Can "rape" occur in SL?

I'd say gay-bashing RP should be allowable. Just because it's allowable doesn't mean people will. I mean seriously... you would need one person to roleplay a gay person... and the homophobes who normally resort to gay-bashing would NEVER EVER want to roleplay a gay person.

PRICK1: Hey dude lets do sum gay-bashing roleplay that would be so fun! Hur Hur.

PRICK2: Yeah. Huh Huh. Thats wuld be so cool.

PRICK1: OK, you be the gay and I will chase you and beat you up.

PRICK2: What? No way! You be the gay.

PRICK1: Whut the hell. You calling me gay you sumbich?

PRICK2: Yeah you're the one who wants me to be gay. So that means yur gay.

etc...

LOL! /Me Wipes diet coke from her screen

Don't be so sure about it. Why would a woman want to play the role of one of the worst kinds of attacks a woman could be subject to? And yet people do it...

Also there are plenty of homophobes out there that would do it if they thought they could get away with it.

Remember, they're not really a homosexual just like a kid in sexual ageplay isn't really a kid.

I don't think rape can happen in a virtual world, for the same reason physical abuse can't happen. But that doesn't mean that stalking, harassment and emotional abuse can't happen, or any crime that doesn't have to involve contact, such as theft.

I also think someone must have a very sheltered RL if they think SL is really more dangerous than their RL.

I so do not want teens on the current Mainland. Let it be, and build something new if there needs to be an all ages space. It's easier to start out new anyway.

im going to say no, due to the fact that its a virtual world.
rape is a traumatic experiance, and can leave scars emotional as well as physical, so please no attackin me because i said no.

the RP sims i have visited that have rape fantasies, have a pop up explaining exactly what is goin on there, thier rules and what happens on that sim. if YOU choose to ignore the rules by either discarding the notecard or reading it and going in anyway, YOU consent to the rules of that sim. if it happens outside of those sims, then you may have probable cause to file an ar report, but again, the choice is yours.

Read my previous three posts in this thread for clarification on my position.

One way you could arguably have a virtual rape without consent has actually happened, almost: A female newbie, not understanding yet what the options for escape are, trapped and getting bullied to get onto a poseball as the "price" of release. It ended safely, though - she made a panicky IM to a friend (an acquaintance of mine) who then talked her through the tp procedure to a safe spot. This was an especially troubling case because the female in question had a child av and no interest in sex and it was during the previous "ageplay" furor. In their AR they urged LL to notify appropriate law enforcement - this guy really could be bad news in RL as well. (LL reported back to them that LL had "done the right thing."

Second case: I found a female newbie in her first encounter with a griefer cage on a sandbox, also frantic, saying she would "do anything" to get out. I am sure she was not RPing. In this case the griefer had already moved on, however. I taught her the exit strategies and read the name of the cage owner to her so she could file an AR. That ended well: About 15 minutes later I rechecked the griefer's profile - and it was gone. Banned, that fast. Guess he already had a rap sheet...which, if had had stayed around the sandbox, could have included a virtual felony.

Best thing, when you meet a female newbie, make sure she knows how to escape.

Any way, it can be possible: Submission out of fear is not consent.

It wasn't LambdaMOO it was a different, older and smaller online world, but it was around the same year. (maybe +/- 1, my memory is sketchy).

Note that I was careful to use the term "VIRTUAL rape" not just "rape".

Rape (from m-w.com)
1 a archaic : to seize and take away by force b : DESPOIL
2 : to commit rape on

Forcibly taking over control of someone else's body (real or virtual) is upsetting, and while obviously not as severe as RL rape, the violation, rage and helplessness that the victim feels is very similar (I can't verify this personally but have spoken with two people that have been unfortunate enough to have been subjected to VR and RL rape.).

It has nothing to do with virtual genitals, it has to do with someone forcibly taking control of what you consider to be your own body. Yes, sure, VR rape is only a pale shadow of the real thing, I won't argue that... but keep in mind that online our name, our identity, our reputation are essential. For someone to hijack that without others in our community being aware... and then do things humiliating/disreputable/destructive AS US is a stab at the heart of the person we have invested hours of our online time to become.

Of course, if you have little invested in your online indentity then it doesn't matter much. But some people take this seriously. There are enough parallels in the nature of the violation and the mental consequences to the victim that no other term comes close to accurately describing it.

One of the things that disturbs me is that if the avatar (and especially the player) is a female, then griefing her in such a way as to make her feel like she has loss of control is being likened to rape.

Why is it not seen this way when it happens to males, whether avatar or in reality?

Are we so sure that females are psychologically weak that they will be hurt in a deep, life-affecting -and inherently sexual- way when they are faced with SL's -extremely mild- forms of griefing, when men are expected to simply shrug it off due to their mental fortitude?

Has nobody here been a newbie in a game where griefers killed, robbed, imprisoned, or otherwise curtailed the player's ability to control their character or avatar in some fashion? Sure, it's aggravating, but come on! RAPE if it happens to girls?

What are we really saying here?

Of course real rape cannot occur in SL, but the simulation or depiction of rape can. In some countries these latter acts are illegal, so there is a serious issue here.

There's a difference between the two.

Many women (and men) have rape fantasies. They are FANTASIES. They do not generally want to be raped for real, they want to pretend to be overpowered and be MADE to be as not-ty as they really want to be deep down inside but just can't let themselves go there normally. This is no secret and it's not generally considered self-destructive.

I'd have to imagine that few gay men have fantasies of being gay-bashed. Even if one did, and he got someone to play that game with him in private, it'd probably end up being the equivalent of a rape fantasy - no resemblence to the real thing. "Tell me I'm evil, tell me I'm BAD and girly, you big, manly Texan..." "Oh yeah, you're a faggot, that's right..."

Actual gaybashing is not tolerated, because it's a crime that can actually be perpetrated for real even in a virtual world. It's harrassment, and no harrassment is tolerated.

No argument about that fact.

The problem we are all facing is how to deal with the varying laws around the globe. As has been stated ad nauseum, a woman cannot reveal her hair in some countries without being charged with a crime. Gambling is illegal in some places. The depiction of the human form is illegal in some places.

I wish I had the grand solution to this one, but it's not as simple as stating that countries have various laws prohibiting different things. We know that, nobody disputes that. The trouble has been in finding a solution in SL that:

a) keeps LL from getting sued/jailed
b) keeps customers coming to SL

It's a real conundrum, isn't it? I'd have to say though, that THAT issue isn't really about rape, and whether or not it can happen in SL. It's about the hurdles inherent in a world wide virtual meeting zone and the collisions of conflicting laws.

You're assuming a few things...

a) all women engaging in sex in SL are actual women

b) RP is primarily sexual and for arousal

c) gay-bashing RP would have to be done with RL homosexuals involved

I'm not talking about actual harassment just like SL rape RP is not actual rape since there is consent.



Not if the "victim" is a willing participant as is assumed by the fact it's RP. It's a victimless crime...just like rape RP and sexual ageplay.

So how is it different?



Ah the line is grey indeed when it's happening in a reality that is...oh, say..."virtual"!

I'm not trying to make a case for gay-bashing in ANY form...I'm just putting this out there to see what people think the difference would be.

Both involve the simulation of a brutal attack on a group of people with the effort to take away a part of their life. Why is one okay and the other isn't?

I made none of those assumptions, nor would I accept those as givens in another person's argument as they are obviously flawed. I did, however, use some specific examples that relate to the much more general point. As a matter of fact, these assumptions are actually irrelevant to the validity of the rest of my argument, so I throw down the "Red Herring fallacy" flag on this point.



You are apparently agreeing with me, as that was pretty much the point of my post, only I wouldn't even go so far as to call it a victimless crime. There's no crime at all in roleplaying a fight/argument between characters, if both people are into the RP. In fact, even if someone wasn't into the RP, it's still not a crime. It's probably against the rules in most online environments though.



My argument stated quite the opposite: that roleplay between willing participants (whether about gaybashing or 'rape' or assasination of your elfin warlord) is not harrassment, but a fantasy of some kind (sexual fantasies are only one form.) Real harrassment involves an unwilling victim, and there are rules against that in SL. Real gaybashing falls under that umbrella.

Not getting your argument here.

I see this in a broader context. LL surely want to be seen as serious contenders in the IT Industry - market leaders in their field. To do this they must achieve professional standards - and this can mean formal accreditations as well as reputation and image. They will not succeed if they do not meet the standards expected from an international company. We can all be very quick to criticise when they fall below expected professional standards in such things as Customer Service. If in the IT industry, the LL product has a reputation for supporting such things as pornography and gambling, then they will be seen in that light and subject to legal forces applicable to those areas. I suspect that this is not in their business plans!

Males are also a target for RL violent rape, by other males. They just tend to bury their shame more deeply.

I definitely get what you're saying. I didn't join SL for years because all I'd heard about it was that it was a place for nerds to go have sex with avatars that look like Professor Snape in pink lingerie, while pulling slot machines and molesting baby poodles.

It's a complex issue, this staying open for business while enticing enough customers to pay for it all. I'm actually quite glad I don't have to be the decision maker on all this for Linden Labs.



I have five male friends, five, that have been physically abused by women and two that were raped by women; I know more that have been raped by men. Yes, I know it happens.

My point was that when a male is griefed, stuck in a cage, or made to go on all fours by a mislabeled pose ball, nobody seems quick to call it rape or to be deeply concerned for thei r mental health - and very few will associate a male avatar being caged/griefed as sexual AT ALL.

Yet if a female, or someone perceived to be female, in some way experiences a loss of control of her avatar, we are quick to jump on that sexual damage/emotional scarring bandwagon.

I don't like what that implies, personally.

I got caught in a cage in SL once - I "Ruthed" myself and told the perpetrator to BO. That worked

Well, in the context of SL I'm calling it a "crime" since it's against the "laws" handed down to us from the gods on Mount Olympus...I mean LL



So I ask you again...is gay-bashing RP any different than rape RP?

I'll take it one step further: What if a real gay person was a coincidental witness to gay-bashing RP for whatever reason and happened to have been a RL victim? Should they just mind their business or do they have a right to be offended and request that such activity not be allowed in SL?

What about a RL rape victim stumbling upon rape RP? What about an adult that was molested as a child stumbling upon a sexual ageplay RP session?

Are these three scenarios different? If so, how?

Me:

Squeeze:

I'm going to let someone else try to explain it this time.

I'll attempt to address your question seriously here, because I think there is a larger, and serious, issue behind it.

The fact is, there are fundamental, biological differences between men and women. It does not have to do with "weakness." In some ways women are actually the stronger, or at least more durable, sex. The most fundamental of all: It is women who get pregnant, and that inescapable fact has an unavoidable effect on the psychology of men and women and on how they are regarded and treated in society.

For a man to get "raped," (we must speak of forced anal or oral sex here), it may well be a searing experience with many psychological repercussions, but there is no risk that he will bear his rapist's child. For a woman, when it is vaginal rape, that is all too real a possibility. Have a child, and I think you will see how profoundly important it is to you, as a woman, whose child you are having and whether you have consented to this profound life-altering experience. Imagine being pregnant and therefore physically even more vulnerable for 9 months, bearing, nursing, and spending 20 years of your life rearing - and loving! - the child of your rapist. Then, think of the social and familial consequences of such an event. Now think about the possibility that, having happened once, it could happen again.

I am a man, so I cannot be dogmatic here, but I know something of women, and I am sympathetic to them. Women instinctively know they are vulnerable in ways men are not - differences in physical strength aside. Far more than men, women tend to need to feel safe, and in personal relationships to feel treasured and cared for, by their partner. (Men need to feel supported emotionally by their partner, but that is not the same thing.) The experience of an actual rape - and remember, for most rapists, it is even more a power trip centered on successful intimidation than it is a sexual thrill - is therefore, IMO, a deeper and psychologically more destructive experience for the person who must be the vessel and bearer of new life rather than its sire.

In this virtual setting, of course, there is no risk of anyone getting pregnant. However, people bring themselves to this virtual reality, and their personal being is very much present while they move their avatar around. People vary considerably in how closely they identify themselves and their own psychological integrity with their avatars, but it is plainly obvious that for many people, SL and their SL avatar become a quite important part of their inner lives. So yes, I think even a virtual experience of having control over one's self or avatar being forcibly taken away without consent and without your (ultimately willing) participation in roleplaying can have a more violent impact on a woman than it can on a man.

I think that is why some people (I am pretty certain they are all women) are so upset with Gorean and other simulated "forced" sex scenarios - it strikes too close to home for them. The fact that those scenarios play a different role in the PARTICIPANTS' separate sets of psychological needs and wants tends to get forgotten for that reason. See, there is a difference here. It is the difference between rape and ravishment. Fundamentally, rape is when a man forces a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to. Ravishment is when a man forces a woman to have sex when she DOES want to. Very different thing.

There has been an intellectual fashion for oh, a generation, now, that there is somehow "no difference" between men and women and that everything that happens between the sexes is somehow an act of oppression by men against women. This is only applying the general template of vile-oppressors-exploiting-weak-but-innocent-victims-to-champion-and-foment-"revolution"-for to the relationship of men and women. Like other such intellectual fabrications, it is paranoid; it is narrow, limited, and self-serving for its leading advocates; and it is wrong. And like other such fabrications, it causes much harm and misery, because it departs so much from reality. This is just one minor example of that disconnect between intellectual fashion and reality.

Bottom line, yes! Rape, including virtual rape, is a different proposition for a woman than it is for a man, and it therefore needs to be treated differently.

You aren't even talking about the same thing I am. I'm not talking about real rape or bashing of any kind.

I'll take your response as "yes I think gaybashing RP is just as okay as rape RP". That would have been a lot more simple for ya!

Maybe we should get someone else to explain your point of view for you since you are as of yet unable to articulate it.

I was kind of 'raped' in sl...
i left my naked avi on one fo the hug rugs that has sex poses on it too, she was cuddled up with her 'boyfrined' while i went for a bath.
he crashed while i was gone and when i returned, my avi was in one of the sex positions and the person that did it had left me a not so nice image of my avi which had been doctored in an image programme.
i read history and the guy that did this even took the time to emote with my lifeless avi for 30 mins while he had his way with her.

Har, you make a very good point.

Sarah, you should know better than to sleep naked somewhere where anyone can get to you...SL is no different.

Whoever did it probably just thought it was funny that they caught you slippin!

not to offend, and even though your partner was there when You left, i have learned to never leave your ava naked, on a sex rug, for any reason. may i suggest a security orb of some sort?

excellent points to ponder Har, but the Gorean part left me with the "huh?" bug.
the Gorean lifestyle, is based on choices(no im not a fan of it, even though i did play around with it my first few months in SL). in rl as in virtual, you can make the choice whether to participate in that particular lifstyle. imo its not the actual rape/ravishment of women in Gor, its the subjugation of women that bother some(ie my cattle are worth more than you are) and recall real life issues plaguing society today. just my 2.5cents.