Difference between verbal griefing and the right to be hatefull?

"Bambi" style of upbringing?

Well, in my every days work (I am in sales for a bigger company) I know one thing, being rude or even hateful will bring me nowhere... except that I will loose my customers.
Apart from that it is possible to discus things without negative or hatefull things... and no, that doesn't mean one hasn't the right to. I just feel a lot better without.

Ah well, for me better a "Bambi" style of upbringing then a "Rambo" style of upbringing I guess

Morwen.

*looks at her cup of tea* Darn you all for being philosophical of a morning!

Kyrah, actually, this is a pretty good question for a Humanities Idea course, but it sucks for a forum though.

So, here's my take on it. No being rude is not griefing, but both are pretty darned annoying. Griefing screams, "I NEED A LIFE!!" Being rude means someone needs to learn to say what they feel in a way that is constructive rather than destructive. Criticism is great, when applied in a manner that teaches rather than serving as proof that the critic thinks the world only of themselves.

That isn't to say that one can't feel hate for something, but there are ways of saying in that don't leave one looking like a complete jackass to be dismissed out of hand for having an opinion of no worth.

Actually we do have a right to be hateful, we can't just sort what is good and what is bad in two buckets.
In hatefull i should have encompassed the term harsh or seemingly heartless, your army instructor or your football coach is being harsh and seeming heartless to strengthen you.


I think peoples sometimes learn better when instead of comforting them that it isn't their fault we sharply point that if they hadn't been so stupid it wouldn't have happened.
We live sadly in a society where its common to reject the fault on someone or something else.

Nicely said. I think part of the reason we are even having this discussion is that Criticism has become so nasty, vindictive and confrontational, just look at thart jerk on American Idle. While that is partially an act for TV possibly, it has created this hypersensitivty to criticism. When I was in school and I got a bad report card, my Parents asked "Why did you fail?" (Not that it actually happened much ). Today a Parent comes rushing in asking "Why did you fail my Kid?"

Most people are going to fail at one time or another at something. And someone will be around to point it out. Hopefully they will do it tactfully, and consructively. But sometims they will do like Nelson, just point and go "Ha, Ha".

Being a jerk isn't illegal.

Nor does being a jerk generally violate the terms of service, as such. You have to be a jerk in specific ways to violate the terms of service.

You do have the civil right to do anything which the law does not prohibit. Whether it's the right thing to do is a different matter. But laws and regulations cannot, and should not, govern every aspect of our behavior.

I just wouldn't call your two examples hateful. Harsh, maybe even heartless yes. But that's what my Dad would call Tough Love. (Or Tough Shit depending on the situation).

Everyone can be hateful but imagine world where everyone is hateful? Would be pleasant world to live in?
Personally for me and SL I am here to create and enjoy interacting with those who add something in my life and try to do same but it doesn't mean there aren't people, situations that remind me of unpleasantness of my first world. Yet at same time when it becomes something so unpleasantant and difficult why would I want to remain and continue to pay for the service? Same with friendships and interactions, I can choose where I am comfortable and who I am comfortable with, that add to pleasant experience and I can also choose to not interact with those who decrease the enjoyment of experience I am having. Yet at same time there are days when its hard to ignore or something or someone shows up that is latter. I can mute, I can ban, or just leave. Sometimes there are people and things I dislike but for me personally to be hateful and emotions to be hateful would only take time and energy I could use for something bit more pleasant. Yet you've right to be hateful if it works for you.

I don't think people have to be rude to offend.

I see many threads full of nice big humor and private jokes being made between groups of people that know each others. despite nobody can point a finger at the posts they certainly are treating the outsiders as a bunch of ignorants, with a smile on their faces.

So it's not the way of saying it either, I think it's acceptable to show anger as long as you also criticize yourself for not being able to hold that anger inside.

Nope. But it is a bad way to make people like you, not even to talk about making friends with them.

Morwen.

Being angry and being rude don't have to be the same thing.

I can be very angry and I surely can tell people my opinion on things... but I always try to stay away from being plain rude.

Morwen.

Maybe it's just my english, but if you are really angry you will be rude some way or another.
And being rude is not a plain or conscious thing, like I've said, you don't have to be rude or sound bad to offend. Some paternalist crap can also offend many people.

can you possibly express an opinion without attacking a person? if no then i suggest not post. There are some that seem to equate posting a negative opinion with be able to personally attack an individual they are two different things. One is acceptable and one is not.

Your post contained a lot of personal attacks that is rude and unnacceptable you could have gotten your point across a lot better (and not looked well nevermind.. leaves out personal attacks and thinks it but puts them in brackets to make a point... without actually coming out and saying it.. totally) without attacking the person and possibly had some people agree with you even

People like army instructors or football coaches often belong to a genetic phenotype that was no longer needed when the human race stopped throwing heavy or pointy things at animals in order to kill them and started to breed lifestock. But they never go extinct, because they always elbow themselves into a position of power and always manage to find some poor, shy woman who falls for the chauvinistic caveman type, whom they can elbow around in the bedroom in order to breed more close-minded knuckleheads.

That type of person gets away with insults and hate speech (e.g, "Are you f***ing f*gs or sissies?!?" on a level that no other person could risk. If an employer treated his employees that way, they could sue his *ss off.
Such behaviour doesn't "strenghten" anyone. It breaks people. Of course it seperates those who are easily broken from those who can't be broken, but for the price of the former being emotionally scarred and the latter being turned into intolerate knuckleheads themselves. I'm all for free speech, but strongly against abuse and misuse of power.

I can see that I insulted some groups of people myself with this post (cavemen, chauvinists, knuckleheads and army instructors, who are usually a combination of the first three groups). This is where the two-bucket-system comes in. I don't target a particular person. I don't stand in front of them and shout it into their square-edged, neanderthal-browed faces, as a personal insult. They too can say whatever they want, in their local pub or wherever, as long as they don't walk up to me, point at me and say "You [row of insults]". That would be bucket no.2, the bad one.

Good and bad (or rather right and wrong) is easily defined, btw. Primum nil nocere, to quote Galen - "First, do no harm". That's the only law and the only moral value that mankind needs. If no harm was done, there is no crime and no one should be punished (thinking of recent policy changes in SL). But if someone is harmed, either physically, mentally or emotionally, we have a punishable offense. People get depressive and even commit suicide because of constant harrassment or personal insults; looks like harm to me.

I think you have to really get to know someone before you can truly hate them. If I was walking down the street and someone out of the blue yells some cusswords at me then that would be griefing. If I was walking down the street in my white pointy hat and robes and someone yells cuss words at me then that's a person exercising their right to be hateful. If I was walking and tripped on a crack in the sidewalk and someone laughed and called me a clumsy oaf then that would be being rude.

but .. but .. but ...

The anti-geico caveman is one of my idols ...

http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/caveman_3.jpg

Actually when I get angry I am told the opposite happens and I simply become matter of fact but have never been known to outwardly call people names if i do its a conscious effort to make a point and there is usually no anger involved. It depends on how you learn to communicate where I come from swearing at people, calling them names and personally insulting them in anger is not the way to go. I was not brought up that way and I simply never took time to learn what I thought a useless skill . Also true anger is most defintely a waste of energy hehe along with another few types of emotions. The vile spewing anger that makes you shake or the name calling throwing crap that I see that makes people write all kinds of mean things its simply not worth the effor to some. Also despite what some people think getting angry and calling people names is not the norm in all cultures and races and all over the world.

I think on this board I have called someone a name once and at the time I was not angry I did it for other reasons and it was pretty tame and I have yet to call anyone stupid for asking a question

I'm not sure where asking a question would incite anger anyhow in the residents answers forum as its a place where one asks questions if it makes you angry to be here then don't come

True, but that would mean that there are people who must be angry 24/7/365...

I spent 4 very loong years working in an inner city area as a community worker (last community based job before I bailed out and became self employed lol) The calling people names etc thing while trying to make a point is a part of a certain culture I hate to say as well. They come off half the time as raving loonatics in the rest of the world and when you enter you experience culture shock and when you leave after working in that environment for years you experience culture shock. In this environment where people were just plain mean to each other and every other word was a swear word in order to settle disputes they used their fists and guns and whatnot. If the rest of the world became like this we would be in trouble.

example 1) wife got mad at her husband took sledge hammer and went to his car and smashed in the windows
example 2) guy had a hard day so bought drugs got royally messed up started tossing al the furniture out his apartment window to land squarly on top of my bosses car 100% of the time and buy the time the police dragged him outa the place she was the proud owner of a pancake
example 3) and about the time where I decided it was time to find work away from this environment an unemployed messed up person comes into my office and starts to scream at me because I had more money then her when she just got fired from her job because she chose to speak rudely to everyone around her and every other word outa her mouth was a swear word. (me walks out of office and starts filling out the early retirement forms that i was offered the day before to take the retirement package so i can get out of that environment)

These are just a few examples but when i see those posts about how someone is stupid etc it reminds me of when I worked in that setting because everyone called each other names all day everyday which resulted in them all being a rude swearing cursing name calling mess of people who were not capable of speaking any other way and could not hold down jobs as a result of it even slinging burgers they would get fired because they could not learn to behave.

So in conclusion if people want to be that way fine but eventually it starts to leak out over into other things they do and soon they can't make friends and become unemployed and can only hang out with people who act and talk like them and this bunch is a mean bunch and has a much more limited real world shelf life then the rest of us "civilized" folks who took the time to learn even if its not in our nature. Some people have a harder time being nice and are more "prone" to spewing bile all over others they are the ones that should be working hardest on their way of expressing themselves. If they argue and mean it (half the time when i read stuff on forums I dont think that people actualy mean it) then its likely in real life they are like the lot in that inner city area I worked in an unable to socialize with the rest of the world. I shudder to think what would happen if these pockets of mean people spread out to engulf the rest of the city/world one thing is for sure though society would break down at the seams and it would be a mess hehe

You have a right to be a jerk.

Everyone else has the right to judge you for being a jerk.

I would say "due to your unacceptable stupidity" is a personal attack.

Someone saying they didn't think being rude is the same as griefing is, in my opinion, practically taking up for you.

coco

Until recently that was the whole point of Basic Military training, the first half anyway, to break the person down so that they could be rebuilt in the mold the military desired.

Yes, us cavemen are best kept in a closet somewhere. That is until you hear something go bump in the dark and need it investigated, you need your tire changed so you don't get your soft hands dirty, the coal that powers most electric plants around the world.......need cavemen to dig that out as well. Who cuts down the trees to make the TP so you won't get splinters in your soft ass? The cavemen.

Closed minded knuckleheads? I think you need to look long and hard in the mirror.

Yes, I was thinking you were operating out of a sort of tough love concept, or the army sargeant mode.

But I don't think that actually works well, outside of, perhaps, the army or football, where incurring wrath of your learners is actually a useful tool, because you are trying to create a state of aggression that can be turned on or off as necessary.

In other realms, that kind of toughness (or humiliation) does not work well in teaching. And the Resident Answers forum is, at base, for teaching.

coco

Coco.

Drop and give me 20.

Sir! Yes sir!

*huff puff*

coco

Being a born & bred American who lives in an environment where politeness is often seen as weakness, and deserving of disrespect/punishment, I agree.

Folks use the term "grief" waaay too much. If this was a mainly American message board, you better believe that the majority of current "forum addicts"/frequent posters would post a LOT less, if at all. Hell, how many folks play an MMORPG with a mostly American population? Lotta "griefers"? Thought so. Happens *shrug*, it's not "the end of the World".

I hate the fact that they even have this ...name... "grief-ers". Do they hurt you so bad that you actually feel "grief"? Like when a relative dies? lol...let's hope not. I'm all for abolishing that "tag"...but it ain't gonna happen...just like a World full of politeness ain't gonna happen.

Take a breath, and use your wit/sense of humor, intelligence, maturity or if you MUST, an AR or TP to deal with..."griefers".

(...and "for the record", no...I didn't say it's immature to AR abusive users every once in a while.)