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huh? free stuff is bad for sl?

blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 11:59
Chip, calling individuals as malcontents and minions could be construed as a lot of things, but everyone is trying to play nice here and all you're going to do is incite a bunch of flame wars.

How about just chilling out, for once.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
05-26-2005 12:05
You seem to be the one with the chip on your shoulder, Blaze. I reserve the right to render my opinion of ideas expressed and the manner in which they're expressed. You're welcome to do the same, as you are now. I just find it humorous since you're the one always complaining about off topic personal vendetta posts that have nothing to do with the thread subject. But hey, knock yourself out. Hypocrisy is entertaining.
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
05-26-2005 12:05
chip, blaze,

please don't hijack this thread.

thanks
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-26-2005 12:10
Jezus, man, PEACE.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
05-26-2005 12:10
From: StoneSelf Karuna
chip, blaze,

please don't hijack this thread.

thanks


but mom, he started it! :p
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
05-26-2005 12:12
From: Chip Midnight
but mom, he started it! :p

not in my kitchen^w thread!

now clean up your mess and say something intelligent about free stuff.

;)
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
05-26-2005 12:14
I think free stuff is great.

I spent the first week of my SL digging through all the free stuff in my inventory, (Both Linden and Resident created) modifying, texturing, stretching and torturing everything I was able to Mod to see how people had put this nifty stuff together. Without that free stuff for me to play with, I probably wouldn't have gained half the interest in building and creation that I did.

When I got some passable knowledge under my belt from tweaking all that free content, I created my own free content to give back some of what the community had given to me. The first time someone told me my little free prefabs had helped them learn to build and texture, it enforced to me that free stuff is good!

The freebies weren't created as a loss leader. They were offered in the GNU store, with all the other dollar items. Trust me, that place does not turn a profit. Quite the opposite. All the dollar sales and dwell combined didn't make up for the upload costs of 1 texture package.

SL, in my experience, isn't filled with the Snidely Whiplash villains that some like to claim. Most of us are just interested in making the grid a more interesting place to spend our free time, and are not twirling our mustaches scheming how to get another $100 out of some poor damsel by luring her into our evil clutches with some freebies.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
05-26-2005 12:19
I wanna go live with dad! Okay, okay... free stuff gives people something to do before they've decided whether or not to spend any money on SL. Without it there'd be fewer conversions from trial to actual accounts. Ergo, it's a very good thing there are so many generous people in SL. Happy now? *storms off to room*
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
05-26-2005 12:29
From: blaze Spinnaker
Free stuff, in some ways, can be used as a type of 'dumping'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping

Classically, dumping is a subset of what is known as predatory pricing. Dumping in this sense is the act of selling a product at a loss now in order to drive competitors out of business, with the goal of raising prices when they do in order to recoup the investment. It is illegal in the same way that many other anticompetitive behaviours are. However, in practice, it is enforced far less than other antitrust actions.

In international trade law however, dumping is defined as the act of a manufacturer in one country exporting its product to another country at an export price below the domestic price (normal value) in the manufacturer's own country.


Blaze has a valid point here, I can think of an example where this happened. Someone created a couple's dance bracelet which became extremely popular - it started the market for them. A competitor came along and duplicated the functionality of the item, and then gave it away for free in conjunction with selling dances. This killed the market for these devices to compete, and the sales dried up completely. Business is business, but I found the practice kind of sleazy myself.
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
05-26-2005 12:35
I pretty much agree with Blaze, Chip, and Cris. :p

I remember when I first started, how wonderful having new things was, and the fact that it was freely given to me made me not feel so noobie and left out. But honestly, it did not stop me wanting more and better. And when I couldn't find just want I wanted, it prompted me to start creating for myself.

At the same time, super high quality items being given away for free just does seem to stagger the economy. To me, free items should be teasers. A sample of what *could* be. If I was given all the best stuff free, what incentive would I have to buy or create something better?

I guess I certainly feel there is a line to be drawn *somewhere*. Not sure I'd be the best judge of where that line would be though. :D
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
05-26-2005 12:49
I have given away over 300 pairs of jeans...
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
05-26-2005 13:42
From: Siggy Romulus
I musta screwed up - all my free stuff is at the free stuff store....


don't worry siggy, i'm selling some at mine ;) :p



free stuff is good. we are nowhere near the level where it is a problem. Personally, I sell some things and give away some things. The stuff I pub domain either wasn't hard enough to make so that it had defensible barriers, doesn't have a big enough market that I care about trying to sell it, or is used for teaching purposes.

cris, i have to disagree with you on the sleazy bit. Gilette sells razors cheap to sell razor blades... would i be sad that this put a razor manufacturer out of business? not really. One has to adapt... did the dance bracelet maker adapt? (partner with an animations maker? improve the product?) or just close up shop?

i tend to be "let market forces reign" until you start hitting serious anti-trust levels... but we are not anywhere near that in SL
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
05-26-2005 13:54
From: Forseti Svarog
free stuff is good. we are nowhere near the level where it is a problem.
at what levels would it be a problem?
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
05-26-2005 14:05
Well, it looks like in-world video is faltering badly, doesnt it ?

Totally against my expectations.
But I now know of about four creators who dropped their plans to contribute, when the totally free, high featured, nice looking final-product self-contained TV came out. If I know four, how many more were there ?

I might just possibly have badly damaged the market. Its impossible to know, but I suspect it.
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
updated list
05-26-2005 14:10
pro free stuff:
1) raises the bar on creativity
2) players create free stuff to build community
3) can use free stuff to learn how to build
4) free stuff makes sl friendlier
5) free stuff is not like there
6) free stuff is against greed
7) free stuff lets people know there are generous people in sl
8) free stuff gives new residents something to consider before spending money

pro-con free stuff:
1) philosophical differences
2) linden free stuff
3) player's effort put into free stuff
4) free stuff is a loss leader
5) free stuff is part of the sl market system

con free stuff:
1) free stuff is bad for business
2) free stuff clutters inventory
3) free stuff as loss leader is getting loyal newbies
4) free stuff can be 'dumping' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
05-26-2005 14:19
I can certainly see the issue here. But other than venting one's frustration, I really can't think of ANY sort of fair solution. Make freebees illegal? Manditory market value price enforced for any item you transfer to another person? These don't sound like rules people would be happy to live under.

Maybe some kind of Better Business Bureau should exist in to expose unsavory business practices (dumping, for example). But this certainly wouldn't stop those people that don't have businesses and simply give out freebee items for fun.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
05-26-2005 14:22
From: Aimee Weber
I can certainly see the issue here. But other than venting one's frustration, I really can't think of ANY sort of fair solution. Make freebees illegal? Manditory market value price enforced for any item you transfer to another person? These don't sound like rules people would be happy with, though I can't think of any alternatives.

Maybe some kind of Better Business Bueau should exist in to expose unsavory business practices (dumping, for example). But this certainly wouldn't stop those people that don't have businesses and simply give out freebee items for fun.

This is what frustrates me as well, about the anti-freebie set. There is only condemnation and "the sky is falling", no solutions offered, and as you pointed out Aimee, it's impossible to police, even if we wanted to... it's all SO subjective.
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
05-26-2005 14:31
So lets see, free stuff is free.

Free stuff ruins it for people who want to make expensive stuff cause they cannot compete.

So free stuff is bad?

So you force people to charge a market price for thier goods, even if they do not want to? How? a Tarriff on making things?

I make houses, so high prim, some low prim, and one in progress Insane Prim Parthenon.

At first I thought I would charged for my houses. I made a little money. But people would rather pay for the prefabs and slap on thier 512's. Which is fine, some of the prefabs are nice. But I like building. If a project interests me I will do it. Free. I have a job IRL and have no real interest in making money in SL (after all I can just go to the GOM and buy it). So I have no real reason to charge. People see my houses, or recently my parthenon, they ask how much I charge to build. I say nothing, and then I get a project that amuses and diverts me. If I had the time or inclination to expand my t-shirt line, I would, and hell I'd let them go for nothing too.

I play SL because it amuses me to do so. As a result of my amusement, I generate free stuff for people I like, and some I don't know. I see no reason to start charging, even should I get a bug up my butt to dust off my poser and go into the animation business. I suppose I am the most dangerous kind of malcontent tekkiwikkiati. I don't oppose other people's capitalism as long as they don't oppose my randomly making free stuff.
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
05-26-2005 14:35
From: Jake Reitveld
a Tarriff on making things.

Are you suggesting bringing back the prim tax?
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
05-26-2005 16:01
sorry that should read "a Tarrif on making things?"

I meant it as a question, not a statement. Sorry for any confusion.
Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
05-26-2005 16:45
I'm a scripter, a good number of my scripts I give away and post to the script library. And I have a few reasons.
  1. Provide a script that is of better quality then the commercially available scripts. It really irks me when I buy something and it's buggy.
  2. Undermine competitors who overcharge. Some scripters charge thousands of L$ per hour of work on a script, most scripts will never turn a profit.
  3. I write many scripts for the forums to help people, either correct a bug or show a better/different way of achieving a goal.
  4. I enjoy scripting.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
05-26-2005 17:54
From: StoneSelf Karuna
at what levels would it be a problem?


sorry for the delay, stone

a "problem" would be if we had large numbers of extremely talented texturers, builders, and coders who had absolutely nothing better to do than spend 80 hours a week developing goods that they could give away for free. Yes, then the market would be flooded with quality goods, no one else would be able to make money, and the masses would be satisfied that they were getting all the goodies and entertainment they wanted.

Or another "problem" would be one very wealthy SL-er who has a monopoly on a critical section of SL goods, and pays people to create freebies to undermine adjacent market segments... but there is no one who has that market power in SL. Barriers to entry are just too low right now.

Those scenarios are unrealistic.

it's all moot. I agree with aimee. You can argue about loss leaders being predatory or not -- depends on which end of the strategy you are on I suppose. But it doesn't matter. We aren't going to limit people's freedom to build what they want and do with it what they want -- whether it be charge obscene amounts of money, charge fair prices, or charge nothing at all.
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
05-26-2005 18:09
Old story - much repeated - worth repeating again.

After I'd been here a little while - some friends and I decided to have a 'hot tub party' -- not an event .. just a bunch of us deciding that sitting in a jaccuzzi and shooting the breeze would be fun.

We hunted and hunted and hunted for a decent hottub - we bought them from all over - anywhere from 200 to 600 lindens a pop, and money (due to taxes) wasn't available very easily (no GOM either).

The result was when we got back together we had a collection of boxes - some textured.. I think one had a texture loop on the non alpha'd linked water (no mod naturally).. There was only ONE out of seven that was any good, and we couldn't find who was selling that one (MagicTub I think it was called). We as a group had spent a tidy sum for not very much value.... caveat emptor - thats the way it goes.

There was no impetus for anyone to make anything more than a hollow box and flog it off to the masses.

In the end I made my own tub - it was my first scripted object - to do all the things I thought a tub should... I gave it to my friends, eventually updated it and put it out for free.

Now when you buy a hottub there are is a base of features that folks look for and expect - and that folks include as a given.

Whether or not the free tub influenced that - who knows - but at the least it gave people something to play with and improve upon , and allowed several people I know of personally to make derivatives and get a foothold in their own SL business..

Siggy.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
05-26-2005 18:32
Siggy speaks the truth. I asked him if I could sell this tub built off his script and he said to go ahead.
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
05-26-2005 19:41
From: Ellie Edo
Well, it looks like in-world video is faltering badly, doesnt it ?.


You are right, of course. Even if the video market has suffered stagnation because of a superb freebie (and noone can prove it) there is no solution involving rules. I suppose a $5 minimum selling price might do something, but I couldnt really approve.

The only thing that just might have some effect is if the community of creators established a sort of consensus that the giving away items above a certain level of sophistication is not regarded as helpful to the beginner creators who need a foot on the ladder. A sort of creators etiquette for the rich not to use their money to make the first steps of the poor beginners much harder.

But there would always be non-conformers who had no need of money, and might enjoy cutting the legs off the newbie creators who desperately need some money from sales.

Or maybe if it was agreed freebie content should all be mod/copy/transfer, with free use for commercial/non commercial purposes of any sort, so the newbie creator can take bits and chop them about into something of his own to sell, without being regarded as a criminal (as with the famous television/video script).

Otherwise, I agree, there is no solution that doesnt bring more bad than good.

Since in fact there is no real hard proof that there actually is a problem, I think I'll just shut up.
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