Landbots - What can be done?

You say unfair, because your a baron, I say competitive advantage, because I'm a botter. Either way to the "average" user it amounts to nothing.



More FUD, this line is getting really old. Its a shame that you can't express you grievances without resorting to lies and half truths.



I'm not chastising barons for anything but deliberately distorting the truth to suit their own agenda, which DOES NOT include the needs of the "average" SL resident.



I would also add laziness when you can't produce a better argument than one that has been shot down hundreds of times before.



No, unlike some, I and many others would just adapt to the situation.

marcus

That would be the alternative to hammering the server into the ground.

and what we effectively have anyhow

And this is the point. The old "master class" (barons) have been ousted by the new "master class" the barons.

Its ironic that the barons are trying to rally the masses with cries of a cabal of bot users, when before the bots it was the barons who were accused of a cabal.

marcus

Such hypocricy and arrogance.

Quite obviously, you are a proponent of bots at any cost, yet you don't adhere to same standard you demand from everyone else.

Bots are are the ultimate in greed and has absolutely nothing to do with the average user, so your argument is moot.

Again with the lies about bots killing search. I have already, in another thread, explained why this is inaccurate. But for the record, again. LL have means at their disposal to stop the bots easily and quickly, if bots were killing search they would stop the bots. Its not hard for LL to do.

marcus

Have they really been ousted though? The names I have been told who are lobbying LL to end the bots still basically control the upper end of the market. The only difference now is they don't control the lower end too.

When? cite and example.



No my argument, which you fail to understand, is that bots and barons are bot driven by greed and have little to no interest in the "average" user. You and other barons claim altruism and also that the bots are evil because their owners are not. But the truth is, neither of us are altruistic.

This is all about money and power, nothing more.

marcus

You answered your own question to my point.

On one hand, you claim land barons have no say when it comes to the "average user", then it's the first thing that rolls off your keyboard to support your argument.

Money and power = Greed

You said it yourself.

Excellent point, but I should have clarified what I meant when I said 'market'. I was referring only to the bottom end.

But that is an excellent point, they do control the top end of the market and yet have the gall to accuse botters of being greedy. Isn't half of the market good enough for them?

Hypocrisy thy name is baron.

marcus

Again Weedy, I'm having a hard time deciphering what your trying to say. If you could clarify what you mean when you say 'barons have no say when it comes to the "average user"' I would appreciate it.

marcus

Cornering the marketplace is good for nobody in the long haul. The United States has strong laws to prevent anti-trust in business and finance.

I do agree with you on a couple points, that neither barons not bots are altruistic and LL has the power to nip this in bud before the really big guns come into SL and take it all.

As I say, this is the just the tip of the iceberg, and botters are stupider than I thought they are, if they think it will never happen.

Unless your name is Halliburton. LOL okay okay I better slip out of this now.

Its pity you think botters are stupid, because I for one don't think you are, I think your wrong, but not stupid.

But big business will never enter the land market using the method you described. It is far to risky a position for a company to put it's self in. The market in SL is highly unstable, SL could be gone tomorrow. No, its far better to invest some play money as a company, buy a sim, or some land and play with it, see if it plays out favorably. If not the campany hasn't lost much.

marcus

You claim, that advocating against bots is nothing more than self interest while hiding behind and altuistic veil.

I suggest to you, that is a blanket statement and is way off base, because you are not speaking from my position, you are speaking from yours.

This is a really slippery slope, by allowing bots into SL's land market and it is only going to get worse. Some bots to come will be alot more ruthless (no pun intended).

I fail to see how a bot or (multiple bots) in every sim will benefit anyone other than the company doing it.

I think you are misusing the term "barons," or at least we are not communicating with the same meaning.

To me, a land baron is primarily someone who OWNS a lot of land, and rents it out or sells it. For example, I live in Azure Islands, and I consider Adam and Nexus to be "land barons."

But they buy their land from LL, in the form of islands, and pretty much keep it.

"Land dealers" would be those who make their money by serving more as real estate people, primarily through frequent buying and selling of land.

So, every time you say "land barons" you throw me off.

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Naturally, I don't mean that land bots prevent people from getting land. I think I have made it quite clear that the land bots prevent others from getting the land that is the lowest priced. The issue is not that they get land; the issue is that they hog all the lowest price land for themselves. Actually, I assumed that was obviously the issue to everyone here.

I don't think I ever implied that I thought the argument was about the land bots making it impossible for others to get land at all. I think virtually nobody aware of this issue is quite that stupid.

And as opposed to land dealers who don't use bots, those who do enjoy superhuman advantages. So . . . if you are following me still, neither the human land dealers NOR the average person clicking to find land when he needs it for his own purchase stands a fair chance of finding it lower-priced land any longer.

Naturally, I resent a group of people using land bots to get all the lower priced land. Naturally, that same group of people gets rich due to the use of the bot. This is not to say that all of them act the same - some say they try to return mistakes.

I'm not just talking about mistakes, though. I'm talking about a virtual monopoly on the land market, allowing those with bots to automatically get first chance and first choice of all land on the market. Those individuals automatically get all the cheapest land, period.

It is possible that I misquoted the earlier person. But the point still stands. I just got done selling some land that I sold HIGHER than I normally would, and that is precisely because I know the land bots are out there.

I am neither being misleading or "regurgitating" anything false. I have nothing to regurgitate. I'm capable of analyzing the situation, and this is how I analyze it. Pretty elementary, actually.

Land bots should be outlawed.

Here you go with the altruism when it suits you.

You cannot say with certainty, that it will never happen... right?

Let's us for a minute assume it to be true. Is this a good thing or a bad thing, or just stark reality?

I never claimed I or any botter was altruistic. I said neither the barons nor the botters were.



Then we'll all have to adapt.



Again my point is flipping land has no benefit to anyone but the person doing it.

marcus

Well, I'm not panicking the general public. I AM the general public. And I'm saying how I view the whole thing.

You make a good point here.

First of all, you deserve to get fair market value for your land.

You have contributed to the solution by being informed as to your rights with regard to selling land.

Albeit altruistic, if everyone approached land sales from this viewpoint, the bots would disappear.

We would still have land barons, because it is possible, they are aware of markets where others would be willing to pay a higher price for premium land. Bots are not interested in niche markets, they are only interested in high volumes of low end margins.

The bots, and admittedly myself, buy land below market value and resell at the lowest end of the fair market value. Given that situation, land barons and bots really are not any different in this sense, other than one glaring detail..... fairness and equity. These bots are advocating against fairness and equity, in order to corner the market. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

I'm at a loss to find where I was being altruistic. I have never claimed that i have the best interest of the "average" SL user at heart.

I'm using the definition of altruism "Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness." with reference to the fact the barons are claiming that they are looking out for the "average" SL user by trying to stop bots having unfair market control and/or putting undue stress on search. And in the process claiming their motive are purely altruistic.

Which is a blatant fallacy. The barons and the botters are ONLY in it for the MONEY! and I have never claimed otherwise.



It's a change in the environment which has to be adapted to. Nothing more.

marcus

I think we have both misunderstood each other. I think our choice of words has lead us both to incorrect assumptions.



No, and I didn't mean you did. I just wanted to clarify your statement because some others are using broad statements to deliberately mislead "general" users about this issue.



My point exactly, which reinforces my point that this has very little impact on the "average" user, since they aren't out for the cheapest price. They just want a good price, around fair market value.



So you priced the land above the limit of the bots and then ended up making more of a profit. I can't see what the drawback is. If you were pricing below market in retaliation to the bots, this would be a different story.

But then again, selling land at any price in retaliation to the bots is still YOUR choice. You don't have to sell at any price you don't want to.



Hohum, well form an action comity and take it to the streets. Lets see how many "average" users care that the land barons are getting a raw deal. I bet I can count the number in one hand.

marcus

Okay, so you don't care about the average user.

I hear you saying that I don't care either, which is a blatant lie. Under the old system, NEVER EVER did I imply that it should be exclusive to me and the current land barons. If an individual wished to enter the land business, it's their right and I have absolutely no intention of creating obstacles or unfair advantages, based on a skill set in or outside of SL.

Bots however, create an obstacle to the average user and I will not sit here and allow you to accuse me of anything otherwise. You misrepresent my position by lumping me into the same greedy group as the bots and I will never stand for that.

Bots are exclusive, land barons are not. HUGE difference, so yours is the fallacy, not mine.

Bots, knowingly create them for the purposes of exclusive greed, nothing more.

If they even remotely concerned with fairness and equity, they would not be sitting on proprietary applications created from an open-source. It flies in the face of open-source.

I really doubt bots would release their work for two reasons, it would cut off their monopoly stranglehold on the market and it would implode the infrastructure.

Suffice it to say, they are exploiting the situation to maximize profits. That is tantamount to greed.

Sure but because fair market value is constantly moving you should also be prepared that your land that you bought for $10,000 one day is worth half the next, or even double.

But I don't what fair market value has to do with bots, since they have about the same impact on FMV as barons, very little.



Exactly, if more people actually knew how to sell land properly this wouldn't be an issue. It's not the bots fault the person made a mistake. But it is a choice for the bots owner if they want to return it.



Business isn't fair, and expecting that it be made so is anti-competitive. Don't take this as me saying "well stuff you all" because thats not my intent, but how far do we go in the interest of fairness?

Ok, we remove bots, land barons are happy, public is not. The public thinks that the land barons are stealing the cheap land and it "unfair", so we remove the barons? Land sales all together? What about the people who can't build, script or design, so they can't make any money, should we remove commerce completely and just give everyone free money, although their wouldn't be anything to buy with it.

Sure that might be far fetched, but when people start talking about whats "fair" and "right" it's subjective on a person basis. So what you might think is fair, I might think is not. Drawing a line in the sand based on fairness is doom to fail.

marcus

While we have some common ground here, although I still hear you speaking for the "public" not being happy.

The "public" is mixed about land land barons. Some dislike them with a passion for no other reason than envy, others feel the land dealers cause prices to go higher than they should be. Others are happy, that they sold their land to a baron, so they might be able to put bread on the table and pay tier/rent. I doubt many enjoy bots getting filthy rich so they can buy BMWs and trips to Hawaii. You cannot adequately represent the public on this point, because it's clearly split.

What you can represent about the public is equity. I don't hear you gunning for the average user who wishes to enter the land business at their own free will, given the tools within the Second Life or FirstLook viewers. Dismissing me as disingenuous on this point is wrong, dead wrong.

You have absolutely no understanding of me, my business ethics nor my committment and contribution to the community. You have cleary indicated you don't care. To me, that invalidates any justification you might have about the use of bots.