huh? free stuff is bad for sl?

Let free-stuff ring.

You can't pressure merchants - that would have negative results.

Even if I did agree with the protectionistic, trade-guild suggestions you propose (which I don't) just how well do you think "suggestions" would be enforced by the only people capable of enforcement given their track record with the hard-and-fast rules?

While I am on the subject, regardless of whether a product is sold or given in SL, there is no difference in Keynesian wealth produced. Transferring L$ from player to player has absolutely no effect on the "GDP" of Second Life. The wealth is produced by the creation of the first instance of an object and since the marginal cost of production in SL is zero, any subsequest distribution is a zero-sum transfer of play money (ignoring collateral "industries" such as your favored billboard market, for example).

I put the suggested negative connotations in red... They fit pretty well.

Good points, all!

Well... Most of them, anyway...

As a scriptor, builder, and texturer I think I can give some insight into my point of view here. Take it as you like.

Free Scripts:

I do a lot of scripting, and enjoy working on it as I can. I many cases, I base the beginnings of my script on other people's work. The pet follow script, the security door... All made by someone else...

When I make an upgraded version of such a script, I tend to feel I should upload it for free in order to give something back to the community. I take the basic upgraded script and upload it, while using my more specialized script in my sellable object.


Free builds:

Complete builds that are given away are differant than scripts, since while people are not interested in buying a lone script, many buy scripted objects.

I have items I give away. One would be the MayPole I made for the mayday festival. Why not sell it?

Because MayDay is once a year. How many are going to BUY one after Mayday?

Do I have the pole where people can edit it? Nope. Will I do so at a later date? Perhaps.

But don't tell me I'm being ungracious because I won't people tinker with it. I didn't have to share at all.


Textures:

Tricky issue. To be useful, I have to leave all rights open on these. I'm selling them, but the next owner COULD possibly give them away. I would never know, so what's the harm?

I don't know. THere is no answer to this. I would more than likly be dissapointed more than angry, since I did leave the door open for it. But...

Eh... I refuse to get owrked up over that possibility...


Finally:

When I create things from scratch, I often use them for a while before giving them away. Is that greedy or generous? Your opinions don't matter, since it's still MY decision. If I chose to give it away, you can think or say anything you like, but it does not matter...

My ball, my rules.

Let the discussion continue!

I see many people persist in their hall of mirrors making a caricature of my posts, exaggerating and misrepresenting them, and claiming they are all "hostile and aggressive" but that's merely because they serve as a mirror for *their own* hostile, aggressive and condescending stance which they themselves bring to these forums with their point of view, which, as blaze has often pointed out, only induces its equal and opposite reaction in all but the most Zen-like readers.

So think about that Chip, and others, and think about your odd notion that my posts have somehow "changed" or I have "moderated my views". In fact, I post what I always post. Perhaps I side-step over your personal insults more than I used to, oe now report each and every personal insult and each and every RL disclosure when I didn't before, but that doesn't mean my views changed. Instead, I suggest that what happened is a powerful force for change on these forums: more equal and balanced enforcement of the TOS on all who participate in the forums. I think it may do wonders. It may do way more wonders than Aimee's idea to make a screened, elitist "NPR Radio" section of the forum with things like Maxx's idea of what will amount to flash-mob ratings of posts induced to force out the lowly rated.



This continues to be a silly caricature of the "anti-freebie" view. What the "anti-freebie" view says (at least my version of it, I'm not aware of any other such "extreme" views) is NOT that there should be no freebies, that there are TOO MANY, that people offering them are often PRETENTIOUS in thinking they serve the public good because they don't have the items on mod and are merely using them for loss-leaders to their store, and they SAP INITIATIVE, which is demonstrable everywhere.

There are simply TOO many and the solutions for helping newbies make a real economy are:

1. Reducing the number of freebies and putting in more very low-cost items that helps create a market of very low-cost newbie stuff. Even $1 or $5 helps to get a market indicator of whether people want the stuff, and it also helps people more than a money tree which is just a disguised dwell-magnet.
2. Putting items on mod and allowing people to make new modifications to practice their skills AND consider even checking off "resell" for them to be reselling them.
3. Encouraging yard-sale economies by clicking off re-sale on objects
4. Making opportunities for new content creators to enter the market of sales to other newbies by ending the hugely-high-priced monopolies at telehubs and stores (this is one area I'm working on).
5. Encouraging newbies to sell to each other with fairs, contests, yard sales, etc. etc.

Of course, there have to be freebies in a game like this. Loads of them. You note that the freebies are often a lot of worthless stuff, ugly clothes, ugly prefabs, ugly whatever, that somebody can't sell. But newbies are happy to have them -- for a time. People pride themselves on putting out "good" freebie junk, but if you take an impartial eye to it, free of the sycophantic climate one can find in SL, you see much of it it isn't all that.

I noticed that when a newbie mistakenly put his "look at my new build!" sort of newbie enthusiastic post by accident in the "building" section instead of "gallery" (it's not immediately obvious a post like that belongs in gallery or elsewhere), there was at least one oldbie ready to jump down his throat, set him straight, and chill him from further participation. One "crime" he committed was setting a low price on his newbie house build and "advertising it" by mentioning it. He was set straight on how he had better move to products with that "ad," and there was also an undertow of "how dare you put prices on things, especially as a newbie, especially as an incompetent." That kind of attitude is what puts people off this game.

That's what I mean by the climate that kills the newbie economy. Newbies would naturally make and sell things to each other, if no one else, and help keep each other afloat with newbie solidarity. But all that is ruined by the smothering embrace of oldbies who usher them into their apprenticing world of guilds within minutes of their arrival or "set them straight". It's no different than any MMORPG where you are forced to join a guild when you enter, whether "Wizard" or "Soldier" or whatever.

I remember my first few days when in fact Ingrid, friend to newbs now giving out freebies, ushered me into the store of someone she admired immediately, where my task was to spend $200 out of the $500 in my newbie stash on some expensive clothes. She described the store as one of the least expensive while still looking good. I didn't have a problem with this at all, because I felt that if someone spent time making something, I should pay for it, and save my stipends and try to win contests, etc. to make the money. I understood that ending my newbie striped clothing status was an urgent priority, and that I needed to pay for that privilege if I wasn't good at working "appearance mode." One of the first things I did, however, was to make something in appearance mode and first gave it away for free, then sold it. Of course, there were those on hand to wither me with their harsh judgement of my newbie efforts, but I persisted and still sell some of those items today.

Cindy raises the erstwhile question of how to make money, "what about the poor people with no talent". They're not going to make money by endlessly collecting freebies. Like everybody else, I endlessly went around collecting freebies and endlessly clicking on every tree and shrub hoping it would be on "take copy". Today, I have a useless, cluttery inventory of such junk that can't be used.

How many people actually use or wear all their free stuff? I think perhaps a few gadgets or scripts of the basic "notecard giver" type are about it. Most of it is junk.

Could we please get a grip on this? When you get something for free -- well, you got what you paid for.

I disagree. Surprise surprise! In your post that elicited that comment from me you would make one of your standard claims and then follow it up with something like "it doesn't mean there's a conspiracy" or "it doesn't mean they actually control the game" etc. If that's not trying to back away from your long history of paranoid declarative assertions, I don't know what is. As for the rest of your post, too long to read, sorry.

Well I suppose if we are to disagree on something, Prokofy, it may as well be this. At least people may give up on the notion that I am your alt. Although In truth we may be talking about apples and oranges.

I think your position rests upon the supposition that people must particiapte in the market economy. In point of fact, as I have said earlier, I remain indifferent to the market economy. I have made a number of custom home builds for people, and I think I charged for one of them. Maybe my efforts were pedestrian, I have no clue, but I gave people something of value for nothing. I do intend to do more custom builds in the future, and I will likely not charge a penny for them. I don't especially see that I have a responsibility to the other custom home builders not to dilute or devalue the market. I am sure that builders like Juro, or Lordfly are not biting their nails in worry that I am stealing comissions.

I think a lot of this goes towards why people play SL. For me, Sl is purely entertainment. I expect to spend money on the game, and I do. I have no interest in amassing a vast personal linden fortune, and reasonable speaking I can afford to by what ever I want in terms of objects. Thus I see no reason to charge anyone for what I make or produce. I make it because it amuses me to do so, and share it because I like that others enjoy what I make. Of course I don't assert that I am alturistic either, I am just not motivated by lindens received.

Other people make and sell stuff to cover their tier and purchase the fun things in SL. Still others know thier position on the leader board and seek to establish themselves firmly in the SL upperclass. While I say more power to these people, I don't see why I am obligated to participate in the market economy to facilitate their success. I mean I am not going to define my price structure (free or otherwise) by what other people need to sustain their SL experience.

Now I too have noticed some of the hazing and I think that is dangerous. I read a post somewhere where someone was talking about "I paid my dues and learned, so should they." I am not sure any of us has the right to define another's SL expereince. After all the truth of SL is that you make of it what you put into it. However I don't think all free items are proliferated as loss leaders by the oldbies to take advantage of the newbies. In Sl there are no production costs (aparet from the creators time) and no real manufacturing and distribution costs. In general there are no raw matierials consumed (well arguable data space-but that to me is between the player and LL and not between players), so I think a large number of free items are to be expected.

woot i have forums access (but not email or sl access).

anything to add to thess lists? i don't think i saw anything, but i could have missed it.

pro free stuff:
1) raises the bar on creativity
2) players create free stuff to build community
3) can use free stuff to learn how to build
4) free stuff makes sl friendlier
5) free stuff is not like there
6) free stuff is against greed
7) free stuff lets people know there are generous people in sl
free stuff gives new residents something to consider before spending money

pro-con free stuff:
1) philosophical differences
2) linden free stuff
3) player's effort put into free stuff
4) free stuff is a loss leader
5) free stuff is part of the sl market system

con free stuff:
1) free stuff is bad for business
2) free stuff clutters inventory
3) free stuff as loss leader is getting loyal newbies
4) free stuff can be 'dumping' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping
5) free stuff can set the bar too high for entry into the market

Chip, um, I have no need to "back away from your long history of paranoid declarative assertions" because I didn't make them. They're all pretty precisely worded, and pretty long, and pretty accessible, so as to easily ascertain that you're making an exaggerated representation of them. You don't read them, by your own admission. So from time to time it's necessary to come in and wave away the smoke and say "it doesn't mean there's a conspiracy." But that's because it never was said to be a conspiracy, and you know, it everyone knows it, and what you don't like about it is merely that it exposes some bad behavior and attitudes.

Jake, I think you've summed up the issue. Some want to participate in the market economy, and some don't. Some are wealthy, educated, upper-class tekkies who just want to goof around in sandboxes and form little nichelets with their friends. Others are mass-culture poor people who don't want a market economy because they need to be subsidized. Sometimes people combine being "poor" with being rich as content-creators, i.e. poor with a basic account and no land like the famous Aimee. Others goof around and make stuff and then all of a sudden, bang, make a Tringo for RL and clean up in RL terms.
At this stage of SL, it probably makes sense to have all these flowers bloom.

But what happens is that to keep it alive, to have it function, to have it hook up with the rest of the world, with RL, with it's dollars and values (it's the Lindens who introduced that hook-up with their land market and with the access to GOM), you have to realize that people can and do make it a market economy. So then the question is can these different streams coincide?

Well, I certaintly don't go around whining and gnashing my teeth because people supply free housing to newbies. Let them. Let newbies get their feet wet that way. I know that often newbies leave those arrangements for various reasons and then come and take my cheaper rentals where they can have more freedoms. Whatever. Or they go to somebody else's cheaper rentals where they still pay something but have more freedoms. Not everything in life that is free is valued, even by those steaming along in the goof-around, non-market economy.

Where it becomes a problem is when a) people in the sandbox economy begin to insist that the entire world adapt to their utopianist vision of rich people just goofing around making stuff and denigrating those who seek something else and b) when people in the mass culture economy have their hands out to make everyone subsidize them endlessly.

You can't make the game grow with those 2 attitudes, and those 2 attitudes, you'll have to agree, have prevailed. That's why I try to experiment wiht having a different attitude. I try to charge at least $25/week to a newbie vendor at at least $50 for 50 prims to a newbie renting because I think it's worth teaching people the value of money and beginning to understand that things do cost SOMEBODY money here.

You yourself have pointed out that it is your philanthropy, your willingness to buy land and pay out tier, that enables some of the goof-offs to come and just chill on your space. I don't knock that at all because I, too, am a philanthropist who creates some of the spaces in this game where people just chill and do nothing or goof around and build stuff.

I think it's possible for all of these things to coincide, but you do have to think about their consequences. And one thing I for one am going to fight is any effort to shut down a market economy among players. I think it's the death of the game, if that entrepreneurial spirit is crushed.

hahahaha, if you say so Prok Shall I go digging for quotes? How about asserting that SLU harvests IP addresses for purposes of digging up useful information so "Cristiano and his cronies can maintain their stranglehold on the game"? I'd call that a paranoid declarative assertion of conspiracy. But don't let reality get in your way. Carry on.

I think on your final point we are in accord. While I don't want my participation in the market economy to be mandated, I certainly would throw it up as a barrier to someone else enterig the market. As I said I am somewhat laissez faire in this: I 'm not going to hinder others participation in the market, but I don't want to forced into it either.

I think new users should be encouraged to make stuff, and experiement with SL tools, its fun and interesting. But I don't think they should be forced to, its entirely possible to play slingo, hang out at a club and have kinky av sex and enjoy the hell out of SL. I guess even though I choose not to charge people for stuf I make, I don't think its wrong for soeone to charge for what they make.

Where has this initiative sapping been demonstrated? Everywhere is a big place - I see it nowhere.

Wow, isn't it a great thing for the world that we have someone who's so selflessly dedicated to the community that he's taking it upon himself to TEACH US THE VALUE OF MONEY and plug his rental rates? Thanks, Dad! I swear I'll get a job and a haircut real soon, but can I have ten bucks to go to the movies?

Cheer up, yo? When I take a break from peddling my wares for L$ and building hourly for USD, and I go roaming the grid handing out stuff for free on a whim, I promise I'll never give you anything!

OK.

I would hate to be responsible for sapping the initiative of new residents. In that light..

Prokofy... I will accept $100L for the picnic table you asked me for, and I gave to you for free. I will accept $50L for each copy of that table that you made, since it was Mod/Copy.

Hi, Jonquille, I'll send you $100 in world, and let's see..I have I believe 5-7 copies of it out, I'll check, so I'll pay you for each one! Glad to! When I asked you for it originally, I would have been glad to pay for it!



I'm going to leave this one for now because it just leads to forum deterioration but there are ample reasons to treat it not as "paranoia" but as a report lol. Those who know, know.




Yeah, I think it's important to learn the value of money in a game where the Lindens charge money for the land on their market, but send out confusing signals by subsidizing you at the rate of $500/week, give you money for ratings, encourage wikki-isms, and give you your first land for only $512, a fraction of their land auction price. Oh, well, it's a metaverse at the early stages and one can expect a lot of confused signals and chaos.

Yes, please don't give me anything free, and if you'd like to send a bill for anything free now in my possession or on my land, please do so.

this thread used to be about freestuff and if it's good or bad for sl.

now freestuff and whatever it is now about.

Thanks, Prokofy. I'll keep an eye out for the sacred cash.

It still is in a roundabout way. In a place as open ended and freeform as SL there is no right or wrong way to create, to sell, to give, or to be. Anyone who claims otherwise is a bit too enamored with their own way of approaching things. Two years into the life of SL free stuff has in no way prevented an economic market from developing and flourishing. I can't imagine that any single mindset will ever be "in control" and I think that's as it should be.

There's nothing confusing about this, Prok, unless you try to hammer Second Life into the tiny peghole of your limited and unrealistic beliefs about the nature of this site. Although some people like to make it look like RL and complain when others won't roleplay it, SL is not a simulation of RL. It's Web hosting with really nifty content creation tools. Oh noes! Some people put free content on the Intarweb! I'm so confused!!!!1!



I don't change my terms and charge retroactively, and I will not do business with you again. I don't care about the stuff you already have. If you can't stand the stink of your own hypocrisy, just delete the stuff.

It's so good to see the forum is back to it's usual self. "Usual" since last fall that is.

I wish I had the power to read minds too. Then I could be pretentious while calling others pretentious. OH JOY!

It's like one of those Russian dolls that have another doll inside - and another, and another, and another...

An interesting discussion that looks like it's in danger of spiraling down. If there's nothing additional to add, I'll close it.

one last summary before the thread is flushed down the toilet

can a "free market" economy (ie one with no regulation) do anything about this stuff? or would you need to regulate the market to do anything about this?