Griefing Allowed to Continue

"so then what do you call the people who are amercan but dont live in the USA what do they live in some kind of america jr"

hmm I call them americans abroad. thats usually what we call US Citizens not in the USA.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

"I am not going to get into a debate of symantics with you."

Then you made a triple post doing . . . what?

"by the way its NOT overly common to refer to people by there CONTINENT"

Terms like European and Asian are really, really uncommon.

"I consider americans (of which I am one) to be WORSE (off) than any other citizens on the planet.

why ?

Because we HAVE all these wonderful freedoms and we are doing NOTHING to stop our governments and corporations from taking them away from us. (we are doing nothing as a WHOLE)"

First off, maybe you do nothing to protect civil liberties, but some of us do our part. Second, if you really believe we are worse off than everyone else on the planet, you must not read the papers. I'm disgusted by the abridgements of civil liberties perpetrated in the name of "Homeland Security," but they aren't going to flip me in jail for saying we need a regime change. I have literally wept over the way Walmart and Costco have been destroying the beautiful legacy of small town America (and it makes me ill to see Walmart has spread to other countries), but it's a fuck of a lot better than standing in line for twelve hours to get food from the Red Cross. Gee whiz, do you really think we're worse off than everyone in the entire world? You know any American kids maimed by soldiers during a wedding?

"that is sad makes me very angry."

Then do something about it.

You really have issues with getting your facts straight

"I consider americans (of which I am one) to be WORSE (off) than any other citizens on the planet.

Why did you ask me WHY ? you QUOTED the answer that you seek right after you typed WHY? ????

"Because we HAVE all these wonderful freedoms and we are doing NOTHING to stop our governments and corporations from taking them away from us. (we are doing nothing as a WHOLE)"

"First off, maybe you do nothing to protect civil liberties, but some of us do."

This statement holds NO meaning to me. Please note the LAST sentence in my above QUOTED answer to your WHY? question.

Rephrase if you desire since your statement means nothing since its not in responce to anything I said ie why did you say it ?

yes we are worse off

why ? I will explain I figured you would get it (NO offense intended with that remark its meant literally)

We are worse off because WE HAVE these freedoms and we AS A WHOLE are allowing them to be taken from us

other countries DO NOT and likely NEVER HAD these kinds of freedoms. they do not have as much to lose. they never had it to begin with. they do not need to fight to keep it they need to fight/strive to GET IT

there cause is noble and sensible. FIGHT to get freedom.

ours is worse because again WE ALREADY HAD IT and we (AGAIN AS A WHOLE) are doing NOTHING to KEEP what we already have.

thats worse than not having it at all. MUCH WORSE because thats PATHETIC and SAD. we have what so much of the world desires and we throw it away. very sad. we are FAR worse off than the rest of the world in this regard. the rest of the world has something to fight for. we already have it and squander it

as for walmart. they are one hell of a conundrum. I think walmart and their kind are going to DESTROY this countries economy. OBLITERATE IT

alas its our own stupid fault because now to do the right thing we have to PUNISH someone for doing nothing wrong (technically).

walmart did NOTHING wrong. in fact there buisness practices as destructive as they are are TOTALLY above board (in most cases)

its our stupid faults for LETTING them get to this stage. there are laws in place that SHOULD have been used to prevent this and they were not because of technicalities and power. its very sad. the only solution now is to punish walmart (ie strip them of much of there power) alas I dont think thats going to happen.

they should never have been allowed to get so powerful. the end result of such power will ALWAYS be bad for the general populace.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

"Terms like European and Asian are really, really uncommon."

When referring to one specific set of people YES its very uncommon

are you going to goto china and say these people are asians. no there chinese

americans is NOT a GENERAL term like european and asian its SPECIFIC referring to the people of the United States of American and you know it.

european and asian do not refer to peoples Nathionality so much as there ethnicity (proper word ??)

the GENERAL terms your looking for are North Americans and South Americans etc.. terms which I did not use in my original post so the confusion is yours and yours alone.

Chris Taylor
htp://www.nerys.com/

"Why did you ask me WHY ? you QUOTED the answer that you seek right after you typed WHY? ????"

That "why" was part of the quote. You said it, and I quoted it.

Anyway, I just disagree with you. I can't say that we are worse off than people who are in the middle of a war zone, or who'd get shot for voicing complaints about their government, or who are starving.

This is already off topic, and the Walmart/Costco thing is way off topic. You want to know what laws they've broken, go ahead and do a Web search. You'll turn up plenty.

I think the problem we are having is . . . semantics. The way you're using the term "worse off" doesn't make sense to me. And since you said you don't want to argue semantics, and we're off topic, I'm dropping this discussion.

Fighting to hold onto hard-won freedoms is just as vital and noble as winning them in the first place.

PLEASE stop talking garbage

You are not in AMERICA

You are not in EUROPE

You are not in ASIA

And your customs and freedom ranting does not belong HERE. This is the internet and this is Second Life and HERE you are a citizen of THIS world and not the one you belong to in real life.

The only relevant things here are what apply to THIS world, nobody gives a rats arse about the gun lobby in America or jumping in front of tanks in China because thats not Second Life.

In short - if you stop trying to ram your countries culture down our throats then THIS country would be a much better place, savvy?

Stop talking bullshit on a gaming forum please - FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM?? - if you want to fight for freedom then get off your couch potato arse and go catch some bullets but PLEASE stop waving the fking flag in a GAME forum because its getting OLD.

Well said, Sox.

There are new possibilities in this new world, new freedoms, and fewer inherent constraints since the resources are virtual. Let's look forwards, and leave the bad things of RL behind us.

Sox, please calm down and skip the insults about people's arses and interests. Morgaine, you participated in this digression yourself -- I got involved in this thread in response to your post. Anyway, I already said the conversation had gone off topic and that I was dropping it. Go eat some chocolate and have a nice day.

Seems to me that most Europeans are lining up and begging to give their freedom to a lot of fat-assed Belgian bureaucrats

Hrm... there's something wrong with my browser. The subject says "Griefing allowed to continue" but when I flip to the end of the thread, it takes me to the offtopic forum.

Might not be your browser Travis, I'm having the same issues here..
But it's ok, the bug report has been submitted and we should expect a fix within the next few versions..
Just kidding, of course...

welll............in order to classify you self and every one correctly(by useing american incorrectly this came about) you have to get in to semantics other wise people will look at you stupid as a whole north america wasnt the first to have european colonies. then we have the problem of peole useing the term american to identify them self as a us citizen.

if you were to treat this as a equation then

if

us citizens = american
and
any one living on north and south american contenents are us citizens as well(because they are american)
thats where the term become flawed

Getting back to the original point here, I agree that people within "private owned land" should be able to do what's necessary to get rid of Griefers. I've had them hit our RP tavern (which was being built at the time) with all kinds of smoke bombs (that made it very difficult to locate in the older version of SL) and would stand on the edge of our land and shoot people out of the sim before they could get into the tavern. They were of course, banned, and scripts on my land were turned off. But that didn't do any good since they weren't on my land. Some of my friends, of course, shot them back - Those friends were given a warning by the Lindens. We were appalled.

The administration management we have as landowners is absurd. And I don't want to sound pompous and arrogant, but when I"m paying $40 a month for land, and some pissant non-subscriber comes up disrupting things, I Think I should have a little more pull in the matter. In any case, the admin options we have are a joke.

Here's what I would like to see: #1. Give us some better allowed-user options. Right now our land is group owned, and I'd like to allow people from certain groups only into our land. Unfortunately, since the land is group owned, only the people in -that- group could be set with our current options. We can only had 50 individuals after that. Otherwise all we can do is ban - which only a certain number of people we can do.

Banning after the fact is not very helpful. It's not preventative administration. We all know that griefers are going to happen, so we'd like to protect ourselves -before- they can come around disrupting things.

Another option I want to see -> When you ban a user, you should render any objects, scripts, etc useless if they try to put it on your land. If they try to shoot at your people, their script should stop working as soon as it crosses your boundary. If they try to drop in C4 (for example), the object should be immediately returned to them. Honestly what I would love to see is one of their own bullets richocheted right back at them and shoot themselves off the sim.

If a user is banned, everything about the user should be banned - objects, scripts, and even their text.

I would go one further and say it should never cross the border.
Any physical projected objects (not vehicles -- as in - not sat on) should be returned
to the persons inv.

Vehicles already 'bounce' out of the red bars... and last time I tried you couldn't 'sit hack' (sit on a non phys object and edit it across) the borders either - the object you sat on was pushed back to the border.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request - or technically impossible.. in fact it sounds like the logical extension of the current ban tools.

Siggy.

When anyone uses a scripted object to attack another avatar (as I was today by a stupid little device, promptly abuse reporting it) that person is willfully trying to use aggression against another human being and should be dealt with harshly.

We train people how to treat us by sending signals about how we expect to be treated. If I rise to force with force, I escallate the use of force. If I allow myself to be baited, I will be again and again. It isn't my issue though. The issue of willfull aggression in game is one that should be between the Lindens and the Griefer.

When getting attacked by griefers (as I have been now and then since the end of last month) I simply report the matter to the Lindens, and thus far they've been quite responsive. Instead of escallating my security, buying mob protection, or bugging my clients (as has been suggested to me by many folks in game) I did the opposite: De-escallated security. I will rely on diplomacy and the administrative powers of the Lindens to deal with griefers. Why sink to the level of the griefers? If we all throw pies, we all have pie on our faces.

What we need is an llOnPlotIgnoreUser() command, which takes a griefer's key as argument.

This would make the griefer and all his objects disappear entirely from the eyes of anyone inside the plot, even if he's outside the plot.

And this would be trivial to implement too --- it just needs all objects within the renderer to retain their ownership info, so that they can be culled out of the rendering.

Instant end to all griefing by objects.

This issue has essentially been bobbled by LL since the beta.

They simply forbid you to defend yourself against griefing other than by employing the hopelessly inadequate-for-defense land tools. You have to just sit there and take it. I have sent a tell to a Linden, and the response was, "I'm just a code monkey".

Then wtf are you doing with the name Liason above your head? Liasons are supposed to be helpful. Telling somebody that is being actively griefed, "file a report there's nothing I can do I'm just a code monkey", is NOT helpful. Only thing I can think is, LL requires X number of Liasons in world at any given time, so will take the janitor, give him a toon stamped with Liason, and say, "I'm going to happy hour. Stand here for 2 hours please. But do nothing."

LL's position is that the griefed suffer until they get around to dealing with it, and that, as we all know, is frequently not timely at all.

My land. You grief, I'll blow you three sims away. You come back, it'll be 10. Go ahead ban me, because if this is what I have to deal with in SL for $125 a month, I'd rather not play.

It is a disgrace that this user was banned. Somebody punches me in the mouth, I'm supposed to just politely ask them to stop. What am I, Jesus Christ?

Hence my call for an llOnPlotIgnoreUser() command in LSL to make the griefer and all his objects disappear entirely from the eyes of anyone inside the plot, even if he's outside the plot.

If you want timeliness, don't look to LL support peeps (or any other humans) to solve a problem that is easy to overcome with some simple coding.

It is a simple solution.. Ban the people who made the Bombs, hell ban anyone who owns a gun.. If these weapons are allowed to be uploaded into the game they should be allowed to be used, in the game.. If the Lindens dont want this kind of stuff going on then stop it from being allowed into the game..

Nuff Said

It is this stuff that makes me glad im Canadian

Unfortunately, while I appreciate simplicity, this cannot be the solution for several reasons. One of them is that Lindens in fact admire good gunsmithing! Background to establish this can be found in several promos, including the front page of secondlife.com, which features Francis Chung's gun under the Create tab. Another instance would have to be SL's very own join page! Now let me talk about Francis for a second: her gun is one of the most popular models available in SL. Called the Seburo, it is used by oddly few griefers because of the premium price tag (L$1500), so not anyone with a trial account can pick it up. Furthermore, it's NOTRANSFER, so it couldn't be passed as an illicit weapon from one hand to another. It stays with the original owner.

I own a Seburo. I fire it a lot. I am obedient with the CS and TOS though. I think the Seburo is very cool to look at and makes for great photoshoots. In fact, there was recently a large contest organized inworld which was covered by New World Notes here:

http://secondlife.blogs.com/nwn/2005/04/the_irresistabl.html

So, it's not guns that Lindens don't want, it's griefing and related behaviors that are unwelcome here, as the Community Standards lay out. Furthermore, the analog of a gun tends to psychologically limit people's minds. I've been asked to put away my guns (including other fine models in my collection including the Colt .45 by Hiro Pendragon and Renee Marshall's XX in clubs -- understandable enough, given past history of what has happened in those clubs. But if I walked in with a cuddly bear in my hand, even if it was scripted to fire in a devastating way, chances are NO ONE would protest unless 1) they were against the sickeningly cute or 2) I started firing my beargun.

Also problematic, as an extension of that, is the question: what defines a gun? What about gunblades, or throwing knives? Throwing stars? Throwing bars? Of gold? Chocolate? You can see how it gets humorous but that being said, there are many owners of virtual firearms in SL who use them to "be cool". Not to push others.

Therein lies the irony of bang-bang in the gridverse.

I agree, Torley.

Banning "guns" can't achieve the desired effect, which is to stop griefing.

Nor can bringing in the Linden police, as that's far too slow, and your event has probably been ruined by the time they turn up. And it offers too much opportunity for pleas of innocence. And it places the onus on the people who are griefed to prove that they were griefed and that party X was responsible.

It's all so messy, and so ineffective.

<sigh> .... llOnPlotIgnoreUser().

Thanks for making me aware of the Cory Linden statement, Huns. I would adore that. Less opportunities for lag griefing. yay!

(tho some asshats have figured out how to use such physical items as fish to make lag so guess what? no more fish in my underwater garden: a waste of several thousand L.) Griefers: don't they make life fun? for 12 year olds i mean?

Damn talk about thread necromancy. O.o

Last update before Kris posted was in May. I can understand reviving a thread thats only a day or two old, but 8 months!? I didn't notice the date until like page 3 as I read through.

Anyways remember the Freeze, Eject, and Ban options in the pie menu. Of course this only works on the land you own or grouped to so if it occurs on someone else's property the only thing you can do is hope there is a nearby prim you can sit on real quick or wear a non-agressive personal defence system (or at the very least the agressiveness turned off).

I myself had a few run ins with some griefers as many have. One in perticular I felt a need to intervine because he was assalting my friends during our event. So I put on my shield and warned him if he attacked me he would be lauched into the next sim. So he started placing "mines" around me like they would actually do anything against my Wrath Shield and started going after my friends again. Enough was enough and I launched him 500m up as a warning shot. Thats when the threats of Abuse Reports from him started, boo hoo someone fought back and ended his rain of terror. Needless to say he abuse reported me, but apparently his 1 AR against me couldn't hold up to the 10 that were against him from all the witnesses who backed me up (some mensioned what I did and everyone included chat logs) and myself. I expected to be banned for my actions, but I wasn't. Not even a warning. Most likely a stroke of luck on my part, but it does give me a little comfort that justice occasionly prevails in SL. The griefer got banned for a good 2 weeks for event distruption.