Lindens - is this *really* how you want things to be?

It struck me as I was searching for a thread that I had read this morning, which was now no longer there, just how authoritarian and repressive the atmosphere of these forums has become.

The threads talking about suspension of the account of a prominent sl member have been removed, and the only way people have been able to discuss the matter has been in code. Being in these forums is becoming like living in the Soviet Union during the cold war.

Is that really what you want? This goes beyond protecting people, beyond normal moderation. It appears to be censorship purely for the exercise of power. If that *is* what you want, I have to ask:

Why?

I dont know why they keep the discussion forums at all since discussion is now so censored. Well, I guess the obvious reason would be to present an artificial vanilla "alls well with the world" representation by censoring out and shutting down discussion of problems plaguing SL.

Better picture for a prospective LL buyer?

I agree. Seems like all we've got now is residents being vicious with each other, possibly more unrestrained than ever (regarding Anshe, for instance), entire SUBJECTS being deemed verboten, and threads getting moved around like crazy. And I do mean "crazy."

The Anshe thing - whichever resmod moved it to Answers I thought maybe was doing a bold and wise (and unprecedented) thing, both in (a) helping to get an answer soon, and (b) preventing more of that unseemly and horrific and off-putting to new residents Anshe-bashing. Even though in the current climate of manic thread moving, I figured no one but me might see even that much positive about moving it.

Wild, but might work, I thought. This afternoon I look at it again, and there's a LINDEN thinking maybe it should have been in Notices and Well Wishes! Have they all lost their minds? It was in Land and Economy in the first place, which at least made some sense.

There was a thread in the PolySci forum once, asking if LL was facist. I thought that was a tad off the wall. But man, the repression these days is outrageous.

I have been having a really horrible feeling of being absolutely sat on, more than I ever felt before. All the resmod stuff, the thread movings, the STRONG message of "Do not talk about this" that I get from Torley, for example, regarding child AV sex, etc. And now the Anshe thing.

Just try to keep us from talking about these things, you will see that that sort of thing ALWAYS backfires. And the more you suspend people, the more it will backfire.

You just can't sit on ideas and hope to squash them.

coco

I offered her a job out of the goodness of my heart. I'm glad to see she's back so she doesn't have to lower herself to my level.

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=89428

*Put on his tinfoil hat*

As much as I think the Lindens are disorganized and far too lax in their self-discipline, I seriously have difficulty thinking they'd be so savvy as to suspend her and hide posts with a political agenda.

What I think is *more* likely is that they stuck to TOS, including the section that says A) dont bring disciplinary action into the forums, and B) dont bring personal disputes into the forums.

Not that I'm supporting her in her endeavor, she mostly does deserve at the very least a suspension. But that's for LL to deal with.


- Newfie

I just took a look at the Notices and Well Wishes forum.

In it is a thread called, "I Love SL."

You know, if they don't want anything in General, they should just close down General. Seems to me that was the very essence of General, and would look good IN General!!!

How is the opinion of loving SL somehow a "notice?"

Ok, well, anyway. And so there is the Anshe thread; it really DID get moved there!

This place is going to hell in a handbasket, and rapidly.

coco

eh...

when people give up the idea that ll will run the forums in way that actually follows free speech principles, then the griping will go down.

they say one thing and do another. watch what they do.

the forums are a private corporate arena and free speech need not apply.

Thank you for your intelligent and constructive response.

Your feelings clearly echo mine.

You've been saying that in excess of 13 months. Shouldn't we be there by now?

I don't see it this way.

When I read those threads about the certain member being banned, I saw a lot of personal attacks and bull.

They were not lifted for "political reasons" or because we are "not supposed to talk about it" but for valid normal reasons that we all agreed to but somehow can't seem to live up to when it comes to someone who makes a lot of cash out of the game.

Any time there is a thread about this certain person, people push each other aside to jump in with some disgusting reference to her personal life (people should seriously be ashamed of some of the things that were said), and a whole lot of stuff that has no bearing on what is actually happening. This is one of the few threads about this person that someone didn't make a racist remark as well, (possibly the thread wasn't up long enough for that.)

Seems to me that a lot of people are just jealous and can't pass up the opportunity to kick this person even when it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Then they complain about special treatment when the thread is closed, and decry the fact that they "aren't allowed to talk about her," when in fact, it's just that you aren't allowed to insult, degrade and humiliate *anyone.* If most of the people doing this kind of crap looked in the mirror once in a while and grew up a bit we wouldn't have half the thread closures we have.

My 2 cents.

Er, yes. She posted one in Land and Economy, which got moved because even if you *are* Anshe Chung your banning or not is not an L&E issue, and then another one in General duplicating that because "nobody reads that minor forum", which was just arrogant and was ARed by myself and others (took an age to get it moved though).

Not quite seeing the fascist element here.

I think the answer lies in the quote you have in your signature Selador.

When I first came to SL I was amazed by how lovely people were in world, and how horrible on the forums. When I first posted I was quite nervous about the response I might get. Though I have stopped worrying about that, this isn't a friendly place to be, on the whole, and it is dissonant from the experience in world to such an extent that I think that LL are tinkering with it to try to make it better...kinder, gentler, more welcoming.

I feel an essential ambivalence about what happened to the suspended avatar thread. On the one hand I am in favour of the residents being able to discuss everything in world. I hate the idea of it becoming forbidden to discuss the things which we are all talking about in world.

On the other hand, I do think that it was a lapse of judgement to begin the discussion there...and I felt acutely aware of all those people who might potentially be affected by it. As ever, there is a line to be drawn between things which are in the public interest and those which the public is interested in...and actually it didn't seem to me a good idea to replace private discussion about the account management with public speculation...not for the avatar concerned, OR LL OR the people who rent from her.

I think there is a role for moderation...and I think Torley demonstrated the best type of moderation when she closed the age play discussion...sometimes forums will get to the point where the same poionts are being visited and revisited, and there is little point in continuing, and I think it is right to moderate that. To my mind, discussing the ins and outs of a particular account should not be a subject for detailed discussion in the forums, but the principles underlying whether LL should treat accounts with a lot of money invested in the game differently from the rest of us, IS a subject for discussion.

I don't think people can be made to be nice to each other through moderation, and I don't think moving threads every five minutes is in anyone's interest. To be honest I really don't think posting in the wrong forum should be a matter for an abuse report, and if a moderator finds a post in the wrong forum it must be very wrong to be moved.

I do think we could try to be more like we are in world, in forum .
Cali

Well, regarding that bit, since I discovered all this a bit ago, I have realized that people were thinking "Notices and Well Wishes" as if she posted her thread in order to announce to everyone she would be out of pocket for an indeterminant time.

So now at least I understand the seeming reason for it. But - I don't think that was her intent. I think her intent was to post that she was pissed off at being unable to do her land business.

coco

I'd rather not have moderators, and yeah, they're really being a little too active lately.

I think if you employ twenty window cleaners and you only have one window, then you're eventually goinig to end up with no window.

But in the case of the Age Play threads, I think Torley did the right thing. Those threads weren't really a discussion. The threads had somebody deliberately starting a fire and the people that were trying to put the fire out couldn't see that the fire was just an illusion.

Given the amount of veiled personal attacks, repetitious posting to the point of trolling, thread derailing, and off-topic ("this will not end well" that is allowed to go on here - these forums are hardly "authoritarian and repressive".

Frankly, on any well-run forum I've been on, half the threads allowed here would be deleted (such as the multiple age play threads), and posters who constantly trolled threads repeating themselves (if you read L&E you'll spot at least three easily) would find their individual messages deleted. (As would the posters who jump in with such derailments as 'how does this effect the supply of prim babies" and "I like pie".)

I don't find it odd that threads that were a) posted in the wrong place to start with and/or b) had devolved in name calling and threats, were moved and ultimately closed. (Actually I do find it a little odd, but not much - as the moderation here is extremely uneven and of low quality.)


Not even remotely.


That's still a personal issue - not a discussion of L&E.

I do see that point of view, Starax, regarding the age play thing. I don't see it as a black-and-white sort of thing. But it is a sensitive thing, and it is not good to give the impression - and it is the impression I got - that some people are up in arms over something most people in the real world, as opposed to the rareified climate in SL, would be up against and they are being shut down on the topic and even suspended.

coco

P.S. Elde, I'm a very sort of letter-of-the-law sort of person, to a fault, sometimes, even. But in an environment where the law is applied to some, and virtually never to others, then I don't have any credence in the law as law anymore, but see it more as who it is used against and who it isn't.

And I think in these forums, the TOS serves largely as a method to throttle and punish unpopular individuals and ideas. I didn't start out thinking this. But the evidence that it happens all to often is incontrovertible.

So I no longer pay much attention to the technicalities of broken rules, since they absolutely do not apply to some, depending on who you are. I tend to pay more attention to which ideas are being sat on, and which so very, very obviously aren't. I think it is an attempt to socially engineer thoughts and attitudes, actually.

The only thing I find amazing is how many people believed this thread, and even Torley's straight-faced response.

Anshe hasn't been banned. She's online right now.

Relax, people. It -is- April 1.

I don't think so.

This was not an April Fool's joke. Yes, she is back but her account was not even showing up on Find last night so she had not been banned, rather, her account had been either suspended or cancelled. I'm not absolutely certain but I think a suspended account will still show up on Find whereas a cancelled account definately will not.

um. heh.
(Removed a picture of a certain someone showing up as online, since it may violate TOS to do so. But, basically, folks thought to be suspended/banned appear not to be.)

I think people just believe too much of what they read.

I don't think that she has any more rights to whinge about LL decisions in inappropriate forums and start new threads because she feels hard done by than anyone else. In fact, I'm a bit annoyed that it took so long to have the duplicate thread locked, though perhaps timezones are to blame there.

You took that just now, I assume, after this morning's shenanigans.

If it's an April Fool it's pretty rubbish.