Ejecting an intruder from my land

By Second Life design choices and technology, i have no private area. By coming in the game, I accept the design choices made by the creator. Lack of privacy is the counterpart of the augmented capabilities the game gives me.

Second Life frees us, avatars, of many things humans are depending on. In a world where i do not need a vehicle to move, i don't want to loose any time to get, buy or operate a vehicle (except for the fun of simulating a vehicle). I a world where i don't need money, i don't want the stress to get money (except for the fun of simulating richness).

If someone is looking in my closebox with his camera, I don't care. The presence of his/her avatar does not disturb the reality i've created here. I won't ask him to limit his capabilities. This, in my opinion, would be a violation of his avatars' rights.

My avatar is not me. My avatar is an entity which behaves very differently from me, EXCEPT for the human-to-human interaction part, which is only a small part of the game and where RL social rules applies. I'm not in SL to replicate RL but to live an entirely different, richer experience.

So, there is a fundamental misunderstanding between two categories of players, those living as electronic agents in an electronic world, and those living in a replica of real life. We have to deal with that.

I don't mean this hateful or bad... But on the moment I would realize that my Second Life is an richer experience as my First/Real Life... then I would leave SL and work very hard on my Real Life.

Jo.

Excellent point.

^5

I have noticed that just recently new avatars tend to walk right through houses with no regard for privacy. I have even had a self-confessed "peeping tom" watch me change (I did not see him) and then he flew off laughing. I may be a billion pixils but I have some modicum of correct behaviour and think that there is too much "Hey I can do what I want here" starting to begin. As a helper on SL I have even had to ask people not to "have avatar sex" at infohubs. I dont think people should be bonking each other in bus stations so I think some basic rules should apply here. We are entitled to some privacy in our own homes - real or SL.

Well, my second life really is a richer experience than my first life. I don't have a first life. I never leave my apartment. In SL I can at least to some degree interact with others. However, even here I feel uncomfortable with too many people around, and being watched by strangers in private situations makes me very nervous. When I think too much about the fact that the map may show no one in close proximity, but everyone could stand or hover far away and just move their camera through my walls, I sometimes have to log off.


I'd ask everyone to behave just as they would do in RL, when it comes to respecting people's privacy. Humans (at least humans who grew up in my social environment) have a sense for privacy and decency that we can't get rid of that easily, even in a virtual world; why else would it be forbidden to run around naked in a PG area? Of course, not every etiquette is outlined in the TOS, just as not every social rule is outlined in RL laws. There's no law against standing at someone's garden fence and staring through their windows for hours on end. There's also no law against walking into a restaurant wearing your underpants on your head, sitting down at a table and vociferously chewing your dinner with a wide open mouth, throwing in a belch now and then. One just doesn't do it, otherwise one has to learn that the house rules start where the governmental laws end.

LL don't want to deal with every trifle and leave a good part of governance to their land-owning residents. Two main reasons to earn land: gaining privacy and setting up own community standards and rules. If you move your camera onto someone's land, you have effectively entered it. You can interact with every object from the distance, so you're physically there and have to respect their rules (if you don't know the rules that apply at the place you entered, better behave in a way that couldn't possibly offend anyone). When you trick your camera through someone's walls (there's no simple point-and-click function to do so, for a reason), it's basically breaking and entering. The house owner doesn't want you to see him, otherwise he wouldn't sit behind walls. You could as well drop a listener there while you're at it, to eavesdrop on their chat. Or sit on one of the poseballs to get your avatar through locked doors. Just additional augmented capabilities in this virtual world, just like tricking the camera behind solid walls, and just as well impolite, rude and usually against the residential laws set up by the land owner.

My avatar is me. Who else could she be? When I answer my phone, that's me as well, even if my chat partner can't see me in person but only hears my voice. My avatar is no NPC or AI, it's my representation in SL, as well as my voice represents me on the phone. I type instead of talking, just another communication form (that may change soon, once voice chat is implemented). I don't expect anyone to eavesdrop on my phone calls, and I don't expect to be watched behind the walls of my SL residence.

Almost everything in SL is human-to-human interaction. As soon as you watch someone, you're socially interacting. You say it yourself, RL social rules apply as soon as it comes to social interaction with fellow residents. When I ask others to respect me as a human being with a certain need for privacy, I don't limit them. They limit my capabilities if they don't respect my privacy, not the other way round. They don't have any guaranteed right to access my land in any form, I could just access-restrict it or ban them for any arbitrary reason.

I think we have some difficulties to understand one another. Behind the avatar ("agent" is a human that I respect as I would in RL. But an avatar is not a human.

My avatar "thinks", "behaves", "reacts", "talks" for a large part the same as me, human, does in real life. But why would I come into SL if that was to be just a human? I am already.

Another part of me in SL is thinking, behaving, reacting not like a human but as an electronic, de-materialized entity.

I have an example in mind. Land. What is "land" in SL? A surface of terrain? Of course not. I've never seen SL land as a surface of terrain. Land is computing resources. So, what's the point to put barriers around computing resources? Preserving a fair part of them for my game? Impossible. The most valuable computer resources is script execution, and I have NO WAY to preserve a fair amount of scripting resource for my own game. Technically impossible. My neighbours can suck all the resources of the sim if they want. So, barriers are meaningless because "land" is not land.

The problem we have is that human behaviour conflicts with avatar behaviour. The human wants barriers. The avatar knows barriers are useless (and painful). In this exemple, I choose to be an avatar. I think, act, with the knowledge that barriers are useless. Here, i don't behave like a human. But if my neighbour plays as a human, of course we have a problem.

Well... My avatar is me... She acts and reacts as me. Can be happy and hurted as me.

I am here in SL to meet people. To communicate, as I would do in RL.

I play Second Life and Everquest because my partner works mostly in the evenings and I during daytime. So after the very important moment of dinner on a normal day, I go do the things that also very important (taking care of my horses, walking the dogs, reading a book, maybe some work at home) and after that and my mood is to it, I play SL or Everquest.

In Everquest I RP... there I am someone else... a drow... a half elf or what...

But in SL I am me and not much more then that... Okay, I confess! My avatar has bigger breasts then me (I am not that well builded on that matter) and she is blond (and I am RL an bruynette). But apart from that she is me. Nothing more, nothing less.

And from that point of view, I expect people to treat me in the same way... as it was me. And except the same values that come to that... as respecting my privacy, even when it is not by rules enforced.

And oh yes, on the moment I realise that SL or Everquest is an richer experience then my RL... or that that one of those two have a bad infleuence on my RL, then I can assure you that the accounts will be cancelled.

Jo.

Coming from a human being on both sides - you have lost the modicum of respect I give everyone new. You are worth nothing more to me than a bag of garbage, rl or sl. Because that bag of garbage has more respect from me than you do. At least its doing something worthwhile.

Consider yourself banned at my home and anywhere else I may own or rent in the future.

I'm sorry to see the discussion turning this way. SL is tolerance. I've myself translated the Community Standards in a foreign language for newcommers. SL is no discrimination for gender, race, religion, language, education... No harassment and no assault. SL is also no discrimination for Second Lifestyle. You choose to live as a human. This is not my game but I respect your choice. I choose to live as a de-materialized entity, i think my game desserve as much respect as yours.

The problem i've pointed is complex and i know that it may hurts some. Please, understand that it is not my behaviour which hurts you (if so, I apologize) but the very nature of a metaverse. Some want to see it like a chat, or a conferencing system. It can be a conferencing system, but it is more than a conferencing system. This is what i'm exploring, and please, don't blame me for exploring the potential of metaverses.

Hi Morven. I am here to experiment the potential of a virtual 3D universe, with active objects as an incarnation of «The Internet of Things». I'm here to build things that does not exist in real life, and things that cannot exist due to the constraints of the material universe. I'm here to experiment new kinds of interactions.

In many ways, Second Life had made a (virtual) reality of what was sci-fi dreams twenty years ago. SL rez the dream. And yes, in that sense, the experience of "living" here ("being" into this virtual universe) is a richer experience than IRL.

In the process, of course I meet people, lots of people, and communicate. But with a really too narrow-bandwith medium (one-line chats) to have a quality interaction. On that peculiar point, and compared to textual-, audio- or video-conferencing i have IRL, i won't pretend that my Second Life experience is richer.

I probably shouldn't get into this at this late date, but since I was (am) considering banning you myself based on this thread, I might as well point out why.

Jeff, I understand what you're saying and I entirely agree with the general coolness of being able to explore a virtual existence that way. But. If you do indeed behave the way you have described here, you are not respecting the choices of other people. It is not respect when you choose to do things that you know others will find hurtful or offensive. Respecting their choices would mean using your dematerialized-entity powers only around those you knew didn't mind.

And, yes, it is indeed your behavior that hurts them. SL avatars are not AIs. Your avatar does not think for itself and it doesn't control its own camera. You make the choices and you control the camera, and it's you behaving in hurtful ways. Similarly, it's usually not the presence of the particular pixels that make up an avatar that people find intrusive -- it's the sentience and awareness behind it, and that's you regardless of whether you're using an avatar or a camera. Your own logic does not support making a distinction between camera behavior and avatar behavior.

I don't think anyone in SL should expect their privacy to be inviolate. Even in RL, anyone who's ever lived somewhere with a driveway has probably had some stranger's car pull in to turn around. It's a momentary distraction, sometimes inconvenient when you get up to see who's arrived, and sometimes it happens at really really bad times. But most people just shrug and forget about it; only psychos pull out the shotguns. If someone really doesn't want other people pulling up, it's their responsibility to buy a security gate or post no-trespassing signs or what-not, just as it's my responsibility, if I don't want to be seen undressing, to make sure that my windows are properly covered.

But I do think we have the right to expect reasonable privacy -- that people will do their best to minimize accidental intrusions and eliminate intentional ones. The question then becomes "what counts as an intrusion?"

I don't mind if people fly over my land or even land on it, when I'm not around; my sim is new and doesn't have any roadways or commons, so I think it's only polite of landowners to allow unrestricted access. A few days ago someone flew over, at rather low altitude, while I was there building, and even then I didn't think much about it -- until he flew right down into the large tube I was working on, without so much as a hello. Then I gave him the hairy eyeball. (*suddenly wonders if I can build a Hairy Eyeball prim*) Yesterday, a sim-about-to-crash glitch grabbed my camera and zoomed me in on a neighbor's conversation with friends. Things happen *shrug* -- but as soon as I regained control of the camera, I zoomed back out again, because in my world, eavesdropping is rude. I have an open sky platform for building, with just a decorative guardrail, and I don't in the least mind if people land there. If I minded, I'd put up signs or enclose it with a wall. When I build at ground level, it will have walls, and I do expect people to respect them. Landing on open-access greenspace outside my home is not the same thing as injecting your presence -- whether avatar or camera -- into my home; if it was, I wouldn't bother using walls at all.

You say a locked door isn't a sign if you don't know it's locked, which implies you agree it's a sign if you do know it's locked. I'd say the presence of a wall is itself a pretty clear sign.

I totally agree with Rihanna, although I wouldn't consider to ban anyone before they did something offending in practise, not in theory only. I'd like to add:

I understand that quite well. I also roleplay to some degree, choose an appearance that differs from my human self, and I enjoy having abilities that my RL persona doesn't have, like flying or teleporting. Every new technology enhances our abilities. Using a phone, I'm able to project my voice over thousands of miles. But it's still me who speaks there, not a disembodied entity free from all responsibility for the things I say.

Some technologies like email even allow me to hide my identity, but I'm still responsible for my actions and could possibly violate laws as well as widely accepted social standards. In the end, whatever I do, I can be reduced to the human being behind the keyboard and held responsible for my actions. That's what your attitude is about, isn't it? Being free of all RL limitations and responsibilities, justifying your actions by stating that if you're able to do something you should be allowed to do it, no matter if it violates any etiquette. In every public place, be it real or virtual, you're expected to respect at least the most fundamental rules needed to ensure civilized social interaction.

There we have the same attitude again. Digital data is exactly what it represents, with all the legal consequences. An ebook is the same as a real book printed on paper; I'm not allowed to copy it and expected to pay in order to read it. A digital song is a piece of artwork, same as a "real" song performed on a stage. It doesn't turn to mere data when you convert it to zeros and ones, you still have to treat and respect it exactly like the real thing. Virtual land and assets in SL are nothing different.

Of course, your neighbours would show the same lack of respect for your property if they use up all the sim resources, and it's against the TOS to do so intentionally. You gave a great example why we need some rules and standards, even in a virtual environment.

Barriers in SL are pretty much useless, but that doesn't mean you don't have to respect them. A RL house door is useless as well, everyone can easily break it down, or climb through an open window when the inhabitant airs the room. Even if a house door is unlocked, I'd still be trespassing if I just walk in, unless it's obvious that the building is open for public access. My landlord has a key for my apartment door, but I could sue him for unauthorized intrusion if he makes use of this key without my invitation and knowledge. Again, the technical possibility doesn't mean you're allowed to do it.

If you see a conflict between behaviour that is deemed acceptable for human cohabitation and the way you would like to behave, you will indeed cause and experience a lot of conflicts on the grid.

I agree so much with the statement above (and with the other things Rihanna said too). My walls are a sign indeed. And mostly people are, when they come to me and ask me, more then welcome between those walls.
It is the "I do this because I can" that gives me a feeling of unease.


Well, my IRL communicates are rich too. It starts here with my partner and our youngster (she is 18... wooahhh, lots of communications ).

I meet almost daily with customers through out the country. And some of those customers are very nice to do business with. Some not, but even that is communications.

I meet many people when I when I work with my horses or dogs.

And so there are more things to mention

But SL, with its "simple means" adds nice to that... Where can I go so easy dancing with my friend from Chigaco? Or go shopping with my friend from Berlin and chat for hours about the fashion that we see (and yes, those conversations can become rather silly). Or sit with someone from Asia in The Lost Gardens of Apollo and talk about whatever comes to mind and enjoy a sunset in that awesome place?

A great add I would say

Morwen.

An interesting and thought provoking post Jeff.

Behaviour; whilst I cannot argue your point as regards physical behavior i.e. your avatar can fly, 'see' through walls, change appearance et al, I think the major question of social behaviour is what is being questioned here.
People put up walls for a reason, whether in reality or SL. Similarly doors and locks and curtains.
You say you respect the human operating the other avatar .... why not the human who built the walls, locked the doors and drew the curtains?

No, the point is you do not respect my choice. That is why you are banned. It -is- your behavior that does the disrespect.

In putting your views as such, in practice, you show no respect for mine, thus get no respect, and deserve no respect. You are no better than a casino hogging sim resources or any other peeping tom.

Your 'game' is not welcome on land I rent or own. period.

Ever since the introduction of P2P teleporting..............its been a nightmare. Some times i wish they never brought it to the game. Yes you can protect yourself from oterh on person islands. But then again if them a chance and they will find away to get in. its not a answer to the problem. Only a bandaid.

My post was not meant to be provoking. But I realize it may have been, accounting that i have potentially banned by two contributors. Again, i apologize if i have hurted you.

All is around symbols and meaning. Different meanings for different persons. When you say "a wall is a sign", please understand that *my* SL walls are not a sign, they are a representation of a wall in what is to me an architectural sketch. It is purely decorative. While writing this, i remember than i have built a lot in SL, public places, school, library, data center, but never a wall because, *for me*, they have no function in SL (at least, not the function of a real wall) and make avatar's displacements more difficult. I've build only open places, with the exception of my close box which purpose is to protect others againt content possibly offensive to them.

Of course, if *your* wall means the same as a real wall, I will not impose my definition on you and respect yours. The question is: how do I know your meaning of a SL wall? And this is not provocative, this is really a difference between two interpretations of virtual objects which are both equally respectable. Many designers have created secret rooms just for the enjoyment of discovering them. Svarga has a secret room. Linden places have secret rooms.

So Rihanna, no, and i'm sorry to say that, and i don't think i'm offensive when i say that, the presence of a wall is not a clear sign until i know what meaning you intend to confer to a virtual wall.

You are all right when you say we need standards beyond SL's one. SL's standards does not state what a wall is. A wall may be decorative. A wall may be a sign of no trepassing. A wall may be here just for the fun to breaking inside, as in the case of secret rooms. And a resident should not be blamed or banned because he/she thinks a virtual wall is not a real wall, as long as he/she acknowledge that for others, it can be.

Thought-provoking Jeff .. not quite as bad as plain provoking

I do see your point .. but the door is the key element - pun erm appropriate really!

I allow visitors to my SL house. I keep shutters and blinds closed but the door unlocked. People are welcome in the same way I've found others homes unlocked. I assume from this they also allow visitors as I feel it a tribute to their inventiveness and resources and hell .. just the pure fun of it!
But I'm always careful to keep an eye on the mini-map. If occupied, I will only enter if door is open, if not, ring or leave. This, I do in SL and would never dream of just exploring someone else's home in RL. It's the people, yes behind the avatars, whom require the privacy, who need the consideration and courtesy of my not simply slinging my camera through their wall.
If empty, then I consider it fair game as I think you do.

But the bottom line is even though they're only a pile of pixels, they are people behind the avatars and frankly, you just can't tell how they're going to react to an interruption.

Svarga eh? shall have to check that out!

Unless the name of the piece of wall is 'secret entrance' or appears as a doorway, open section, floating curtain etc.., its a 'real' wall. Thats a pretty -standard- definition.

Exactly. A wall is usually meant to keep someone from walking through or seeing through.

If there's a door in the wall, it's usually the entrance for the owner of the place and invited guests only, as long as there's no visible sign that the building is a shop, a club or another public place. I'd never enter uninvited, even if the door is unlocked.
It depends on the environment of course; some themed sims are clearly meant as a large entertainment park, in that case only locked doors need to be respected (could be the private office of the sim owner).

As Banking Laws said, "a wall is a wall", no need to think about the meaning it could have for whomever built it.

I think that common sense should rule here. I'm saying nothing new, but if a wall looks like it belongs to a private property, then it's not ok to trespass it. Well, the owner may not mind at all if I do enter his/her property, no matter if him/her is online, but I do not know.

So, my common sense tells me to not enter what looks like as a private property.

A few days ago me and a friend were travelling in open sea (I believe it was at least ) when we spotted a nice island. There was a dock, a nice house and a small park. The house looked wonderful from the outside, and I would have liked to see the inside. Nobody but me and my friend was around, so we did not even attempt to enter the house. This was our common sense.

We took a short walk on the park, then we left. Finding someone at home, we would have asked to take a look, if possible, at the house.

Just my 2 cents, though I believe to be offtopic as of now!

Make that three.

Aside from the plethora of opinions about the concept of privacy in SL, I've been fascinated by the various reactions to the significance of my banning an AV from my property. For some, this seems to be a very severe penalty, whereas I just considered it a prudent afterthought.

If I were a very social person, with lots of visitors and tourist foot traffic nearby, then perhaps the notion of banning someone from that social environment would have greater weight in my mind. But I'm not that social -- only a few AVs have been invited to my house -- and I'm halfway up a cliff in an area that has no foot traffic. The only way to get to my house is to fly there, and the only AVs that fly by are usually just looking at other similarly inaccessible land that is for sale or rent.

So my banning of the intruder was just to make sure he didn't wander back. I was rather surprised -- but intrigued -- by the diverse reactions to that part of the incident. SL never fails to inform and reveal fascinating insights into human perceptions.

Yes, Svarga. And the Linden clock. And the planetarium in Dalton (now gone). And the Factory (gone also). And many others. I could hand you out a listing of secret places in SL, or places you can't get in without using camera and Sit. Because many players come into SL with gaming in mind. They build for the pleasure of hiding secrets and for others to discover them, or just for sharing their dreams with others. Call them sharers if you want. I'm a sharer. That is my culture, inherited from the internet.

We have different cultures. SL is about mixing cultures, and we may have some difficulties doing so. But we are here to learn to live together. That's why i'm still in this discussion which was a little rude for me. I've never banned and will never ban somone from my land, except for griefing as defined in the Community Standards. Never erect "No Entry" lines or disable flying. That's my choice. Again, i understand that you may think and act differently.

A resident enters one of my constructions by walking, sitting, flying, exploring with his camera... no problem. My builds are here for that. If don't want not to be disturbed, i go scripting underwater where, surprisingly, i'm never disturbed. If I want to read my IMs, i go to a Linden Place which are mostly opened-air. If i want to talk with friends, i choose a empty nice place and rez a multi-chair from my inventory. We sit and talk, enjoying each time a different place. That's the freedom of being de-materialized.

I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest. I'm relatively new to SL - only around 4 weeks I think - but I very much enjoy it and was quick to buy land. My two favorite things in SL are building and scripting. I've deleted and rebuilt my home 4 or 5 times now, always trying new and different designs.

My homes have all had walls made of 'glass', fully see-through. Although for privacy now and then, they are scripted so they can easily become opaque. When I showed this to a friend, she suggested I could make them see-through from inside and opaque from outside, so I could always see out and nobody could ever see in. This is actually completely opposite to me.

I *know* people can camera-control in through walls. So transparent or opaque is immaterial. When I want 'privacy' for my avatar, it's actually more important to me that I can't see out. I don't care if someone is standing or floating 10 or 20 meters away looking in with their camera. As long as I can't see them, they aren't disturbing me.

What does bother me is when someone basicaly goes out of their way to, well, bother me. Recently I was working on some scripts, so my avatar was at home, sitting still and doing nothing while I was editing and testing scripts. I was startled and disturbed by a wolf-whistle, from someone who had wandered into my home and this was their idea of a polite pickup line. Once I realized what had happened I teleported him home. Since then, when I want privacy, I now also make sure my doors are 'locked' and have made an 'orb' that can ask people to leave if I want.

I have not yet felt the need to ban anyone and I hope I never do. I think the only time I would do that is if someone were griefing me.

Anyhow I guess what I'm trying to say is, from a privacy vs go-anywhere point of view, to me privacy is in the 'eye of the beholder'... when I want privacy if I can't see you / don't know you're there then you're not intruding.

I don't know if I've been able to convey what I mean... I hope so.

-Atashi