huh? free stuff is bad for sl?
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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05-26-2005 20:17
From: Ellie Edo From: Ellie Edo Well, it looks like in-world video is faltering badly, doesnt it ?. You are right, of course. Even if the video market has suffered stagnation because of a superb freebie (and noone can prove it) there is no solution involving rules. I suppose a $5 minimum selling price might do something, but I couldnt really approve. The only thing that just might have some effect is if the community of creators established a sort of consensus that the giving away items above a certain level of sophistication is not regarded as helpful to the beginner creators who need a foot on the ladder. A sort of creators etiquette for the rich not to use their money to make the first steps of the poor beginners much harder. But there would always be non-conformers who had no need of money, and might enjoy cutting the legs off the newbie creators who desperately need some money from sales. Or maybe if it was agreed freebie content should all be mod/copy/transfer, with free use for commercial/non commercial purposes of any sort, so the newbie creator can take bits and chop them about into something of his own to sell, without being regarded as a criminal (as with the famous television/video script). Otherwise, I agree, there is no solution that doesnt bring more bad than good. Since in fact there is no real hard proof that there actually is a problem, I think I'll just shut up. bwuh? ellie is talk to ellie?
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
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05-26-2005 20:19
From: Ellie Edo The only thing that just might have some effect is if the community of creators established a sort of consensus that the giving away items above a certain level of sophistication is not regarded as helpful to the beginner creators who need a foot on the ladder. A sort of creators etiquette for the rich not to use their money to make the first steps of the poor beginners much harder.
But there would always be non-conformers who had no need of money, and might enjoy cutting the legs off the newbie creators who desperately need some money from sales.
Or maybe if it was agreed freebie content should all be mod/copy/transfer, with free use for commercial/non commercial purposes of any sort, so the newbie creator can take bits and chop them about into something of his own to sell, without being regarded as a criminal (as with the famous television/video script). huh? people should be required to sell things instead of giving them away?
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
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05-26-2005 20:28
From: Ellie Edo
Since in fact there is no real hard proof that there actually is a problem, I think I'll just shut up.
Very true - I've seen a lot of talk about how it's bad - but never with any concrete examples -- maybe a few conjectures and some hypotheticals. The reverse - that it can actually enable new people, teach, and help them get started HAS been backed up with actual concrete in world cases several times. Is there even a problem past the 'thought experiement' -- does anyone actually have an actual case of it destroying a biz or straight up stopping someone getting into a market? As for me - everything I make is usually as good as I can get it at that time -- commercial, give away, freebie, is decided later. For me there will never be a 'good enough... it's only afreebie' - and I'l never let anyone else decide how, when, or if anything I make will be distributed. Siggy.
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Thili Playfair
Registered User
Join date: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,417
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05-26-2005 20:32
Thanks to all the people out there that have given out free scripts, textures and just about everything i could rip appart and study!, i wouldnt know a thing about how to make particles or anything without you guys  I love sharing, building is my best timekiller i have, and remember if it wasnt for people who tweak other scripts im guessing we'd still be using a outdated, laggier version of them. |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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05-26-2005 21:59
From: Ellie Edo The only thing that just might have some effect is if the community of creators established a sort of consensus that the giving away items above a certain level of sophistication is not regarded as helpful to the beginner creators who need a foot on the ladder. A sort of creators etiquette for the rich not to use their money to make the first steps of the poor beginners much harder. i've been trying to figure out how to add this to the pro con list, but i'm trying to figure out what this is about. so high quality free stuff creates a barrier to new residents trying to start businesses? if this is the case... how does high quality stuff being sold lower that barrier? since the market space is still occupied, and now the space is occupied by people who have an interest in competiting in that space. doesn't the mere presence of quality items create a barrier regardless of whether or not they are free?
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Monsoon Black
knows nothing
Join date: 6 Apr 2005
Posts: 21
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05-26-2005 22:43
I was actually about to start a thread myself but thought that it was too similar to this one so I just want to throw a question out there... What if there was no L$ in SL? Would people still make or do anything? Are the things we do in SL just the means to making some imaginary profit, or do people do things for the fun of doing them?* *this is VERY hypothetical, obviously LL would stand to lose US$ if there was no L$, so this question is more from a sociological standpoint. **and no, I ain't no hippy! I certainly hope that if everything were free in SL that people would still make quality, creative, items for the sake of displaying their talents, making friends, and making the SL experience fun for everybody. But maybe that is too naive. This is just a game right? |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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05-26-2005 22:45
From: Monsoon Black I was actually about to start a thread myself but thought that it was too similar to this one so I just want to throw a question out there... What if there was no L$ in SL? Would people still make or do anything? Are the things we do in SL just the means to making some imaginary profit, or do people do things for the fun of doing them?* *this is VERY hypothetical, obviously LL would stand to lose US$ if there was no L$, so this question is more from a sociological standpoint. **and no, I ain't no hippy! I certainly hope that if everything were free in SL that people would still make quality, creative, items for the sake of displaying their talents, making friends, and making the SL experience fun for everybody. But maybe that is too naive. hard hypothetical. some people need motivation. From: someone This is just a game right? no exactly. it's a platform. people play in it.
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Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
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05-26-2005 23:11
Re, "free stuff = loss leaders."
"Missing the boat" would be more apropos, but I'll leave readers to figure this one out for themselves.
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Ellie Edo
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05-27-2005 00:09
From: StoneSelf Karuna so high quality free stuff creates a barrier to new residents trying to start businesses?....if this is the case... how does high quality stuff being sold lower that barrier?....doesn't the mere presence of quality items create a barrier regardless of whether or not they are free? StoneSelf : I think it would work like this. If the high quality video tv had sold for a bit more than newbies would want to pay, say $200, then a less competent apprentice scripter could have come along with something not so good, but functional, and sold quite a lot for say $60. But since the high quality one is free, and making something better may be currently beyond the less experienced scripter ( or would take them far too long), they may just give up. Do something else. This also might mean that the freebie creator is left sitting in the market almost alone. The only person with a product that can be enhanced to move upward might be her. But she may have no motivation to bother. Unlike the beginners, she doesn't need money. She bathes in the glow of her own generosity, and everything stagnates. Please note that I am not saying that any of this is actually true, just that it might be, and be part of the explanation for why this video thing has fallen so flat. All I am saying is that if there IS a situation where this has happened, this might be it. We really can't know what would have resulted though if the market had worked normally, and rather more, non-free, products had appeared, aimed at different bits of the market place. Would it all now be more dynamic ? Can't tell. |
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Ellie Edo
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05-27-2005 00:16
From: Siggy Romulus does anyone actually have an actual case of it destroying a biz or straight up stopping someone getting into a market? errmm.... Siggy, we were just now discussing the way the in-world video thing had fallen so flat. The fact is that I know of 4 content creators who were going to enter the market, but withdrew when they saw the superb script and tv that was being circulated as a freebie, mod, but with a firm injunction that no part of the script was to be incorporated in anything sold for money. Scuppered the plans of these four people, at least. Only you can decide if it counts as an "actual case" of damaging a biz, but I definitely know it stopped some ppl getting into the market. There was no point if making something better would have been too difficult or long winded, and at the end of the day could only have sold for a below normal figure because of the zero "base price". When the bar is set too high, you go do something else. |
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 00:27
From: Ellie Edo Only you can decide if it counts as an "actual case" of damaging a biz that might hurt biz, but does that hurt sl?
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 00:32
From: Ellie Edo StoneSelf : I think it would work like this. If the high quality video tv had sold for a bit more than newbies would want to pay, say $200, then a less competent apprentice scripter could have come along with something not so good, but functional, and sold quite a lot for say $60. But since the high quality one is free, and making something better may be currently beyond the less experienced scripter ( or would take them far too long), they may just give up. Do something else. that's just a little weird to me. but i just sell novelty items, so i don't have high demand. and couldn't $200 tv maker make a $60 model that's not as fancy? i mean first life tv makers (and makers of other things - like cars) do that all the time. some go so far as to create a different name brand. wouldn't $200 maker do that if $60 tvs were cutting into their market share?
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 00:33
From: Ellie Edo There was no point if making something better would have been too difficult or long winded, and at the end of the day could only have sold for a below normal figure because of the zero "base price". given that cogs (cost of goods) is zero in sl... what is "normal figure" based on?
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AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 00:35
pro free stuff: 1) raises the bar on creativity 2) players create free stuff to build community 3) can use free stuff to learn how to build 4) free stuff makes sl friendlier 5) free stuff is not like there 6) free stuff is against greed 7) free stuff lets people know there are generous people in sl  free stuff gives new residents something to consider before spending money pro-con free stuff: 1) philosophical differences 2) linden free stuff 3) player's effort put into free stuff 4) free stuff is a loss leader 5) free stuff is part of the sl market system con free stuff: 1) free stuff is bad for business 2) free stuff clutters inventory 3) free stuff as loss leader is getting loyal newbies 4) free stuff can be 'dumping' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping5) free stuff can set the bar too high for entry into the marketadditions are italics for this version.
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 00:47
From: StoneSelf Karuna con free stuff: 1) free stuff is bad for business 3) free stuff as loss leader is getting loyal newbies 4) free stuff can be 'dumping' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping5) free stuff can set the bar too high for entry into the market can a "free market" economy (ie one with no regulation) do anything about this stuff? or would you need to regulate the market to do anything about this?
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Random Unsung
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05-27-2005 00:52
From: someone not all free things are loss leaders.
it isn't all about money. If they aren't loss leaders to a store, then they are objects designed to enhance the reputation of the distributor and make him appear as a selfless altruistic benevolent being. In other words, it can often be hogwash, especially if he didn't put the item on mod.
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 00:54
From: Random Unsung If they aren't loss leaders to a store, then they are objects designed to enhance the reputation of the distributor and make him appear as a selfless altruistic benevolent being.
In other words, it can often be hogwash, especially if he didn't put the item on mod. uh... the maker could just be nice?
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
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05-27-2005 00:59
From: StoneSelf Karuna uh... the maker could just be nice? nuh-uh. no one could possibly conceivably be doing anything ever without an ulterior motive! it just doesn't bare thinking about  |
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
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05-27-2005 01:02
From: someone Or another "problem" would be one very wealthy SL-er who has a monopoly on a critical section of SL goods, and pays people to create freebies to undermine adjacent market segments... but there is no one who has that market power in SL. Barriers to entry are just too low right now. Actually, it does work that way in some sectors, seems to me, and while they don't literally pay people to create freebies, what some older craftsmen do is formally or informally apprentice younger craftsmen coming in, and they fall into line pricing their goods way below the level of their masters so as not to threaten him and keep in his/her good graces. This process doesn't happen in any kind of rigid, lock-step way but happens seemingly "naturally" and "with consent" but that is how indeed it works in some sectors. The free video really did kill the other videos, most of which have much better content to access and some features that are better, like remote controls. And yes, that hurts SL because yes, there can't be a fascistic state with highly controlled and stratified corporatist sectors, one skin sector with one or two leading skin maters, one animations sector with one or two leading animation makers, one eyewar sector with one or two leading eyewar makers, etc. SL should and will become bigger than that, and is already growing away from that. The worst thing that freebies do is kill newbie initiative. There could be a much more thriving newbie market of newbies selling to each other when they first come in but this is all killed by the smothering embrace by all these helpers and cabinheads and Linden fast-tracking. There can always been a basic deck of free stuff to start with, but there is far too much stuff given away. The oldbies don't realize they harm themselves by this practice as well.
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Random Unsung
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05-27-2005 01:03
From: someone uh... the maker could just be nice? uh...no? Often the maker is just trying to get a newb glued to his store to get dwell?
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
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05-27-2005 01:03
From: StoneSelf Karuna uh... the maker could just be nice? *Place hands on hips* Oh come now, we all know that most people who would give away something with out loss leader intent must be up to no good! Get with the program, "generous" people rarely act for any other reason than self-interest.
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StoneSelf Karuna
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05-27-2005 01:04
From: Random Unsung Actually, it does work that way in some sectors, seems to me, and while they don't literally pay people to create freebies, what some older craftsmen do is formally or informally apprentice younger craftsmen coming in, and they fall into line pricing their goods way below the level of their masters so as not to threaten him and keep in his/her good graces. This process doesn't happen in any kind of rigid, lock-step way but happens seemingly "naturally" and "with consent" but that is how indeed it works in some sectors.
The free video really did kill the other videos, most of which have much better content to access and some features that are better, like remote controls. And yes, that hurts SL because yes, there can't be a fascistic state with highly controlled and stratified corporatist sectors, one skin sector with one or two leading skin maters, one animations sector with one or two leading animation makers, one eyewar sector with one or two leading eyewar makers, etc.
SL should and will become bigger than that, and is already growing away from that.
The worst thing that freebies do is kill newbie initiative. There could be a much more thriving newbie market of newbies selling to each other when they first come in but this is all killed by the smothering embrace by all these helpers and cabinheads and Linden fast-tracking.
There can always been a basic deck of free stuff to start with, but there is far too much stuff given away. The oldbies don't realize they harm themselves by this practice as well. i just noticed something. is ellie edo one of your alts? is that why ellie responded to herself in the second person?
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AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
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05-27-2005 01:05
rut-roh
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Lynn Lippmann
Toe Jammer
Join date: 12 Jun 2003
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05-27-2005 02:43
From: StoneSelf Karuna i just noticed something. is ellie edo one of your alts? is that why ellie responded to herself in the second person? LOL "You people..." LOL Oh god, this is wonderful. ----------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala well I really do give up on you people. ... Sorry, but I just *had* to show you this link and quote (sorry but the thread is closed and I can't quote properly): Ellie Edo: "I sometimes think some of you people are simply incapable..." Found here: http://forums.secondlife.com/showth...5&page=15&pp=15Third post down. As we say in WoW: PWND! /endofhijinx
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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05-27-2005 03:20
Nep.. still can't agree on it.. I set up a bunch of free stuff while I was still pretty piss poor.. mainly because a lot of folks were Immign me for it. Put it in the GNU store - which has never generated more than 1 or 2 L$ in dwell... and when I eventually DID put out commercial items it was in a different location, and had no similarity to the stuff I did for GNU. And it was all mod -- did it effect my later commercial products? I don't think it did.. 99% of the time folks never associated the creator tag on items to any of my sales stuff. Did my personal reputation for standing behind everything I sell? Most certainly. Siggy.
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