huh? free stuff is bad for sl?

Pretty unlikely that it has anything to do with:

1. streaming video fights with SL for ingress bandwidth
   
2. streaming video crashes clients with relatively high frequency
   
3. people don't want to watch video in SL
   
4. the unencumbered videos available are few
   
5. hosting a video stream is expensive, multiplicatively so
   

Nah, probably was free TVs dumped on the market. We must protect domestic industries against foreign competiton! I bet a foreign government is subsidizing the industry. Up with creation tarrifs! Down with duty-free televisions! War is peace! A chicken in every pot! We will bury you! Our workers must have their standard of living supported! Look how well it worked for American steel and garments! I like exclamation marks!

To me, I don't think "hurt" is the appropriate word. I think though that in the future it will make businesses in SL have to re-think how to market to consumers and still make a profit. Maybe not in *this* version of SL, but in a future one.

Again though, I think of SL as the platform for the future internet. There are still *tons* of free things to be found on the Internet. And there are also businesses that are making money (granted profits from selling on the net are only recently starting to be seen). So I certainly agree there can be a way for both to co-exist. It just means businesses have to get more creative.

PS: I'm really enjoying this discussion as I think it is a very valid issue that will help shape the future of SL. I'm seriously hoping the thread doesn't get closed!

I think that both Random and I would have to agree that this suggestion is REALLY funny.
Except that alt hunting is banned under Forum TOS.

good point and probably worthy of a new thread. should sl businesses try to be like first life businesses? how will they need to adapt to be successful? is this analogous to how businesses adapted to the web? etc.

Alt hunting is banned???? Wha??? Next thing ya know, they will ban newbie hunting...

Sheesh..what is this world coming too!

Maybe they should try limiting the alt hunt, say no more than three per season.

Good questions! And yes, probably a whole other thread unto itself.

I think this says a lot more about you than it does about any of the freebie creators you're trying to malign.

I'm afraid there are only two ways to deal with this poster, Jonquille. Either put him on mute as some people post to say they have done.

Or else just accept for once and for all that he "maligns" just about everyone but himself. He seems unable to not. Just discount the fact that every post is phrased in this aggressive combative style, and appears designed to rouse the most placid of posters, by attributing completely specious and disreputable motives to them and anyone they support.

If you just take that as a given, and try never to respond to the provocation, it becomes less easy for the thread to get derailed, as they always do, by people objecting to the way they are being spoken to. Don't worry, we all see it. Silence is best taken not as acquiescence, but as maturity.

I used to mute. But am currently giving the second course of action a try. Does leave a nasty taste in my mouth, though. The problem is, sometimes he speaks sense, despite the offensive way he does it.

Anyone still think I might be his alt ????

And sometimes we maligned tekki-wikki creators are altruisitc and selfless human beings!
I mean I am building a parthenon for the benefit of all those who wish to worship Athena.
But anyone is free to come on my land and see it.

Not everything in SL is, or should be, tied inot the economy. Free stuff allows some users a modicum of enjoyment without having to outlay a lot of cash. If anything it keeps newer players from having to wear the same clothes everyone starts with.

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but for some of us, making money is not the object of SL. Some people like me will always be putting free stuff into the stream of commerce. I guess my take on this is that SL does not guarantee anyone a way to make money. One of the risks of commerce is that someone will come along and do it cheaper, or better, or both.

I certainly see no reason to creat some byzantine protectionist trade regularions to preserve the business climate. Now I don't think the business climate should be retarded byt regulations either. I am somewhat laissez faire in that regard. I do not oppose commerce, I just don't want to be forced to play in the stream.

I have him on mute in his other incarnation, but he's got too many alts to keep up with. Usually I skip right over his posts, but every now and then, you just have to ask, "Why do you keep crapping in the pool?"

One thing that is very helpful about free items is they "get you up to speed," possessions-wise. In RL we've had a lifetime to accumulate the stuff in our daily lives. But in SL, what a pain in the ass it would be to have to buy all your avatar creature comforts all at once. Isn't it nice that you can get a freebie starter home, some furniture, a few clothes, a couple a vehicles, without having to break the bank your first week in?

I agree with this completely, Jake. I personally feel that SL is so open ended that it supports many different goals and play styles. I enjoy the bunsiness side of things as a goal for directing my creative efforts (but not all of them). I realize that many people are simply here to socialize, to create, to express themselves, to be altruists, or whatever. If someone else's goals confilct with mine, like for example they give away a free product that I was thinking of building a business around, that's just the breaks. My goals are not more important than theirs. I think the notion that free items are bad stems from a point of view that one person's goals might be more important than someone else's and I don't think that's a healthy or supportable frame of mind for anyone in SL.

I also think that if you wish to enter commerce, then quality products wll provide your own market advantage. I mean just because someone can make something for free does not mean that it can't be improved on with better design, marketing or support.

I mean I might be able to get a sanyo for free, but i might also be willing to pay $1000 for the Bang and Olafsen. My classic example is the grimm and muse suit. I paide $1800 lindens for a suit. It is beautiful. In my opinion the best in SL. Yes I winced at paying that much, but I forked it over. Part of my purchasing equation was my god I have to own an $1800 suit. In otherwords a market can be gained by appealig to peoples sense of Elite.

I would rather have JZ televsion than a freebie. Partly because JZ is sort of a prewtige name, and partly because I know with JZ I'll get customer service when my dumb ass tries to hook it up. So commerce is not only defined by price.

Free things are bad, mmmm K. Since when?

Most of the debate in this thread has centered around some subtle assumptions that (in my opinion only) I'm not sure some folks are even aware of.

The assumption is that most everyone in SL is well established, or has easy access to enough cash to get themselves set up. The indirect assumption spinning off of that one is that the economy in SL is contingent ONLY on what stores sell to players or what services scripters/designers sell. "Freebies, who needs 'em"?

What you're missing is something I have witnessed at least 3 times this week, and experienced myself when I first joined.

In my case, the feeling of being completely overwhelmed and frustrated was tempered by a very helpful Live Helper who not only showed me how to open a container but GAVE me the clothes she was wearing absolutely free. At that exact moment, I went from a skeptical Sl candidate to feeling welcome and more sure than ever that I might sign up for a premium account.

The other 2 times involved friends of mine that I've convinced to try SL. One of them about 6 hours ago -- we went to the newbie shelter where there are boxes of FREE stuff and money sitting around for newbies to take, plus a host who was very helpful and friendly. The stuff my friend got for free wasn't any threat to the established merchants. It was simply not-newbie looking, and the advice the helper gave him was priceless. We then toured a few spots, tried to find a casino with a running money ball for him, pointed out freebie offers in stores and showed him what a money tree was.

By the time his first 6 hours in SL were over, he had no more doubts at all that he was going to join. He knows it takes $Lindens to have a house or nice clothes and I also told him of the ways one can go about making that money (he's a musician and is thinking in terms of creating musical content).

Now, I'm sure that with the help of a few friends he may have felt welcome anyway. But the point here is that the freebies he got and the encouragement he received from people he'd only just met were more important in convincing him to join the community than any fancy prims or animations -- or even the Star Wars trailer playing over at Chosen's Geek museum

Maybe that's a "loss leader" strategy, but that phrase strikes me as a bit cold, and misses the more human element of running a subscription business. His free clothing could probably be built in 5 minutes using nothing but the in-game tools. The maintenance of a newb shelter is probably more costly in terms of manhours and resources. And in the end, the Lindens get another subscriber, Second Life gets another regular contribution to maintain itself, the rest of us benefit in the long run and I'm sure my friend will one day be putting $L in the pockets of many merchants as he pursues his musical SL career.

But without that initial kickoff and the feeling of good will, would it still have happened? Isn't today's newbie potentially tomorrow's Chris or Aimee or Stoneself? Without new blood (newbies), how long do you think SL will actually last?

Cindy

Well stated, Cindy. (And welcome to SL)

I remember my first couple days here and debating what to do with my allowance. After buying a pair of jeans and a shirt, I was pretty much broke. If it hadn't been for all of the freebies and whatnot, I probably would have become bored very easily, as well as feeling that this was too much 'work' to have a good time.

Great post Cindy, my own first days in SL strongly echo your experience.

I think it is a big mistake for folks to assume that people give away free stuff to promote themselves entirely. I am sure for some small segment this is true, however, speaking for myself, and many others whom I have known for sometime now, I believe that the majority of freebie givers do so to augment the drive for new player retention (which includes teaching them the ropes), which is an ALL of our best interests. That, and/or out of simple kindness as way to help pull new folks out of the fog. Let's face it, SL has a steep learning curve, even if you don't desire to be a content creator.

Its often useful to explore an argument through a ridiculously extreme metaphor. At least it lets you see when there is nothing in an argument at all.

Imagine a major automobile manufacturer started giving unlimited numbers of its top product away for free (say Rolls-Royces or top model Cadillacs), with unlimited free fuel. Do you think that might discourage further development in the automotive industry ?

I think that tells us there must be some effect in SL.

Leaves two questions:
1. Is the effect in SL big enough and often enough to significantly reduce innovation ?
2. If it is big enough, is there anything we can do to reduce it without too much negative effect ?

In the metaphor, could we decide that only small uncomplicated cars can be free, so that there is enough market left to support other fancier cars and encourage some innovation ?

Maybe all it would need in SL would be for LL to issue some advice to creators such as the draft I offer below:

___________________________________________

"Suggested Draft Guidelines for Creators on the Setting of Product Prices:

In deciding on pricing, we would like to suggest that only fairly simple, basic and utility versions of a product should be distributed free, or at a "very low price". By that we mean a price substantially less than would be charged by a fairly new vendor trying to earn enough in-game to pay for his game costs. We appreciate that this injunction is necessarily vague, but would ask that vendors bear the following two objectives in mind:

1. To stimulate healthy numbers of creators competing in each marketplace, and driving forward product improvement, innovation and development.
2. To avoid discouraging potential new creators by setting the bar to participation in the market to be too high. It should be possible for such a person to craft products superior to the very-low-priced utility versions, and to start selling them, without requiring him to exhibit skills in excess of what he can fairly easily achieve within a month or so of beginning seriously to learn.

We do not intend at present to take action against anyone breaching these guidelines. We would however like to establish an understanding within the creator community that distributing complex or sophisticated items at a very low price may not always be an act of generosity, and that perhaps this community itself might like to discourage the practice amongst its members. Hopefully this may alone be enough to achieve the two objectives.

__________________________________________

What do you think ?
Worth a try? Irrelevant? Unnecessary? Ineffectual? Intrusive? Damaging?

This sounds awesome. Where can I get it? I'm going to jump into the script library right now to see if maybe it's in there!


Gydeon.

That's exactly where it is

I don't think I was implying the free stuff didn't have an impact in SL. I was saying two things in a number of posts: 1. not all people play SL to make money, so the economy is, for me and some others like me relatively insignificant; and 2. just becase someone does something for free does not mean the market is closed for other, better products.

Sure maybe someone is giving away free cadillacs wuith free gas. Be you dollars to donuts some people woutl still pay $90k for a porshe. Ultimately a posrche isn't a cadillac.

At the core of the argument it seems that there is an assumption that people are entitled to make money in SL. I disagree with that notion. If you can make money great, buit some people might give away the very thing you want to sell. So be it.

So nobody sees any value at all in my draft guidelines to creators ?

Ellie, I completely understand what you're saying. I even think your guidelines make sense. The problem, in my mind, is that the SL economy does not lend itself well to planning -- once you start pressuring merchants to only give away basic stuff (which many of them do, anyway) and not their more developed items, you've taken a step toward price fixing. Planned economies.

Yes, I know that's the extreme extension of the argument and not what you intended. But it's an outcome that must be considered.



Nolan, that's exactly it. It's hard to be both cooperative community members as well as capitalist competitors (this thread is a good example), but that's what has to happen. Profit is important to the SL economy, but so is attracting and retaining new members. For those of you who've forgotten, it can be pretty overwhelming out there.

Cindy

Well I am not sure you can force participation in a market economy. If people want to give stuff away for free you cannot force them not to.