Griefing Allowed to Continue

Except there is a clear ruling on shooting people, and not, to my knowledge, anything that categorically states that using the teleport agent home function is against the ToS.

Keep twisting though. Like so many things, anything can be fit to 'win' your argument for you if you bend it enough

God love ya, Magnum, you actually have a really interesting point that shows the ridiculousness of allowing "security scripts" that can bounce someone. It is the same thing, conceptually. You want to keep someone away to prevent griefing, so you bounce them into the next sim or back home (the stupidest option in SL, which has no place on the main grid OR any legitimate use), so you have a "security script", which the Lindens have contorted in every possible way to allow, sadly. At the same time, pushing someone, knocking them into another sim from your land with a "gun" is griefing. That is quite the double standard there.

The solution to all of this is better land tools that restrict what can happen on the land. While I understand why they suspended Blake, it is unfortunate, since they do so little to assist with griefers at all. Combined with the double standard of "security scripts", it just makes it all the harder to deal with griefing - our hands our tied, we are just supposed to grin and bear it and file abuse reports. Try giving us real tools instead.

Honestly, Kris, he has a really interesting point. Think about it - security scripts can be used to push someone off of your land, or teleport them home. How is using a gun on your own land to remove people any different? Same functions, different form, double standard.

Just letting you know hun I disabled my "Get totaly freaking stupified Pissed" about Player run government button a few weeks back.

But Oscar Meyer misses u..

Shadow

And Cris I was thinking the very same thing when I started reading all this...Ironic isnt it.

Shadow

Or the land ban tools then, since as the Lindens have acknowledged, setting a ban on a private island doesnt stop people getting there, it pushes them to the edge and usually forces a relog.

I'm all for better tools. Really I am. Then lots of us wouldnt have to resort to all these things that piss everyone else off!

I guess we could argue about which tools and using which LSL functions are griefing and which arent under what conditions all day long, because no two people are going to agree the same things depending on what they use to fit their own needs. But I have neither the time or the inclination. It's far too wide a discussion.

Instead I'll just refer you back to my original point about this one issue, which was basically that shooting back at a griefer is gonna get you suspended if someone reports you! Blake knew that. We all know that.

Again, whether it's right or wrong given the alternatives in any given circumstance is up for debate, but the fact is, that's the way it is, and we've had all this before and nothing has changed. If change is what you want, then people are going to have to come together and decide, together, what they want and present it to LL as a feature suggestion thats clear cut and grounded in logic enough to get to the top of the list.

Can you really see that happening? I can't.

So far the feature suggestions voting tool is mainly populated with a lot of self serving poorly thought out lone ranger wants, rather than any solid proposals for the really useful stuff we all seem to agree we want but all seem to argue about endlessly

this is total crap this has been going on for a year and still the linden do nothing about this. this will be why sl will never reach 1 million users because there is no justice and lindens have yet to stop the greifing. and it not like its evolving greifers most of it is still the same crap


people dont pay to be harrased in this game and if the people who follow the rule cant have any justice OR AT LEAST DEFEND them self they will quit because it a one sided thing if greifer will get banned for a few days then take a seprate account they own and do it again if this isnt addressed it wont matter if a game is better or not you just wont have any customers

Having been banned for stopping someone doing the exact same thing Blake has my sympathy at least.

As for 'security' scripts the bottom line is this....if we had the ability to actually STOP these nefarious people in the first place then security scripts wouldnt be needed,the land ban is worthless and everyone knows it.

Case in point - just over an hour ago I received a phone call at home from someone in my club in Second Life. There was a player by the name of Nora Belvadere in my club neg rating everyone and then asking for money to remove the negs.

They reported her to a Linden who said that he would e-mail the office, BIG HELP.

So I log on, ban her and load her name into my security orbs.So she then sits just OFF my land and carries on where she left off.

So now I've extended the range of my orbs off my land to stop her - and I can be banned for this - but to be blunt with you dear readers I'm so past caring its untrue.

It's not my job to deal with these fking morons and yet I'm getting calls at home to do so and THATS the point where something is badly wrong with the system.

Wow neg rating extortion .. thats a really low thing to do.

I sure hope that person is banned.

I agree with this statement 100%. There is plenty of resident debate regarding the use of security scripts. Methinks there is quite a bit of internal debate amongst the Lindens as well - hence their frequent inaction on the subject.

Assuming most folks agree that better land tools to prevent grief is the answer to making security scripts a dinosaur - a feature suggestion thats clear cut and grounded in logic enough to get to the top of the list is critical.

I already posted Prop 244 on 4-18. It currently has one vote. Possibly someone could submit a better-worded proposal folks would actually vote for.

At Corey's town hall, I posed the following question:



From that response from Corey - I would venture to guess that we won't even be *talking* about serious changes to the land tools until 1.8 or 2.0. If folks want this issue made a higher priority - it needs to make it near the top of the vote page.

Unfortunately, "Try before buy" appears to be much more important to the voting community than grief-preventing land tools.

I ll admit i did not read all the posts here just scanned by quickly but I would like to respond.

I like to hear A linden Responce to this.

I believe that LL Needs to give land owners a way to kick offenders off land built in to the system. where Land owners need only type in the name and the party gets kicked and or banned.

it is too hard to click on some one and you don't always get the menu up with what you want on it.

the only recourse is to do just what happened here. That is a TOS violation. This would solve the whole problem with privet systems as well. too bad this happened.

On a side note we as users and land owners could compile a Black List of names and Ban in a unified defence against known offenders. think of all th land owned by ashee(sp? sorry)chung and other big land holders banning. that would really be a pain to a greefer to have happen.

Somene is grieving, someone grieves the griever. Both get banned.

The Lindens took action. The correct action.

Case closed.

<cynicism>
SL has made an awful lot of changes in the last year and a half, has grown in area by a factor of 10, has had enormous population growth, steadily diversifying products and services, even got chat bubbles.

But griefing events and the LL "oh come on, he only disrupted 60 people's game in three sims strictly for his enjoyment, we must respond with a... stern warning" stance hasn't changed an iota in all this time. I'd like to think this is like hockey where players are encouraged to beat on each other because it makes good theatre, but I just cannot fathom how this leniency helps LL at all.

I ain't holding my breath on this topic; sooner will be the day that ATI cards work flawlessly
</cynicism>

I just want to state that I have seen four post, in both these threads about what happened last night, that are alts. of Blake proclaiming he not quilt of anything.

As a matter of fact clubs already do this,we have a group called S.L.A.M and you bomb/grief/shoot up one place then everyone gets your name.

Ejecting an unwelcome "guest" from your own property should never be considered griefing. Ever, no exceptions at all.

If LL have a problem with ejecting an attacker when not on your own property but with the consent of the property owner, then they should implement a consent mechanism, so that property owners can give technically-aware defenders the right to eject attackers on their behalf, without incurring the wrath of a myopic blanket ban policy.

Even better though would be a mechanism to make access to land by a player and by his objects totally blockable by the owner of the land. The worst an attacker could then do would be to plaster the outside of the plot with annoyances, but it might be possible to make even the attacker's objects external to the plot be invisible within with a little more work.

Pure technology can address this kind of griefing, but it would need some dev attention.

Then it must be a good idea whose time has come!




Hardly. All those good nourishing people who make scripts can keep them down to some defined minimum. Like, say, 300. Or 500. Whatever begins to seriously lag the sim and affect performance. While counting the number of scripts, there could also be weighting for type. Some scripts are worse than others. Let's look at them. Let's not worship all scripts. Let's realize that some -- bounce scripts, scripts that do a lot of listening for pepole on line, etc. -- are lagging the sim. Nobody wants lag. Lag should be something you have to pay for.

One solution is to make more expensive, or more controlled, lag-free sims, which are the planned communities. That puts the onus on the person fleeing the scripters.

Most, if all griefing becomes possible -- becomes enabled -- by scripting. Scripting is not an absolute good. In fact, scripting is often an absolute evil when it appears in the form of something like a bounce script.

Going after the griefer in this case might have been pointless and not really stopped an attack but at least it felt good. I honestly don't see how someone can be banned for self-defense, but it's because the Lindens can't get off the scripto-centric view of the world that you and some others have. Scripts are not absolute goods. Indeed, if they ban for the use of them, then they share that belief.




No, you could work something like the first 500 are free or whatever makes sense.

Look, you pay per prim. You pay tier per square meter of pixel land, and the right to put a prim on it

You pay handsomely sometimes. Let's say you are sitting on a $10/meter prime New Continent gorgeous waterfront. You just pay let's say $40 in tier. Meanwhile, some fucktard on a 512 a few squares over has a bounce script, particles, lights, weapons...and stuff...alll over...going nuts...including on land for sale nearby that has scripts turned on....and he rocks your sim down to 37 FPS. You're crawling around like a fucking fly. He has totally ruined your game. Your $40 is in the toilet. He's having fun on his $512 first land 512. People on 4 sims around are lagged. Usually it takes a little more than a 512 to lag 4 other sims but I've seen people on a mere 2048 with clubs, weapons, bouncers, particles blah blah completely drag their own and 2 adjacent sims to a halt.

Why do they get to do that and not pay? They don't.

I put this question into the Town Hall the other day. And Corey Linden seemed a bit surprised

Let me suggest that the anger you feel about my suggestion is directly proportionate to the entitelement you think you have to hog my sim's CPU and scripted object space. I'm here to tell you, no, you can't do that. If you lecture me now about the "good scripters" who don't lag sims, I can say, sure, been there, done that. Seen them. Got the t-shirt. But most of the time the people lagging sims where I and others attempt to live and work are doing it because they have an utter sense of entitlement and impunity about the usage of scarce resources.

You're not going to be able to get them to change, and "good scripters" really have no influence over "bad scripters" precisely because *all* share a profound sense of entitlement. It's time to end that hubris. People want to live in this world. They want it to be nice. They don't want some stupid guns and vehicles and particls in their face. I'm tired of walking around on my island and having some idiot make some gob of green goo following me around on my shoulder, then rain bullets on my head making me sim bounce then knock me with some flying dick. Enough already.

The answer to this, says one thoughtful scripter, is to AR the guy. OK. But that goes nowhere, or just to a 3-day ban. We need a more persistent state for our game play.

The Lindens aren't going to ever think about taking care of this problem unless you can make it worth their while. They don't really see this as an issue because until very recently, they didn't really try to work in this world. Now some of them who do maybe get it a little more, and may seek a balance, but I'm all for hurrying this process along by asking that they charge for scripts like they charge for prims.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Cory Linden has already said that in the future, you'll get a slice of script execution resources that scales with the amount of land you have in the sim you are in. There will also be some set aside for visitors, so that vehicles and jetpacks and so forth will continue to work.

When does the future come? And if he is putting a slice of script executoin resource scalable with size of land -- a purchasable commodity -- then Cory IS going to charge for it! Thank you, Cory! That means land is going to get more expensive, tekkies are going to hate land dealers even more, and when they find out Cory has made land more expensive by putting a slice of script execution resource to go with the land, they'll be even more furious.

How will you distinguish between visitors with vehicles and griefers with weapons? You'll have to go through elaborate land tools, toggling everybody in and out.

Thank god Cory knows what he's doing instead of listening to this:



We're getting mono, not punishment for scripters.

Could somebody answer a newbie type question? If there was an attack and Blake wanted to shoot back couldn't the land owner change the land to unsafe? Then Blake could shoot and not get reported?

do you know how manny practice greifing others this isnt a thing oh a guy got rowdythere is a large number of people that think its ok to piss people offits a load of crap to say grifers are right this game dosent support anarchy nor is the community is going to tolerate these actions. if a man was smoking a cigar in a movie theaterand is wearing a giant hat and laughing loudlywould you say oh its ok he just expressing him self or would you tell him to stop.

you wont find manny that tolerates crap

I agree with you winter. I myself am head of security in club dreaming and have a script that can bounce ppl if they cause trouble in the club. I wont bounce anyone unless they ignore my warnings and i warn them atleast 3 times. But if they still dont listen i bann them from the club. I only had to do it once b4, but i will not doubt to do it again. I dont like the idea of the lindens to turm my other cheek to them and let them hit me again, cause that really SUCKS.

Now if any Linden reads this. REVOKE THE BAN ON BLAKE NOW PLZ!!!!!!!!!!

THE PROBLEM - You can ban Billy Blaster from your land,you can put him into your security orbs but Billy Blaster can sit his arse on the very edge of your land firing into it to his hearts content and there is not a dam thing you can do about it.

Now WHAT is there about this problem some of you are failing to grasp?

My solution is that I've extended the range of my orbs to outside the boundries of my land,only if your banned from my land for griefing people on my land will the orbs target you if you come close enough to shoot/bomb.

Ramdom passers by are perfectly safe.

Yes I can have my account suspended for doing this but wtf else am I supposed to do? Through my association with SLAM I know there are people in Second Life who get their jollies from blowing the crap out of social events/gatherings so just like Blake I'm going to risk a suspension to prevent these sad lonely morons from getting off.

Why? Well its because nobody else is going to stop them are they.

Obviously Cory, a game dev, knows a hell of a lot more than me, a nothing player.

What I'm doing is proposing the most obvious solution. Let people discuss it and find fault with it. Let them attack it viciously with their superior technical knowledge. I'm just here to keep putting it out as a solution I can see and understand as one that will help control griefing.

After all, it was savvy older players who stopped terraforming griefing by hobbling terraforming tools forever and anon and making them only plus four minus four, making some of the new Linden steep land really impossible to work with and do anything with other than look at. I guess that's the idea -- forced creation of nature preserves LOL.

So sure, savvy superior older players with technical knowledge are always right, and never see the unintended consequences of their zealotry.

I didn't say charge PER SCRIPT like we charge PER TEXTURE, though perhaps that system could be explored.

I simply said CHARGE. Once the individual tips over say, 300 scripts, the meter starts running. After all, he's hobbling an entire sim on which other *adults* are trying to live. Let daddy make him pay for his toys.

I'm so glad you are finally beginning to understand. Well said!

Candy Bijoux
Kiss Me




Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 119 Quote:
Originally Posted by Reitsuki Kojima





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I cannot argue with your stance given the current state of enforcement against griefers. I will note that the *targeted* SLAM based boot script is probably more effective than hauling out retalitory weapons because it denies the griefer jollies and - as was incisively mentioned above - although it has exactly the same effect as a well aimed Seburo, they seem to less "offensive" to the Linden ToS enforcement corps.

I'll spare you my musings on how vigilante justice moderates into a closer approximation to real justice over time, but it is seeming to. *runs off to inquire about SLAM*