How old does my avatar need to look to have sex?

No - simply better nourished for growth during their formative years. Being larger does not mean a more developed human maturity. Evolution doesnt work that fast.

More teenaged girls proportionally were exploited for sex 100 years ago then they are now. They were just "married"

As to the rest - it will take me a moment to find the threads - since they were locked.

Please ask the child psychologist of your choice. Kids and teens of today are neither physically nor intellectually and emotionally comparable to kids and teens the same age 100 years ago, they are much more developed. This, of course, is a generalization, each kid is different. Still, the average 14yo of today would be able to run circles around the average 14yo from 1907 both physically and mentally.

That's not completely correct; I just had a look at the German penal code (Strafgesetzbuch). You can find it here. It sure has changed a lot since my youth, but sex between juveniles and adolescents is still limited to certain age groups, and illegal for adults. What you said is true for a person older than 18 and younger than 21 who has sex with a person younger than 16; but §182 subsection 2 (Absatz 2) says that a person over 21 years of age always commits a crime having sex with anyone younger than 16 (in my youth it was 16 and 18, not 14 and 21).

The translated text:

§182
[Sexual abuse of juveniles]

(1) A person older than 18, who abuses a person younger than 16 by

1. exploiting a dilemma/financial strait or paying them in order to conduct sexual activities with them, or
2. forces them by exploitation of a dilemma/financial strait to conduct sexual activities with others,

is punished by up to 5 years of imprisonment or a fine.

(2) A person older than 21, who abuses a person younger than 16 by

1. conducting sexual activities with them or
2. having them conduct sexual activities with others

and thereby exploits their lack of sexual self-determination, is punished by up to 3 years of imprisonment or a fine.

I did not say that there was a massive difference between an 18yo AV and a 15yo AV, I clearly stated that the difference between a short avatar and a child avatar.
look, I see your worry...dont get me wrong, but the point is to try and ban people who are participating in sex with minors as per this statement...
"If Linden Lab learns that someone is engaging in, advertising or promoting locations or activities involving the depiction of sexual or lewd acts involving minors, their account will be terminated, and we will fully cooperate with all appropriate authorities."

Now...yes, there is definately a case to be answered if your avatar looks "young" (like 15) but is actually MEANT to be 18, but the answer is simple... dont make your av look 15. I have an avatar.. and it doesnt look 15, most of second life has avatars that dont look 15.. if yours does, then perhaps you need to change it to avoid confusion?..or, dont use that AV to participate in sexual activities if you are that worried about it.

I can give you a great example of something like this that actually happened to me when the whole "copybot" thing went down. At the height of the copybot whoohar... I made a title from one of my groups that said "I'm a copybot". It was meant as a joke... a friend and I were jusdt having a bit of fun. Guess what happened? I found myself banned and ejected from many parcels. Why? because by putting a sign above my head that said I was a copybot, gave people a reason to doubt and with SL being SL.. people reacted instantly in a way that no one could be blamed for....except me. I pretended to be something that would have been a bannable offence if I had of been one.. and it upset people.Once I removed the sign, I had no more problems.
Now I should have a right to walk around secondlife with a sign above my head saying Im a copybot, if that is my choice... but if I do, I need to be aware that many people may not see the humour and I need to expect to wear the consequences.

If your "young" AV causes doubt to people, then there is probably a reason for it ... and maybe you should just do something about it to stop the confusion. Yes you have the RIGHT to walk around with your "young" looking avatar...but why risk the consequences and a whole heap of explaining..just "age" your AV on a little..and no one has to worry any more.

Sorry, but you are wrong. You misinterpreted the following



The THEREBY is a wrong translation, the german original is "und dabei", correct translation would be "and while doing so" - it is an ADDITIONAL requirement for making what the older person does forbidden. It is NOT saying that this is per se the case. It has to be proven in each individual case, that there actually WAS lack of sexual self-determination involved and exploited.

In the year 2003 only 73 persons were found guilty of violating §182, while 2800 were found guilty of violating §176 (kids under 14) - and thats eventhough sex between adults and 14yo and older is much more common than sex between adults and younger kids. The requirements to make sex between lets say a 25yo and a 15yo illegal in Germany are very high. Many parents have to learn that who are not happy with their teenagers being in a relationship with adults.

What is that difference then? Is it pubic hair? Breasts over a certain size? A particular measurement of a mature vs. an immature penis? It's easy to have an age cutoff in RL because RL people have RL ages that are determined objectively. Police don't lay criminal charges if you have sex with someone who looks 15, they look at how long ago the person was born and use that to make a decision.




> depiction of sexual or lewd acts involving minors

Like... sex with someone that looks 17? What objective measure gets used here? LL have to look at an avatar and decide "This one is under 18, that one is 18" How do they do this?

So far the answer is "let a sensationalist German news report decide" but you seem to think you have some method of telling child avatars from young avatars.






THEN TELL US HOW! Do we need to use avatars with wrinkle lines and saggy body shapes? A tattoo? A prim drivers license with DOB shown? What is this magic formula that stops someone looking under 18?




... and if you had of been reported LL would have said "File a DMCA takedown notice but unless there is evidence Alice Pinkerton is stealing IP and the owner is willing to jump through hoops for us we won't do anything" See, the burden of proof there is on teh person whose work was stolen. You didn't steal anything, so LL won't become involved. If you think there is no difference between that and their stance on avatar age make a group tag that says "I'm 13 and I want sex" and see how long your account lasts.



Because I shouldn't have to worry that some idiot from LL is keen to appease the German media and hence willing to ban me under poorly defined rules that LL won't clarify.

This isn't about individual land owners banning accounts... no one is complaining about that which is what your copybot tag story was about. This is about LL doing permanent account bans based on criteria THEY WILL NOT SHARE WITH US.

I have a degree in History and I have studied Anthropology at a college level - I am not unversed in the relative evolution of the human species in the last 100 years - Which is zero. Id be interested to find a competant peer reviewed genetic study comparing DNA that says otherwise.

Most studies I see would indicate the average 14 year old would of today be more likely to be overweight. Many will be more educated - due to mandatory school attendance, but an educated 14 year old of 1907 and today on average would have similar levels of mental ability.

The big difference is in the nutrition needed to help people grow during their formative years. Leading to taller and heavier children.

I fail to see The relevance in people being more developed anyway. Age of consent dates back to times where people had their children married off younger. Its not a product of Child Phychologist studies. Attempts to justify certain ages that were already in place is not the same thing as coming up with a realisitc age of consent.

And Finally - even if you are right and 14 year olds are more capable than 100 years ago that doesnt mean they reach their full Maturity to make decisions any earlier. Since it carries that if a 14 year old is superior to a 14 year old of 100 years ago - A full adult of now would be just as superior to a full adult then.

Im not entirely sure that 18 is the proper age either - the problem is its impossible to make an unbiased scientific study reguarding age of consent and then impliment it, the age they come up with would be expected to be relatively close to that societies laws and customs.


In a non Political World - (good luck finding one)
The best way to do it would be an objective study to find out when humans were completely mature, particularily Brain development and function, find out when a sizable Majority of people fit into this catagory. Pick a decent safety margin (round up) And then set that as the age.

Since anything less would be to imply someone who has not fully matured is capable of deciding when to enter into a Adult sexual relationship with someone who is.

Making it simply a learned decision- You would be able to teach anyone of any age to make a similair learned decision, provided enough intelligence.

Should a 10 year old with 200 IQ be considered able to provide informed Consent on sexual matters, simply becuase they can spout back the rationalle on making that consent backwards and forwards at a higher level than most adults?


Edit -

One bit of curiousity -

How does the child Phychologist do a direct comparision of children 100 years removed?

Its not like they can evaluate children of both time periods.

You cant take a evaluation avaible today and decide since that information isnt avaible about kids 100 years ago that means kids are more advanced.

Ill stick to biological, historical, and anthropological compairisions; I think.

Well, "barely 18" seems to be the male ideal (judging by the mass of porn sites advertising with this slogan). And a female planning to have sex in SL, or a male planning to be a female in SL and having sex, wants of course to be as attractive (youthful) as possible, which could easily be mistaken.
In the BDSM scene, there's an additional factor from the viewpoint of a submissive. A submissive might want to look young and vulnerable. Of course clearly sexually mature and not underaged, but young. 18, perhaps 17 or 16.

Most person's ideal is a juvenile, young appearance (looking like 16-25). What we find attractive while we develop our own sexuality coins us. Some were always drawn to older types, even in their youth; others found peers attractive during their own teenage years. That's why schoolgirls / college students are such a strong male fantasy. I guess most american and japanese prostitutes could confirm that a school girl uniform is the getup that's most often asked for by their customers (in Germany there are no school uniforms, otherwise I'm sure we'd have the same common fetish).

It's not restricted to males by the way. Male actors with a juvenile appearance, like Johnny Depp or Leonardo DiCaprio, are also found attractive by many older women. Of course no one is a pedophile by desiring sexually mature but youthful looking (and therefore attractive) partners. It's hard-wired into our genes. Only that in our society sexual maturity and adult age are seperated by the laws can make a natural instinct a bit uncomfortable.

But in SL there shouldn't be any laws or rules if both partners are clearly of legal age. People should be allowed to combine a mature brain with a youthful avatar appearance if they want. While it's understandable in a way that they'll get into trouble if their profile says "I'm 16", I can't understand why anyone would have any problem with an avatar that looks like 16 or 17. Many 18 year old persons in RL look as if they were younger.

I think if you would show a picture of your alt to your mother or some other non-SL playing adult and they say, hey thats a kid. Then obivously one would have a concern in a Sexual roleplay area about being banned.

No one is going to blanket ban a Hogwarts sim because they are kids avatars there. A hogwarts themed pedopalace would obviously have other worrys.

The infamous Notecard Hush document

Dear Second Life Resident:

Linden Lab would like to inform you that your land or
business is not in compliance with Second Life's Community
Standards. The depiction of sexual activity involving minors
may violate real-world laws in some areas, and the Second
Life community as a whole has made it clear that it views
such behavior to be broadly offensive. Linden Lab chooses
not to allow the advertising or promotion of age play or
related activities in any public forum -- including in-world
textures, classified ads, the Second Life forums, or parcel
descriptions.

Advertisements, promotions, or descriptions of such
activities must be removed to avoid account sanctions. Any
account asserting an age that does not meet Second Life's
minimum age of eligibility will be closed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


You are therefore not allowed to say you are less than Second Life's age of elegibility - which is 18.

I believe on the Robin Linden Office march this was confirmed and child players (non sexual ) have said similair.

Im having trouble finding the March on Robin's office transcript - where the forums searchbot anyhow Electric Sheep -people?

"Dabei" and "Dadurch", which are interchangeable here, both translate to "thereby" in this context. Please check a dictionary like Leo, which lists "thereby" for both words. "While doing so" would be a mistranslation; make it "by doing so", and you have the right meaning again (which is the same as "thereby".

Do you really think that our laws would permit an adult (21 or older) to have sex with a teenager younger than 16? I can't believe that, and §182 subsection 2 says otherwise. Even if you completely leave out the sentence you think I mistranslated, it still clearly says that a 21 year old person having sex with a person younger than 16 is a criminal. If it had the meaning you're trying to interpret into it, there'd be no need for subsection 2 at all. 1 and 2 would be identical.

Why is the 18 year old exploiter charged with up to 5 years of jailtime, and the 21 year old only with up to 3 years? Because the 21 year old doesn't have to be an exploiter; the subsection deals with consentual sex. As soon as exploit is added to the charge, he can also be sentenced to 5 years according to subsection 1.

By the way, no parent has to accept that their kid (under 1 has a sexual relationship with anyone. Until the kid turns 18, they make the rules and can forbid them to have sex at all if they want.


/Edit: of course I agree with you on the actual topic of this discussion; LL shouldn't be more restrictive than laws, it should be less restrictive. All people here (all people allowed to be on the adult grid) are adults, and we want to be treated accordingly. That includes the right to choose any avatar that isn't too obscene, and even the latter if the sim owner doesn't mind obscenity.

alice the pigtails look is not necessarily specific to children. maybe u grew old very fast, but there are millions of women that wear piggies during their twenties and even through their thirties. there even social scenes that that praise piggies. its not ageplay or finding gray areas or being a troublemaker or finding boundaries, or any of that bullshit. tattooed, listening to the dead kennedys and wearing piggies isnt ageplay hey.

if you look at the forum header two out of three girls are wearing piggies!

ll is an american company and it seems most avs think everyone is american, and u know taboo in the usa is always sexual.

Including Aimee! (the one on the right)

This is true -

Parents will happily let their kids play Mature rated video games all day ... add some sex .. and its outrage

Remember the big uproar over those Grand Theft Auto codes that let the character have virtual sex with his girlfreind? A lot of Parents were fine with a game based on Murder, Car theft, and destruction - but once that little bit of sex was added ....

The world was coming to a end


However - it does have to be said the Euro laws are stricter on Virtual Sexual Ageplay than the US laws are.

While normally US censorship towards sex is stricter than Europe - such as partial nudity on TV, etc.

Pubic hair is definately not the answer as many people shave, breast size is nothing to go off, thats way to variable. Obviously penis measurement is not the answer also. It is definately not as easy as in RL where, as you state you can just find out how old the person ACTUALLY is... In SL people are going to have to use their best discretion..and I am sure LL will investigate any claims made in a serious and professional manner. But again, if you get abuse reported once, and LL have a look and say... "nah that ones not an issue" but then you get Abuse reported another 20 times, then I think it is fair to say that your AV has a problem with the look of its age.


I dont believe the answer is anything like "let a sensationalist German news report decide" as you stated. I think the answer is "if you are involving yourself in simulated sex with a minor, you will be banned and reported to the proper authorities". I dont see anywhere where LL have made claims to letting an outside source decide. In reference to the case in question..LL investigated the claims. it was reported, and investigated and acted upon, just as it should have been.
I have always associated the word "child" with pre teenage years. And yes, I think I could tell the difference between an AV thats just meant to look 18 ..and one thats meant to look like a 6 year old. I also stated that if there was a hazy line, perhaps people should ask a linden or friends online and see what they say. That may be an answer to it all.



Its not a "magic" formula... its common sense. Get onto SL and have a play with the sliders, you can make an AV look old... or you can make an AV look young, you can make them look "around 25" you can make them look "around 40" I am sure you already know this... its not hard to make an AV look older.


I think you might have missed my point there...which is a shame. All I was pointing out was that I made it appear as though I could have been something...and thus got whacked for it. When I no longer appeared that way, I havent had a problem since.





If you are not willing to comply with the rules set out by LL, then there is a chance you will be banned. I am not at all concerned as to WHY the new rule from LL has been handed down (except for my concern for the Linden Lab company, their employees and the whole game of Second life), all I know is, there is a new rule, that SHOULDNT worry the general population too much, that has to be abided by. In fact the only people it should worry is those individuals who were/are involved in Age play and any distrobution of child Pornography.
If you have a young AV...and you dont think you should have to change it...and you are involved in what is defined in their statement..then I would say that you can expect to be banned.

Not to quibble over minor details but I think it was Denise that mentioned Pigtails? I could be wrong...but I dont think that I have mentioned it. (aside from anything else...my AV has them at the moment lol)

grand theft auto was banned in australia (im an aussie) for extreme violence, specifically the game tactic where a player pays a prostitute to 'rejuvenate' him, then he beats her to death with a baseball bat to take his money back. virtual sex? we couldnt care less. beating a streetwalker to death? bannable. the fact that americans were up in arms over the sex bit is just so expected!
ill tell you i would MUCH rather catch my boy looking at hardcore german porn than find him spellbound by rotten.com and such truly sick shit.

Most female SL avatars look young. The basic female Ruth avatar already does. Anyone could say that they look like 16 or 17. Someone who prefers a slim shape and therefore reduces breast size and hip width might even look younger, even if the avatar is intended to represent an adult person. I find it understandable that people are worried now.

ok, well i said that to denise then

I have to agree that the lil bit of virtual sex was just noise on a game that should have been considered offensive already ...

But it was interesting noting what was the "last straw"

This isnt video games though - its cultural indoctrination.

Violence being a more accepted subject in Entertainment than sex dates right back to the Victorian Era.

So on this one - we can blame the Brits for setting things in motion.

If American culture is at fault, its for perpretuating that longer than some other Western based Cultures, and having the ability (due to economy and technology) that allowed for mass distrubution of Entertainment culture at an unprecedented level for so long. Hollywood.

i think its religion. religion is really big in the usa, even actors and singer feel obligated to 'thank god' everytime they receive an award.

religeon isnt as big in the USA as people from overseas think it is.

Nope, they translate to "only if". If it was otherwise, that whole sentence wouldn't even be necessary. Sex between over 21 and under 16 would be forbidden. Point. It isn't. Look at the german webpage of your choice, you could start with the usual teeny mags like Bravo and Yam, or wikipedia.



As I said, it is an "only if" situation. Like a senior can't lose his driving license just by turning 75, but only when his age makes it impossible for him to drive safely. As I stated (and as you can find on every up-to-date website on the net) the 21yo in Germany *can* be prosecuted, but *only* if someone sues him AND if it is proven, that he actually exploited a lack of sexual self determination. This wouldn't be the rule but the exception.



Yup. If that would really work is another question, lol.

Teenagers of today may have more "knowledge" but I say, they are no where near as mature even as teenagers of 20 years ago, much less 100 years ago. Todays kids live in a world of being coddled, a counselor for everything and anything. The kids of today may be physically ahead of the ones in years past, but emotionally they are stunted.