A new home for the Forum Cartel?

I'm with Bradley. I hate shuffling back and forth. If you guys go, I won't be going with you. Not to be a party pooper or anything, but life is complicated enough without adding another forum. If we just kept the general hilarity to the Forum XVII threads, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

Its interesting how the same conversations repeat themselves with new sets of folks.

Back in the day, there were all sorts of SL Subforums. General, Off Topic, etc. Just like today, there was a forum cartel. Except then, the monkier was "FIC".

While the old General forums were fun, and a lot of friendships were made there - it was constant and perpetual drama.

Moreover, the 'forum cartel' circa 2004 dominated the forums. I remember actually being reluctant to post for my first 6 months, because the atmosphere was so intense. Regardless of whether you were friends or enimies with these people, I'm sure anyone that was around during that time remembers how expertly Ulrika or Enabran could dismember any forum opponent in 5 posts or less.

The original General forum resembled what Second Citizen evolved into, save for intermittent moderation.

When the world was much smaller, Jeska Linden, and later Pathfinder Linden were the mods here. They had other jobs to do, and it eventually became clear that moderating the forum was a full-time job. That begat the resmod program, the success or failure of which is yet another heated forum topic.

Ultimately, the chaos that came out of the old General forum was unmanagable. Near the end of its life, while many (including myself) considered it home, many also considered it a cesspool. The old 'forum cartel' was so dominant, at times - new residents didn't feel very comfortable posting at all. The net result: Linden gave up on the whole mess, and closed the majority of the forums. The outrage from the old 'forum cartel' was tremendous, and most of them either left Second Life, went to Second Citizen, or went to SL Universe.

'Resident Answers' was opened as a result of the Linden Answers forum closing, not general. However, obviously there was a huge void, and over time - Resident Answers turned into something similar to the old General, but with way, way more restrictions.

So - that all said....

I think what played a big part in the original, general forums closure, is the abject dominance of the old forum cartel - so much so, that their peer pressure affected the ability for others to post.

The same cycle is repeating itself today. You guys are carrying the torch now - I'm not suggesting you're stifiling anyone's opinion here, but I'll offer that the original cartel stifiled it *unintentionally*.

From Linden's perspective, I think it only made sense (to them) to force the cartel to go make their own forum, where they're free to dominate. Ultimately, I think you guys are going to get sent the same message. Perhaps you already are.

If there is a way to keep us here and not rankle the Powers that be, I'm all for it. Part of the reason I've never gone to the other boards since I don't like bouncing around the net either.

Wow, Travis, cool history! I feel a little sad that we might be scaring people away from posting legitimate questions. My vote, for what it's worth, is to censor ourselves to joking around in one thread (i.e. Forum Cartel XVI) and try to maintain some sense of openness for real questions. *shrug*

It's cool to hear about the past history of these forums.

I think the cartel that has formed here over the last year is a kind and welcoming lot to all and try to be helpful to all, with the exception of the rare troll and avatars with obvious hidden agendas (like those trying to pimp junk bonds).

I have gained a lot of respect for the wit, intellect and generous nature of many a person on this forum. Grateful for all the connections I've made here, even if most of them have stayed here and not progressed inworld.

Even if another forum takes off for our group, I would still come here to try to be helpful to folks who need questions answered.

:group hug:

I for one kind of like the forum as it is... I don't mind the banter, appreciate the thoughtfulness and I often learn something in the process.

I tried secondcitizen once or twice and the level of discourse in that forum was way below of what I found enjoyable. I don't mind the occasional flame fest, enjoy it even, but I do not want to read a forum that makes me want to kick in doors for the rest of the day.

Having this type of 'discussions' here in RA is also a good way to have a record of all the tired threads that come up once in a while... new people can look up what is considered cheating in SL and why Gor is a fantasy world while Vampires are real, etc. Even those threads have some good and thoughtful stuff in them.

Just my $L2...

.d

I'm just going to moderate myself a little better than I have lately and try to be helpful more and wisecrack less.

I said "crack".

Hmmmmm Helpful more/joke less? Ok, that kills me. Nice knowin you.

But you help me with your jokes, so you are fine to keep doing what you're doing. No joke.

That was helpful. Seems the feeling is to stay here and police ourselves a little better. Works for me.

Travis, I agree with your assessment. It is pretty apparent that a new group has formed but I will also submit that this is a much kinder and gentler group of souls. I think that recent discussions and comments have certainly made everyone aware that there is a perceived "clique" and many of us have begun posting less and being a little more conscious of staying true to the spirit of resident answers. The tone has certainly changed over the past few weeks from where it was last month.

Given human nature, I don't think it is possible for groups to not form, we are social creatures and do tend towards a herd mentality. People form communities out of common bonds; smash one group and another will form somewhere else. The only way to keep groups from forming is to close the forums all together - but that removes a critical means of support for those who can be helped by other residents.

Personally, I think that with continued gentle moderation and some "back on topic, kids" guiding from moderators, this forum can continue to serve its purpose in a comfortable manner. Steering the course with a deft hand is the embodiment of good moderation and learning the art of "troll whispering" is requirement for the gig.

I just don't see the same level of hostility that marked the old General forum and continues on at various other forums and blogs.

There are currently four growing, healthy community forums. (I have links and summaries for them at this thread: /128/c0/212577/1.html)

None of them are as wild-west as Second Citizen was, and none of them are anywhere near as busy- SLU is the most populous, but even so it simply does not get as many posts as SC had over the past year.

I'm currently jumping between 5 SL forums (including this one), and it's a frustrating situation. I come here to answer people's questions, and sometimes to ask questions on my own. I go to all the other ones to keep in touch with my friends. The "community" stuff at this forum does belong elsewhere because LL doesn't want it here. But YET ANOTHER forum is not the answer.

I'm already very sad about the splintering of the SL forum community. We need to nurture the forums that are already established and help them grow to the point where New Posts searches start consistently revealing gems again like this place and Second Citizen both did in their respective heydays.

And to those of you with privacy concerns: All forums ever ask for is an email address for confirmation and optional PM/subscription notifications. If you're uncomfortable with that, there are like 999 places where you can get freebie email addresses. Heck, there are even some places that will give you free one-time-use throwaway addresses just for signing up at web sites. Don't let that keep you away.

It would be nice if we could get a sticky called "The Forum Cartel" which could just go on forever. Perhaps it could be the exception or bending of the rules with the no general discussion policy. (as long as it doesn't turn into a flame fest) I think uniting people in the forums and giving them a place to go in world is a great idea that promotes camaraderie. I have to say though that Resident Answers is not the place for it. The panties I stole from Brenda and put on can't possible be the answer a newbie is looking for....lol. Sadly, all general discussion type sections of the forum have been closed. What say ye Stryfe and fellow Cartellians to making a sticky in the Special Attractions section of the forums for us? I prefer to stay in the official forums of SL.

~Just a thought~

I'm distressed that anyone may get the impression that The Group is about exclusion, or is some toxic, members only clique. If that were true, I'd rather disband it or at least I'd disassociate myself from it. It's the furthest thing Chris and I wanted when we started the group, and something I feared also during the hangout caper. If that is the impression being given off, then we probably should step back and look in the mirror a bit.

It is true that the general tone has of the forums has changed in recent months, and with this, imo, has developed a sense of "cliqueiness" at certain times.

As an avid forum reader since I joined SL, and poster when I feel I might have something of value to add to the topic being discussed, it has reached a point where I now will normally only preuse the 'Technical', 'Building', 'Scripting' and 'Texturing' forums.

For some while it has seemed a shame that 'Resident Answers' appears to have been "taken over". Whats more, I have even taken to looking at the name of the OP and 'Last Post By' and, if that name is one of a certain group of people, not even bother opening the post at all ~ suspecting that their post be will off-topic, a one-line wisecrack or a cliquely personal message to friends.

I only happened to open this post itself because the tooltip over the post title in 'New Posts' hinted at a possibility of a sea-change.

It is also of some concern, that while writing this, I feel some anxiety that this will create some backlash, nasty wisecracks or other defensive action from some individuals of the the clique. Surely it isn't meant to be like this...

I really think so.

Let me put it this way - if you think it's bad now, just remember back to the "stability" of the grid back in 2004. And client updates from hell.

So what do you do - you come to the forums. And instead of getting help, you run across freakish cliques that are ready to rip you a new one, or are so busy tearing each other apart that you wonder: are they ALL like this?

I'm fairly liberal. But even to me, there are such people as losers and freaks, often bordering on mental instability.

While I may support their right to exist, I sure don't want to mingle with them!

* * * * *

I fully support open discussion about limits on free speech, role play, and society.

But when there are a dozen people shouting down a guy who admits he really thinks the grid could do without pretend-child prostitutes, that's when one quietly asks the larger question: what society did I stumble into, and what am I doing here?

There's a lot given a 'wink and a nod' here. Take enslavement of women in Gor. Sure, I believe in a consenting adult's right to do as they wish in an appropriate venue. But that doesn't mean I want to party anywhere such things are considered a cultural norm.

People forget, mainstream cultures are fairly conservative in their own ways, and *not* San Franscisco liberal. And while I'm far more liberal than not, I have to recognise that a HUGE demographic has run screaming once they got a whiff of the forums.

Not quite, but nearly half of the United States citizenship voted for George Bush. Twice. Yet just find out if nearly half of US citizens on forums here would dare admit they voted for him.

And no I didn't vote for G.B., but either these people are largely intimidated or simply driven off in the first place. However you feel about politics, this isn't what I'd call a friendly, inclusive environment.

* * * * *

I'm going to mention a name in a positive way here, which is quite alright if you check up. I have a *LOT* of respect for Lewis Nerd. Why do I? Not because he agrees with me - rarely do we ever agree. He is, if I may risk a characterisation, a devout Christian.

But he's one of the *few* that has held up to the repeated insults that I am *sure* have driven off other people with similar views and values. People who aren't bad people - just different from the extremely permissive, anything goes value of the forums and grid.

Realise every time someone mentions hot buttered panties, they are putting that out in front of *everybody* - and if you were in a crowd of people without anonymity, would you do that? Something to think about.

After the Welcome Area experience and the Sandbox experience, it really *does* take a long while to figure out that most people on the grid are decent.

Adding the Forum experience with a horde of ravenous miscreants on top of that, and yeah, I think a *lot* of people threw in the towel once they saw the old forums.

It would be easy to say good riddance, but I have a sense we shall never fully realise what we have lost.

A sticky would be a great idea, somewhere. At least then if we went too far in RA it could be moved. To be truthful, I never really liked the Cartel part of the Group name. It denotes, at least to me, something sinister, but I guess we are stuck with it.

Of the ideas floated so far, I like the ones with either a single cartel thread, or finding out from Strife if we can co-opt an existing group. I have visited some of the new forums, and won't be going to any of them if the cartel moves. I just don't have time to track more than one forum, and prefer to be where noobs come with their questions. But I'll understand if folks need more room to be goofy

I wouldn't say it's sinister, but to me it does have an 'exclusive' ring to it. I've never been terribly wild about the name for that reason, tho I like the group.

Similarly, not particularly crazy about the "Pie Thrower" moniker. It would be nice if some of the more serious members of the forum felt comfortable joining. I was more interested in a simple title like "SL Forum Denizen". So it goes.

Hi everyone.

I'm the moderator/co-owner of SecondSurvivor (in my alt as Coyote Momiji).

If you'd like, I can very easily set up a subforum there. You are all, of course, very welcome.

http://secondsurvivor.com

How about the thinkers group? no ones posted there for 3 months.

And some of us think.

Or the Bad girls VIP - no one has posted for a year - I guess they have been good girls lately.

Thanks so much for the offer, Coyote. From the looks of the discussion, it does not look like this herd of cats will be heading over at this time. But I personally love SecondSurvivor so far and have made it my second home.

You won't get any of that from me, just a sincere wish that you start frequenting this forum more often.

<3

I quite understand. I hope that y'all can find a place here that will allow unfettered posting.

If not, the offer is on the table in perpetuity. Fatz and I are perfectly happy to house everyone.

You seem to be making us responsible for your reaction, which just isn't fair. People who wish to join in with the silliness are welcomed, those with questions are answered to the best of our abilities, and the only ones we ever 'go after' are obvious trolls...even then, I don't think we're excessively harsh the vast majority of the time. Do we argue sometimes? Sure, but so does any diverse group. GROUP, not clique.

You have an opinion and you're entitled to express it, but please don't assign us to the roles of 'bad guys,' just because we're not quite your cup of tea.

In regards to moving: I'd rather not. I like being able to babble about pies on one thread and then jump to a serious one to answer a question. My brain tends to run on tangents, so it suits me.

All the previous observations made are very valid, and a bit eye opening, at least to me. Personall, when I came here the forum seemed stuffy, and overly serious. I 've always taken life in a flippant way, probably too much way, and my posting style reflects that. I probably has caused things to swing too far the other way, I do regret that. I can't change my nature, but I can try to be a little more conscious of what I say and where I say it. I won't be the cause of someone staying away from here.