Love in SL?

EVEN IF your RL marriage is on the rocks, or your wife is okay with your SL relationship... how you gonna explain this to your kids? Aren't THEY important to you?

Well here's my view on the situation. Internet dating and internet relationship is viewed oddly by the "general" public who might have never been a situation of this type. They see the internet as something that is purely an object of communication and has nothing to do with emotion or the character of someone. Spending enough time communicating with someone via text is no different then speaking to someone in the real world. As many have already said its about you're feelings toward the person, so what if you can only read what they are thinking, the passion and emotion is still there just as with other forms of communication, and if you love this girl good for you man, text is no different then if you were talking to this girl via phone, just as the public has become more acustom to the phone as a viable source of communication the internet will soon follow. I must insist however that you don't become too attached to this girl. You're marriage will suffer as many people have said you'll want to talk to this person more than your wife and you need to think about your kids, if you spend time talking to this girl as much as you may love her if your marriage was to break down it wouldnt affect only you and your wife but also your kids, it would disrupt the family they have become acustom to, and are you willing to trade your family for this girl you met? Thats the question you need to ask yourself, and second life as with many things needs to be taken in moderation.

Well...for one reason and another, I don't want to be judgemental, BUT...

There are a number of important questions you need to ask yourself, and no-one here can give you the answers, because no-one here is exactly in your situation:

1) What do you feel about her? Does your heart beat faster when you see the '..is Online' pop-up? Does a day feel somehow incomplete if you don't speak to her? And are you thinking about HER or her Avatar? What do you really know about this woman? I mean REALLY...her personality, her RL appearance, her political/religious views, her bad habits, her bad moods? If you want to relate to the human being behind the av, you need to acknowledge her as a human being, with as many faults and foibles as you, I, your wife or anyone.

2) What do you want from this relationship? A holiday from your RL wife and responsibilities? Did you marry young, or not date much before you married? Are you re-experiencing that with her? Does your RL relationship lack romance, or has it done since the kids came along? It's not just women who need romance, you know, or to be made to feel special and valued, and SL can be a very romantic place at times...and it's so much easier to put someone on a pedestal if you haven't seen them shaving their legs in the bath.

3)What does SHE want from the relationship? The same thing as you? If she's in a bad or unfulfilling relationship now, then she might be looking for a little attention or affirmation herself. Is she looking for an excuse to leave her present relationship? Or just a panacea to make it a little more bearable? Has she really been totally honest with you about the state of her current relationship? Or totally honest with herself about it?

4) If you want to cross that 'membrane' between SL and RL...Well, do you? Can you? Is it physically (geographically) possible? And would you want to even if you could? And if you wanted to meet, and did...what then? Physical presence is an entirely different matter than virtual presence; you could find each other unattractive...perhaps she has an annoying laugh, or you have an irritating voice...And if you did find each other attractive, what then? A hotel room, and really break your wedding vows? Or resist temptation, and be miserable?

5) What about your RL family? Does your wife suspect? Are you sure? Doesn't she wonder why you spend so long in SL, and what you're doing all the time you're there? Do you make something up, or just not talk about it? What did you do with your time before you joined SL? An online relationship takes commitment, and also a lot of time...Is it taking time away from family activities, chores, family time? Does your wife resent this? Have you asked her? What about your girl's boyfriend? Does he know? How would he, or your wife, react if they did?

6) If you and your SL love worked in the same office, or new each other through mutual friends, and you felt the same way...would you even be asking this question? Do you assume this is different just because of geography?

Now, as I said, no-one can answer these questions but you...I don't mean to pour cold water on your dream; merely to give you some things to think about. Though since I can't resist giving just one piece of advice, it would be: treat this exactly the same as you would any real relationship with a real person (since at its base, that's exactly what it is), just as likely to succeed or fail, to bring you pleasure or ruin your life, as ANY real relationship...but the best of luck with whatever you decide.

Thanks to all who did bother to write these lengthy and in depth answers. I am impressed how people care without knowing me at all.

Back to topic: I asked her to exchange RL information like E-mails and phone numbers. I wanted to hear how her voice sounds like and exchange pictures so I know what she looks like and be able to send a quick mail without having to rely on being online in SL.

She categorically refused. Her reason was, she doesn't want this to get out of control, emotionally. She fears that she could get too close to me and get hurt afterwards, as our relationship has for obvious reasons no RL future. First of all because I am committed already and in RL the age difference does matter (she is 22, I am 39) in SL it doesn't - i think.

She is in this matter apparently more cautious then me and I respect her feelings about that because of that fear.

I told her that if one day she wants to talk to me or E-mail me she may do so but if she doesn't that's fine too. I will not insist on it. I gave her my contact details and she did not write them down, but then again to find my contact details is easy as I own a well known marketing company and she know the company name and my real name, so no big deal. My real name returns lots of results in Google - one surely is the the "contact us" page of the company website.

That we could meet, like one poster suggested, is very unlikely anyway - we live about 3000 miles from each other.

So best I can do is keeping it strictly SL, and enjoy my online affair it as long as it lasts and stick to the limits. Hmm, but really would like to hear that voice. You know she is really sweet - it's so tempting.

NOW she is a couple of days away and will not come online until about thuesday, I shall see how that feels....

Wolfie

There's nothing wrong with people (or avatars) falling in love in SL although that could lead to complications if it overlaps into RL

However I can't see myself ever falling in love in SL - I'm just in love with SL in its entirety (or perhaps more love/hate at times! LOL)

However I was in a sandbox yesterday and a total (like - less that a day in-world!) newbie told me he loved me!!!!!!!

Personally, I think SL relationships are mostly auto-erotic, i.e. you discover a part of your own self by interacting with a blank slate... Its like seeing shadows cast by the leaves on a tree...your mind turns the shadows into images that aren't real. Its fascinating the powerful feelings that come up, but I think they are feelings in their purest forms...feelings that would be suppressed in real life relationships because they are so raw, or would be tempered by reality. I think SL is therapeutic in the sense it gives you a chance to experience parts of yourself you don't feel in RL. But it is ultimately a reflection of your inner world only. Your SL g/f is jealous of other female avaters, I don't think that.s bizarre. Doesn't every man have an inner woman who is jealous if he pays attention to other women?

Hello again Wolfgang, thankyou for the update

I'm not entirely surprised she wants to draw the line. As Abby and many others have said, the emotions are still there .. but it's a different world. It might make an interesting poll to see how many of us would cross that line or stand behind it.

There are different reasons for taking the same action mostly surrounding the 'accuracy' if you like of the implied persona.

I'm not implying deception or dishonesty here. I simply mean that many of us project into our avatars emotions, feelings and characteristics that perhaps lie dormant in our real lives. Many would be afraid to show them for real and keep them hidden IRL and only for display and exercise in our SecondLife.

I hope you both remain friends but I think as your friend seems to point out, the division between SL and RL should be preserved, at least for the sake of preserving your RL.

Bil.

First time post... I've read this with great interest and if I may finally provide you with some less 'heart-felt' responses and add a bit of 'the science of love' to your mix of thoughts.

Pulled from the helpful resource Wikipedia: A search on Biology of Love produced:

Biological models of sex tend to view love as a mammalian drive,[citation needed] much like hunger or thirst. Helen Fisher, a leading expert in the topic of love, divides the experience of love into three partly-overlapping stages: lust, attraction, and attachment. Lust exposes people to others, romantic attraction encourages people to focus their energy on mating, and attachment involves tolerating the spouse long enough to rear a child into infancy.

Lust is the initial passionate sexual desire that promotes mating, and involves the increased release of chemicals such as testosterone and estrogen. These effects rarely last more than a few weeks or months. Attraction is the more individualized and romantic desire for a specific candidate for mating, which develops out of lust as commitment to an individual mate forms. Recent studies in neuroscience have indicated that as people fall in love, the brain consistently releases a certain set of chemicals, including dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, which act similar to amphetamines, stimulating the brain's pleasure center and leading to side-effects such as an increased heart rate, loss of appetite and sleep, and an intense feeling of excitement. Research has indicated that this stage generally lasts from one and a half to three years.[7]

Since the lust and attraction stages are both considered temporary, a third stage is needed to account for long-term relationships. Attachment is the bonding which promotes relationships that last for many years, and even decades. Attachment is generally based on commitments such as marriage and children, or on mutual friendship based on things like shared interests. It has been linked to higher levels of the chemicals oxytocin and vasopressin than short-term relationships have.[7]

In 2005, Italian scientists at Pavia University found that a protein molecule known as the nerve growth factor (NGF) has high levels when people first fall in love, but these levels return to as they were after one year. Specifically, four neurotrophin levels, i.e. NGF, BDNF, NT-3, and NT-4, of 58 subjects who had recently fallen in love were compared with levels in a control group who were either single or already engaged in a long-term relationship. The results showed that NGF levels were significantly higher in the subjects in love than as compared to either of the control groups.[8]

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So... I know by now you have been through a lot, and recently have discovered boundaries you were once questioning, however it may help your 'mind' to understand that there is some science to what you have been learning and chemicals within your brain have been having some influence. This also helps explain why some may or may not be able to keep the two (RL vs SL) separate. Some of us just may, or may not, produce different levels of these chemicals and the result is varying degrees of 'attachment' to our real and virtual loves....

Hope it helps...

Hi Turbo Streeter

Ok so looking on the screen increases my hormon levels...sorry, but I don't buy that. But was an interesting read. Maybe It's all happening because the 'attachment' feelings, I have with my wife are lacking romance (or estrogen and testosterone) and mt mind wants to experience these feelings again? Wouldn't I have a RL affair if that was the case (which I don't have)?

Wolfie

Maybe you could invite your wife to join SL? You might find that you fall in love with her all over again if you get a chance to see her in a new way.

A marriage is a big thing to risk for someone you don't know in another country.

That's the most incisive observation I've read yet.

Goes for RL, too, if you think about it.

Well... thats not actually what it said. I think you're being somewhat narrow in trying to find a cause. Studies have proven however that visual stimulous can, and does, have an impact on things such as heart rate, increased breathing rate and internal chemical releases (whether you 'buy it' or not) but you AREN'T JUST looking at a screen now are you? Aren't you also talking with this other person, sharing experiences with this other person, thinking about this other person when not online?? You MUST consider everything you are doing as possible factors which contribute to your 'feelings', or the chemical reactions that have been happening in your brain. "Looking on the screen" is just a part of a whole is it not?



This statement does seem to make me think you are getting it at least to a point. Based on the information, the chemicals you must deal with in a new romance are released less and less and may finally stop. If it is true that these initial brain produced chemicals work like 'amphetamines' then reason says you can develop 'addictions' to these chemicals. Like other 'documented addictions', often the 'buzz' you feel from the same 'dose' starts not to fulfill your addicted needs any more. You start needing more and more, in higher dosages and if you can't get that any more through your virtual life where do you turn for you 'fix' next? Which leads to...



You tell me! You're the only one who knows how far you'd be willing to go, what you're willing to risk and just how much more of that feeling you want... Just as your brain questions whether you are really in love with a virtual mate, don't you think both your brain and your heart dictate what reasonble actions you're willing to take in the real world? This isn't cut and dry my friend... and you are being influenced by many factors that are pulling agaisnt each other. Don't be so quick to discount the possible scientific reasons impacting your judgement.

Update on Ginny & Wolfgang

Its over! And it hurts. Her partner actually prohibits her to go into SL anymore . His argument is that she changed a lot since she "plays that game". He will uninstall it from the computer tonight and from then she is gone - and I have no alternative contact. I saw her this morning in SL, for a last time.....

Not nice this it really hurts

Wolfie

Oh jeez Wolfgang, I'm so sorry to hear it.
I find Ginnys partners action understandable in a way, but a little disturbing too. I hope she will be ok but alas, with the removal of the channel of comms, hope is all we have.
SL does change us. Some for the better, some not. For some the eroticism and seduction can be very damaging, if at odds with RL relationships. Thankfully I came back from the brink.
I hope this makes you stronger.
Regards, Bil

I am sorry to hear that Wolfie... Truly

Not to make light of it... but even though it hurts now you have, figuring 40% of users are supposed to be female in SL, roughly 12,000 other ladies to find and get to know. (40% of 30,000 users online). Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all... and someone else special is still out there!

Kind Words Turbo, Thanks, and without chemicals...

Yes true there a lot of girls out there, and I got to knew some which kind of like me, but you know I wasn't looking for it just happened. Well, time to turn the page a to go on with my business -SL.

Live goes on, even the second one

Wolfie

I agree with this partially. It's a point I wanted to touch on in more entirety than my original post. As human beings we look for many things in a mate and many of those things are biological in origin. Tones of voice, eye contact, body language, pheremones, the list goes on. I think one of the MOST IMPORTANT things to remember is that we do not have these in SL. I believe that our minds INSERT these things based upon how we would LIKE for that person to respond to us. It is true even when two people mutally like each other virtually. We base our feelings about what we interperet from reletively little input.

I think most of us can agree without lying to ourselves that we find the avatars attractive because that is how they are designed. They are more than the pixels of "Mario" and "MS. PacMan" from the 80s. There are some serious graphics designed to appeal to our sexual desires and they do. I'd wager most people woudln't even approach some of the avs if they were represented by their real images than the "always 20s lingere model" av that prevails mostly through SL.

My suggestion (and this is what I always do)... hope for the best but expect the worst. When I meet someone in SL, my default indication of what they are RL is the following: a mid-50s, unemployed, unshaven, unwashed MAN (regardless of SL gender), sitting in 3 day old underwear, 1 half-empty bag of cheetos (with two other empty bags nearby), the cheap Wal-Mart pop cans (incuding empties, partially full and full cans) with their mother yelling down into the basement (which is their home) to get their ass upstairs because he was supposed to take the garbage out six hours ago. Oh, and don't forget the bad/missing teeth and 20 unspayed/neutered cats running around said basement. Then as time goes on and I get fed information to indicate otherwise, I'll upgrade from there.

Other rules:
1) Always assume it's a male unless you talk to them in some method via voice.
2) Never assume the pictures of the girls they send are really them, especially if they are nudes or sexy shots. Nudes are nice, but easy to download. Ask for several candid regular shots that one would normally share with family and friends, those are more reliable than the easily downloaded "sexy" shots. Also... they should be many more plentiful and easily uploaded "regular" shots than the sexy ones.
3) Always, ALWAYS be skeptical regarding ANY information.

I can't agree on the "blank slate" theory, however because there is another person providing some input and expressing their feelings in the limited way that they can through SL.

Welcome to SL chere,
Yes, love Is Possible On Line. Getting past all the extranious analysis, people have, Are, and Will fall In and Out of Love in a virtual environment. it's a Virtual world, but it's surprising How real the feelings can be. I was shocked with myself the first time i fell in love On Line. i was always one of those who thought the whole idea was silly, But there i was anxiously awaiting the next time i would see her. I felt all the emotions too. Desire, longing, Sorrow, Lonliness, and i REALLY felt the Pain of Loss when it was finally over. I felt Ill, I lost sleep, and i also Cried. That was the First time. There have been a few since then, the Longest is over five years now, and i wouldn't Miss a single Bittersweet moment of any of them. Just like my RL loves (I'm Married, coming on two years now), I grow and learn a little more each time, and i feel Richer for having shared something special with someone else even if we Never met Face to face.
If you're going to stay in SL, then you are going to meet more people, and you will probably Fall in love again (If you are fortunate), and All those Good feelings you had will be back, and perhaps you will be hurt again (Like RL there are no real guarantees in relationships). Humans, or most of us anyway, have a stong feeling of Empathy, It's the thing that Allows us to speak to someone else, and develope emotional Bonds. Read study after study and no two Witch doctors can agree to what degree these feelings of affection and Love can Filter into a Virtual environment, But take it from someone who's been there.
It's Real
Just like RL, No regrets, No remorse.
Just Love.

Angel.

Basically SL is just like all forms of communication- what exists depends entirely on what the two people believe exists.

I've been online for a long time. I started roleplaying online in 2000 and I had a wide variety of characters- some like me, some very dissimilar. I think the process of developing another personality for role play really does reflect back on the parts of yourself that you might not have known about yourself- looking back each of my characters was me- but in very different condensations. Some of them fell in love- some of them didn't. Most of the time my characters tended to develop relationships with another player's characters. Strong relationships- we were married more than once (different characters) and had a child together once. We were incredibly compatible. At one point we even tried to take it out of the game and exchanged phone numbers and photos- but when it came down to every day real world- he was happy with his girlfriend and I was happy with my boyfriend/fiancee/husband (there were 4 years of roleplaying during which I got married). Outside of the game it was just weird.

To have that kind of relationship requires boundaries though, and the agreement to not cross them. My other half knew about my games and heard about my characters and while I won't say he enjoyed the thought that I was roleplaying other relationships he trusted me to know where the game ended and who was waiting for me when the computer turned off.

The two phone calls we had felt wrong- to both of us, and so we went back to playing together and left real life at the door.

So Yes, I'd say it's possible to roleplay love. I think it'd even be easy for someone interested in that to do so in Second Life. Knowing where your partner draws the lines and keeping it comfortable for both of you is vitally important though- and if you have different goals, it can turn out badly.

It comes down to 2 things.

Do you consider your avatar to be you? Do you keep SL in SL or are you willing to bring it into real life. No romance fits into a mold easily =)

I wouldn't dismiss Turbo out of hand, there is certainly a biological component to all of our emotions. To deny that would be like denying there's a chemical response when our tummy is hungry.

To answer the question about having an RL affair. I would say that probably has something to do with opportunity. It's not like you probably go out to singles bars and meet lots of new and interesting people in a married w/children lifestyle. As you said you weren't "looking" for a relationship but it just happened. Well, I'd wager that if you spent as much time in RL going to singles clubs and/or socializing in other ways you might just as well have met someone in RL. Plus there's the factor that many others have pointed out... that it is easier to do things in SL which is "just a game" than you would allow yourself in RL too. Not to mention the fact that your wife probably expects you to cheat on her less when you are sitting in front of a computer than if you were coming home late at night with alcohol on your breath and the scent of perfume on your collar.

Update

She was back, yesterday...

We had a huge argument, but after it was all good.

Today she is not online at all.....

Hmmmm

Wolfie

your not insane hun almost a year ago i met my rl partner on the game it started off as working in a strip club together and we started talking on sl and then on the phone and about 3 months of talking on the phone he came to see me and never went home its very possible to meet your partner through sl , goodluck with her!

*giggles* thanks for the laugh!!

Wolfgang,

How is this affecting your RL? I ask because I am in a very similar situation (same types of SL and RL relationships, ages, outlooks, purposes etc.), just a few days behind you! It started happening to me just a couple days after you first posted this thread. Only difference is, her RL partner does not know and if he tried to uninstall her SL client I think she would casually reboot <i>his ass</i>--she's very strong-willed that way.

I did not come to SL looking for a relationship, and I did not pursue one. It just happened. Two ships bumping together in the night. Bumping and grinding, actually. And long talks afterwards, which surprised me because I found myself caring for her, being interested in her, and wanting to know what she's thinking. What started out as a casual roll in the hay is turning into a full-blown relationship.

Just like my most significant RL relationship--it just happened. And it's developing.

I'm torn. I don't want to jeapordize my very long-term RL relationship, I'm sure you, Wolfgang, can understand why. But I don't want to lose this precious new relationship either. I've thought about this a lot and I've read (and re-read) the posts on this thread, they've been very helpful and insightful. I'm being careful and cautious so far and so has she. But I gotta tell you I've been losing a lot of sleep over this (there's a time difference involved) and spending a lot of time thinking about it.

So there's one thing I'm missing from your story, Wolfgang, is this affecting your RL relationship? I can tell you how it's affecting mine--the aforementioned lack of sleep, a little less time spent in my RL relationship (but not much less, maybe an hour a day overlap), that's about all I've noticed so far.

Good luck to you, Wolfgang. Look me up sometime online if you feel like talking.

-Monk

Ahh well, as my mother used to say....no fool like an old fool..


Best of luck Wolfgang, I suspect youre going to need it.