The Fanboi Playbook: what are your best strategies to counter?

Probably in both places, yes......or at least muttered under one's breathe consistently. So see....they really aren't much different over there.

Never make the first or last out at 3rd Base.

Could you please enlighten us how we should do so outside of going to their offices and seeking an appointment?

Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Well, I was going to suggest that, as we have proper text formatting over there, we could just write STFU in huge red letters

but ...

... is probably better advice.

been there, tried that, got nowhere

Perhaps today is a good day to die.

This forum change is the best thing that happened to humanity since our landing on Mars.

Both. A lot of the folks on the blogs are SLX'ers because their forum got closed/absorbed first.

While I've been an SLX/XStreet merchant for a long time, I hated the SLX forums for discussion since it really was a "fanboi/grl" club. Plus the moderation on those forums was always a bit heavy handed and played favorites toward an FIC for merchants. That is a self-selecting process where people like me simply left and didn't post there. It was really nothing new to me when they started posting in the blogrums and I saw the same sorts of results.

Also, a lot of the commerce peeps think that the more they post, the more they get exposure for their shops. (TIME FOR A DINNER PARTY! COOK IT IN YOUR KITCHEN..... ) So they end up with an unnatural "wall of words" that can kill rational discussions quickly AND they cover all the different sections and not just those related to Commerce.

The thing that drives me crazy about the blogrums is how badly they use screen real estate, the slowness, the lack of obvious and granular sections, the sucky editor, the PM system, the all-or-nothing email thread watching and the icky threading system. But other than that, they're wonderful.

Good point.

That word doesn't have as negative connotations as do some other words that might have been used, instead. Seriously, I rejected some far more incendiary options before deciding on 'fanboi'.

The idea being conveyed is 'people who have an automatic response (to defend or try to please some powerful person or business or other entity), rather than a response based on thought about the particulars at hand.'

(Where is Genghis Khan when we need him?)

We'll all have a different view of the Essence of the arguments relating to the closure of the Forums.

For me it's this:

I believe that for any company that sells something to customers, listening to those customers is important. Really listening--not mere lip service. For such communications to be of value to the company, the customers must feel free to state what they really believe (within the bounds of civility). The customers must not fear that stating their minds will be met with scoldings, suspensions, or bans.

and

I believe that for Second Life to prosper, customers of SL must be able to communicate freely with each other, and not just in Chat between green dots that happen to be online at the same time. For genuine communication, there must be a venue for asynchronous posting---a message board or forum.

This communication is vitally important to retention of new registrants, because a) there is so steep a learning curve in SL that if people don't have a FUNCTIONAL venue for asking questions, they will be more likely to leave; and b) people become passionate customers when they feel they have a 'home' in which to communicate with like-minded individuals.

Though not every passionate SLer is a big spender, virtually all big spenders are passionate about SL.

Therefore it is counterproductive for a company to say 'we can't see actual dollars coming to us from the operation of a functional forum in which people can speak their minds, therefore we will offer only a less-functional forum in which we can more tightly control what is posted.'




These points, I believe, are roughly what is in contention between the 'believe every LL decision is good and right' people and the 'want to see LL prosper and want to suggest that some decisions may work against prosperity' people.

Fwiw, when dropping in on a couple of Office Hours this week (quite rare for me), I had the impression (just a feeling) that a higher-than-usual percentage of folks there were trying to use the meeting to network with LL employees. There was a lot of irrelevant trotting out of bits of RL knowledge, skills and expertise. It seemed to me that they had some dim hope of eventually being asked to help out with ... something, website or marketing or network management, who knows. In today's market, I have a lot of empathy for folks scraping the bottom of the barrel for work ... if some of the smarm on SLA or the commerce forums is done by folks in pursuit of favor that may lead to a contract as a Gold Provider, I can't begrudge them a little brown-nosing.

Both Lindens involved seemed to me to be phoning it in, for the most part. I've always felt that Office Hours were done while catching up on email etc; this week they seemed more focused than usual on trying to carry out the various initiatives, notably AU.

They have too many simultaneous projects in the air, which is not unusual for LL. But this time they seemed to know they were stretched too thin. *That's* unusual.
.

I think many people think that any criticism of Teh Lab means you want LL to fail. I think many of those people don't have real world private industry BUSINESS experience. I've made many impassioned arguments in the blogrums from a customer and business perspective about stupid things that LL is doing or not doing or "gathering feedback" on only to get jumped on by "persons of excessive fan persuasion."

I can't see anyplace I'm advocating either a 'chip on the shoulder' attitude or a '2 divides' approach.

What I AM advocating is that when we encounter a poorly-thought-out argument, we should point out what we believe to be the argument's flaws.

In other words, this is about the arguments or claims being made---not about the individuals making them.

Along the same lines:




Please note, again, that I am NOT advocating labeling anyone, at any time, in any venue.

I think you're right. I'm not sure there's any way of breaking through that mindset, since we don't have a way of imparting business experience; all we can really do is hope that readers with SOME business experience/knowledge of the world/common sense will take note that the suggestions we are making ARE for the purpose of helping LL to prosper and grow.

Funny, the other day I just watched "Capricorn One" for the first time.

Man, that's a bad movie.

Profound statement. And I'm sure you put a lot of thought into what you posted. Prety words, one sided facts (based entirely on your observations). Logical process of presentation..........and wind up with this quoted paragraph.

You and your flock are the only ones who care. Everyone else does not. That's total crap. What I gather from your post (in conjunction with practically ever other post by you that I"ve read) is that you believe yourself to be some extremely intelligent, caring person who's beliefs are the only true way to success or prosperity. You know (simply because you are you) what is correct, fair, legal, criminal, acceptable, unacceptable (some of those adjectives are garnered from previous readings of yours). Anyone who does not agree is either not paying attention, ignorant of the facts, in cahoots with the "higher ups", wannabes, fanbois or stupid.

Since I know you do this on purpose knowing full well what you're likely to get in the way of responses I call you a troll..............an eloquent troll but a troll non the less. If you truly cared about this new move to a different system of resident communication you would use what will be available to learn if, in fact, it is such a bad move. You will not learn what it can or cannot do until it's been in place long enough to evolve into it's new form.........I do not believe the present form of the blogarums is the form it will be in 6 months (I'm going to wait and see.......even though, according to you, I don't care). what I believe your biggest fear is that you'll find you cannot have your "flock" to stand on and savor your every well reasoned thought........not that you will loose a form of communication to anyone. You know that it's likely you (and everyone else) will be monitored...........you might have to back up some of those eloquent words with facts about LL silencing you.

Why don't you put all that thought and eloquence into action and contact Linden Lab directly? Use any means or method you like (within the lines available). Present your argument to them directly in your well thought out ways. Sit back and listen before jumping in with rebuttals (there is an art to listening you know). Then study what you heard........process it, ask for clarifications. Offer up new ideas after hearing their responses.......take your time. Do it right. Get an understanding of what LL is doing or plans to do..........you might be surprised. You might find out that they do have a plan.......it might not by one you like but that they are not willy nilly runing around being stupid. Then, and only then, will you prove to me that you care.........because I don't think you care about anything but your ideas. You don't want to know anyone elses.

BTW, I don't believe you will have any success even if you did do as a suggested. Two reasons. First, you've damaged any objective credibility you might have had by your post history here. And second, that is beyond your ability to do............you are not an honest person.


The people who get things done are the people who do not rant. They do not buck the wind. The do use what is available to them to make change happen.......and that begins with sincere, honest, quiet, polite communication. Something you don't know a thing about.

Most of the bad arguments continuing to be made in this thread and elsewhere (including on the Blog) appear to be variations on #2. In a sense, all "YOU SHOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THIS!" arguments fall under the category of #2, since the basic reason given for the directive to stop talking is that the very act of wanting to discuss any suggestions for LL or criticism of LL decisions, marks the discusser as being a Bad or Sick person.


However, a new variation of bad argument has arisen (or at least it's new to me), and that is:

4) 'Message boards/forums/blogs Are Not the Correct Venue for Discussing Suggestions to LL or Criticisms of LL Decisions----the ONLY Correct Way To Discuss Such Things is to "Take it Directly To The Lindens".

Of course the user of #4 doesn't specify how this is to be accomplished--how and where and why Lindens are available for Taking Things To. There may be vague generalizations about Using Proper Channels (which are never spelled out) or even accusations (a la 'you should know by know what the proper channels are!')

And also of course, the user never responds to reasonable requests that these Proper Channels be specified, or to equally reasonable requests for explanations of how "Directly Contacting The Lindens" would work or be effective.


All this is in service of the claim that LL Decisions Should Never Be Discussed on the Internet. But---and this is what makes this a bad argument---no 'why' is ever explained. It comes down as a directive that is not to be questioned (which is NOT a logical argument.)

Good grief, Ponsonby. Who determined that any of these arguments were "bad arguments?" And what even makes it an "argument?" They are just opinions. People express them. Maybe they aren't your opinion, but it doesn't make them bad or illogical.

Some peoples' opinions do not even fall clearly into one of these supposed categories. Some peoples' opinions are a combination of all of them. User #1, user #2, etc......it just doesn't work that way. We can't be put into categories.

I have a knack of shutting down threads when my feathers get ruffled. And this fanboi thing really ruffled my feathers this time. Perhaps it's the thread starter (I think it's quite clear that I do care for him in any way) or maybe it's that core group that hang on his evey word........I don't know. But, because this particular thread topic crawled up my spine so severely I wanted to say one more thing before I leave it to you guys to piss and moan over. I've been trying to find a justification for anyone taking the position that Mr Low has taken that the fact that some (perhaps many) simply don't buy this "true believer" vs "fanboi" attitude. I think I came up with an answer after trying to find what the hell Mr Low is taking about.

I did a little reading back threads to see just how useful this particular forum is (RA). Guess what...........there's a ton of useful, helpful, informative information relating to SL and it's problems, quirks, abilities, limitations, strengths, potential, pipe dreams.......and everything in between. I looked at some of the other sub forums.........same thing. A vast wealth of information. Totally priceless. However, I noticed a lack of participation in those threads (all those helpful and informative threads) of so many of those in Mr Low's choir. Yes, there were a few posts by members of this group after someone else has delivered the actual help or information.......and almost everytime off topic or sarcastic belittling of LL or someone associated with LL.

A few threads that were presented or opened with a genuine desire or need for help or information where such information was delivered:

/327/2d/363633/1.html
/327/99/363556/1.html
/327/d6/138370/1.html
/109/8d/363501/1.html
/109/2f/363023/1.html
/109/b3/360276/1.html
/8/3f/362927/1.html
/111/be/363627/1.html
/111/7a/362193/1.html
/164/b1/355148/1.html
/263/4c/361755/1.html

In every case the person got good information by caring fellow residents. Some contain the lingering offtopic remarks (which are not always necessarily a bad thing) but the thread and posts were exactly what the forums promised and delivered. A valuable resource that must be preserved.

Then I looked at some threads that are being lumped into the above threads as also being a valuable resource that must be preserved (according to Mr Low and tribe). I cannot find any useful information in any of those threads pretaining to bettering the lives of fellow residents.......in no way does any of the topics or responses help anyone, in any way, to use, gain knowledge, or otherwise make the Second Life community better. All of these threads occur right here in RA. All of these threads offer no help to anyone for anything SL. All of those threads have major participation by the Mr Low types...........LL is bad, they are stupid, they arr inept, the won't listen, they hate their base types. These are a few:

/327/2c/363706/1.html
/327/85/252954/1.html
/327/f1/363547/1.html
/327/14/363267/1.html
/327/09/363280/1.html
/327/30/363410/1.html
/327/12/362882/1.html
/327/28/360981/1.html
/327/79/361388/1.html
/327/64/361408/1.html

If you care to look at my sampling you might see what I've noticed too. You might even dig deeper to see how long it has been going on........I think you'll find it'a been happening since day one. Here's where I really come up sideways with this mindset demonstrated by Mr Low. The use of "caring" that is certainly demonstrated here in the RA forum as fall back on his argument that he (or we) are being "silenced" in some sort of way........because he believes he's being helpful to others with problems related to SL. That is not true.......he is not helpful to residents with problems with SL. He's only interested in LL.........I don't think he cares one bit about SL (obsession with LL, yes.......but not SL). That, in my eyes, is lying. I can't find where Mr Low has helped any newbie with something simple like "how do I get this box off my hand" (that used be how do I get this box off my head..........but LL changed the default attach point some time ago). He is, however, rather quick to jump into a discussion of anything Linden Lab...........he oftens starts threads on such subjects (sometimes obliquely, sometimes blatantly). No where have I seen where this caring man has cared enough to help someone needing help with the platform (without injecting his destain for the owners).

Everyone complains about their bosses in RL............ I do. There are a few who are chronic about it. Some of those chronic complainers even become "heros" to fellow complainers. Then they wonder why they get dumb jobs or the boss is always on their asses over petty shit. The folks who do their job dispite their differences with their employers seem to get along just fine.......and they get the label of "ass kisser', "brown noser". Not to say there are not ass kissers types too, but most who get that label are not guilty. They just know the system, work within the system, and if the system needs improving they convey that to the proper people through the proper channels. Their patient, they care, the do their job even it it's not exactly what they might think it should be. They don't constantly buck the wind...........if things get so bad then they quietly leave to bigger and better things. Meanwhile the complainer is fighting constantly, feeling unappreciated............but he believes he's putting up the "good fight". But he's mainly just enjoying his little kingdom among his worshippers. He helps no one. He makes life misable for others who do not see things his way. "Change, dammit, Change!! I'm working to make it better for you..........you must believe that. Can't you see the boss is screwing you without even giving a kiss?" If he'd only put all that energy into actually helping he would truly be a hero................of all, not just his kingdom. It not in that type of person's makeup....it won't happen.

I hope some will follow the links I posted. I hope some will actually look at all the help that has actually been generated in all these SL forums over the years. That is what needs be saved for all residents. That is what needs to be made available to everyone....especially the new people. We do not need to save the tripe Mr Low is insisting needs to be saved............and certainly we do need to erect Mr Low a new platform in the new location for him to continue his bullshit. Linden Lab, nor any other business needs to provide such soapboxes.

Go elsewhere Mr Low.

This fanboi is done with this thread.

I looked at those links, and I don't see a problem with any of them. People take away different things from different styles of communication, and different types of topics. Trying to tell people what thread discussions are acceptable and what thread discussions are not, is about the same as trying to plug each person into some kind of category.

I'm not understanding this theme of 'putting people in categories.' From where are you getting 'putting people in categories'?

If you could just explain where it is you're getting this, then maybe it would be come clearer. Could you please quote specific sentences in which I called for putting people in categories?

I'm also not understanding how you could be missing the point that it's the claims/arguments/posts telling people not to talk about LL decisions that are being put into categories.

Claims are not people.

Arguments are not people.

Posts are not people.


How can I explain this so that you will understand that claims are not people? And that therefore, putting claims into categories is NOT 'putting people in categories'?

???




As for "who determined" that an argument is bad: human beings make such determinations (aka opinions). Again, I'm not understanding why this seems puzzling or mysterious...???

The point I have been trying to make from the beginning is that "trying to tell people what thread discussions are acceptable and what thread discussions are not" is a BAD thing. It's bad for Linden Lab, ultimately.

When people say anything that conveys 'you should not be discussing this', then in my view, they are acting against Linden Lab.

Hi again Ponsonby,

I'll leave a discussion of what makes a bad or good argument for another day if I may, except perhaps to say that in my experience the good ones are simply those that enlighten, clarify our own thinking, and yes maybe even influence.

As for the perspective above (bad argument #4 I think you've labelled it), I think you might be referring to my views so I thought I should clarify.

Firstly, I don't think I've prescribed any set of acceptable discussion points for these forums or any other. That job is for the moderators and possibly the community as a whole to decide and influence by various means.

My main point was I think, that some of the recent posts I've read seem to have been created with the intent of changing what is due to happen tomorrow, that is the closing of these forums.

My point is that they won't.

As for what can we really do?

I'm not going to stick my CV up here, there's no way I could persuade anyone of its veracity anyway.

All I can say really is that I have some experience in this sort of thing and in my experience there are always ways to get a clear and structured position in front of a management team.

Whether this be in f2f meeting, video conference, teleconference, position paper; if you can persuade someone somewhere that they might profit from giving you 10 minutes of their time, you're in the door and from there anything can happen.

To the people who glibly say "been there, tried that", I'd say (with no intent to cause insult), you probably need to put a more professional face on the job.

I'll be honest, I think that this particular horse has already bolted and all we're doing now is thinking about how we might shut the stable door a little better in the future.

Sorry if you've felt my posts insulting or unhelpful, that really wasn't my intention.

A cursory glance at the threads I've posted in shows that about one third are 'help answer a question' from someone who's asked for help about a SL topic.

Another bad (because false) argument, Peggy.