mean they must also turn a blind eye to clearly documented cases of blatant theft, and I am very disappointed when they fail to eliminate those who commit such theft from the grid. And it certainly does not mean that their own tools should make theft even easier for an uneducated thug to use, such as the recent eyedropper texture theft exploit, or the unlimited free accounts that make it so easy for a thief (or a griefer) to change their identity.

Unfortunately, I also feel that Linden Labs just doesn't care about this issue, or about listening to the concerns of vocal residents. They have made it pointedly clear by their actions, and by their past refusal to act, that they will proceed as they please, and will for the most part ignore those who participate in the community. I am not at all clear on what their priorities are, but the concerns of vocal groups of users do not seem to rank very highly with them, no matter what we say, or how loudly we complain.

So... count me as supporting your intent, but not, at this time, as a member of the group.

I have as much right to be here as you do, and to share my opinions on any subject I choose, whether you like it or not. Deal with it. Your problem, not mine.

Lewis

I have to say that I agree with Willow here. Although I do think that LL cares, I just don't think they really have anything they can technically do about it that will really solve the problem. And letting more people in is a catch-22. We get more customers, but we get more con-artists, too.

We all wish to have our little SL utopia, but as long as there are human's behind those avies, there's gonna be con-artists. Let's face it, how much music, software and movies are copied illegally every day in RL?! How many of us are innocent of that? There are so many ways to get free music online--even iTunes is hackable with the right programs, where you can rip the copy regulating codes from it.

When you put content out there, you are risking that it will be copied. And there is really no technical solution for it, or LL would be on it.

We need to remember that no little guy selling bootleg copies of your stuff at a garage sale in some corner of the SL universe is gonna make a dent in sales. Yes, it hurts. You hate to have your name on stuff that is obviously a horrible rip-off. And you hate that someone is making some lindens on your hard work. Now you see how RL creators feel about bootleg copies. You should file a DMCA when you find those. But in the long run, it's my opinion that we ought to spend a minimal amount of time on worrying about these sidewalk con-artists and instead remain focused on content creation.

We all know that the product is only part of the equation. In all cases I have seen the ripoff artist usually lacks the ability to market in a professional manner (If they were really creative, they would make their own products). So, although we should take time to report them when we see it, file a DMCA and alerts others, we should simply go on. As long as there are humans and a buck to be made in SL, there will be con-artists.

However, I do think a group is a good thing and I will likely join, but I'd like to see something more structured like an SL Better Business Bureau. Content Creators will need to form as a group if and when a large con-group enters the scene. Our concerns shouldn't be focused on the small bootleggers, but the prevention of large scale copying operations and/or organized crime, when and if that happens. At this point, the DMCA is our best solution for fighting that, and it does work.

But just remember, content creators, it's your creativity that differentiates you from the bootlegger. You bring new ideas to the table--you are the ones that drive the ever-changing world of SL possibilities. No one can copy that from you. Keep creating great stuff, and you'll always be a step ahead.

the group is a nice idea but it will ultimately fail for several reasons

1. Its a group open to anyone - even people who don't create or sell content.
This I don't understand. Why call a group "Sellers Guild" and give members and officers the title "SL Seller" and then allow anyone to join it?
2. Too many officers. 24 so far.
Any seller can be an officer and any resident can be a member. This will lead to serious problems with organising meetings with LL.

3. How many future scammers/thieves etc are already in this group when its open to anyone?

1. I don't know Bacarra, don't care.

2. Check the order of posts. Rebel hadn't replied as of that post. This wouldn't be a problem if you knew how to read properly, but you probably just made a mistake.

Now, again, is this sellers guild protesting the blatant IP theft by dark dharma and playbunny? If not, how the fuck do they expect their IP protection agenda to be taken seriously? You can't pick and choose whos IP you protect if you want to protect ALL IP rights.

I hope this works out for you all. We just had a bunch of content ripped off by someone, so I am all for public tarring and feathering. I can't see it working, though, due to the open nature of the group.

How are you going to handle it if one of your targets are in the group?

Will you take unverified sellers in?

/looks around suspiciously

They could be alts!

How will the targets be chosen? Group vote? That could be gamed by alts.

Nothing against alts. I have a one or two myself. Just saying they can be misused.

Will you protest at the offending store or at the welcome area or other Linden places/events? If you do it at the offending store, you will just give them traffic and help their popularity.

Will you refuse to shop at any vendor in a mall that had one of your targets? Would you demand that your members pull out of any mall that rented to scumbags?

I am not logged in to check, but is RATE still around?

If there was an independent organization run by people who don't sell things but worked like the Better Business Bureau, I'd join that. I would then only shop at places that displayed their membership.

Stroker, I know you have probably been ripped off more than most people in SL. I also know that LL isn't getting the message about how serious this is for creators and sellers motivation to stay in SL. While I can't join your group for the above reasons, I really do hope you make a positive impact. Maybe when LL sees several well organized mobs with torches and pitchforks, it will get their attention.

Good luck.

(on preview, I can see I was beaten to several of my points. I spent a while typing it, so I will post it anyway.)

Just to clear a point up - this group was founded by Psyke Phaeton, so I guess its his group.

There is one area where this group can have a major impact out of all proportion to its size and without ever closing down a single shop.

I'm referring to the technical knowledge such a group can command. If they share information and discuss in detail the methods thieves use to steal things, they're better equipped to finding ways of stopping it. Such discussions are probably best not held on this board, but in-world meetings or IM conferences are reasonable venues for those details.

LL certainly doesn't have the wherewithall nor the interest to set up a large research department on graphics theft technology. But many of the content creators and designers have a wealth of knowledge already at hand that would be immensely valuable. Call the group an "advisor's" group to LL on IP theft and trademarking tools and let the users solve the technical issues. If LL is handed the answers then they really have no legitimate excuse for not implementing tighter reins on theft.

Count me in too!

For the record, I see a few people in this thread who will be attending SLCC. There is a special interest group panel on Sunday being held by the Luskwood gang and Daniel Linden will be present. It will be discussing mainly the kinds of tools we need for self-governance on the mainland and a better SL experience (like avoiding griefers), but I'm sure a discussion of ways to deter content theft would also be included.

One of the things I know many of us are pushing for is shared banned lists. That way, for example, people could start a list that others can subscribe to, so if Indigo and Lusk were on the same list, and Lusk banned someone, they'd also be banned automatically from Indigo. Obviously, you need to trust the others in your "ban list circle", but this would be a very powerful tool. That's just one example.

Anyone who's truly interested may want to join eltee, Michi and Liam on Sunday's session to discuss the tools we need in OUR hands to be effective, rather than relying on LL to be a police force (that just ain't scalable <grin>.

Contact eltee or Michi if you're interested in joining them on Sunday!

Regards,

-Flip

Some wonderful posts!! Thanks to everyone who have thrown their hats into the ring.

I personally have been around long enough to know that Linden Lab DOES care. Unfortunately, the right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing at times. I am sure that the majority of the Developers in San Francisco spend nowhere near the amount of time inworld as we do. A lot of times it is the residents who are the first to point out an exploit or bug. (As was the case recently).

As a group we speak with a loud voice. We are larger than the sum total of our membership. This is a fledgling movement, our primarry purpose at this point is to encourage your participation as a Merchant/Designer/Supporter. There have been some great suggestions so far. None have been finalized hoever, as we intend to have a group conscience meeting soon to define our direction and activities.

Please...IM your calling card list and point them to this thread, if you believe it a worthwhile cause.

If we do not try, we fail before we start. This is not about personalities or prestige, it is about making SL a safe place to work/play/create without the frustration that comes from finding our efforts being undermined by broken code, texture theft, prim mirroring or exploitation.

This group is primarily focused on Merchants and Content Providers. Regardless of your opinions about commercialization or the financial aspects of Second Life, please take this into consideration...many of us feed our families and pay our bills through this amazing place we call Secondlife. Some of us are able to pay our broadband bill or land tier through sharing our creativity with those who are happy to reward us for our efforts.

Educational institutions are attracted to Second Life because of the ability to communicate through multiple mediums to a diverse audience all over the world. They depend on us to build for them and provide scripted objects to facilitate their endeavors. This is true for companies as well.

My point being that the issues we intend to tackle have a profound effect on all of us, from the Corporation looking for exposure to the 1 hour noob who just spent his last $L100 on something he could have gotten for free.

Please put your adverse opinions aside and show us the support we ALL deserve to help make Second Life a better place for everyone.

The group is free to join...Use Search/Groups to find "SELLERS GUILD"

Psst. Wrong account, dude. You needed to respond with your other trolling alt.