theif application on the lose
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-14-2006 10:22
From: John Horner Giving a password to a third party application (which may possibly be linked to a credit card if a newly created alt (legaly) of an existing avatar is not only stupid as you leave yourself open to online fraud of which you would have no recompense but...
It is also a breech of Lindens TOS I don't believe that is the case. I've given my password to many third-party applications... in fact I couldn't post to this forum without giving my password to a third-party application! It's called a web browser. OH NOES! I've given my password to a third-party *open source* application!
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Kalel Venkman
Citizen
Join date: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 587
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11-14-2006 10:37
From: Yumi Murakami This is a different category. This isn't someone distributing offending materials (and you're right, LL can't legally act on those, because it's not their copyright that's being broken).
But this is someone distributing a means of breaking copy protection. That act, in itself, is illegal under the DMCA - it doesn't need evidence that a copyright has actually been broken using it (which is a bit controversial, but there it is). I think LL could act on this, on the grounds it has harmed them by damaging their platform. Even if LL doesn't, any resident could, although they'd need to go through an awkward trail of subpoenas. You're quite right - they could act on this if they felt the threat was great enough, from a technical standpoint. However, considering that Lindens are technically not a currency (because LL does not guarantee any particular value or worth to them, and they are used as game tokens to be exchanged for play value and not real goods) there is little upon which to base an action of sufficient magnitude to involve the self-interest of Linden Labs. The whole thing is a pretty gray area when you start wandering in that direction, so I wouldn't expect LL to become too terribly invested in action of that type. With respect to the DMCA making it illegal to sell materials or devices usable to circumvent copy protection, Sony's CD copy protection scheme last year was discovered to be easily circumvented by the use of a Sharpie permanent marker on the first, inner track on a CD. A quick dot with a Sharpie, and the copy protection scheme was circumvented. Also, it depended on software that wouldn't load if you either turned off auto-execution of CD's on mounting them in Windows, or holding down the space bar when you put the CD in the tray and closed it. Under the DMCA, therefore, any store selling Sharpies, keyboards or the Microsoft Windows operating system would be in violation of the DMCA. Attempts to enforce the DMCA under those rules thus far have not passed the "giggle" test and have produced no significant precedent, so I wouldn't expect any respite from that quarter.
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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11-14-2006 10:40
From: Kalel Venkman However, considering that Lindens are technically not a currency (because LL does not guarantee any particular value or worth to them, and they are used as game tokens to be exchanged for play value and not real goods) there is little upon which to base an action of sufficient magnitude to involve the self-interest of Linden Labs.
Um, LL don't recieve L$ right now. If people are afraid of their IP being copied, they won't put it on SL. If they aren't going to put their IP on SL, they don't need land for it. If they don't need land, they don't pay tier. And that's where LL's self-interest lies.
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Wraith Peart
Registered User
Join date: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 9
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11-14-2006 10:45
has anybody but me noticed that both thief and loose are spelled wrong in the title of this thread?  On a more serious note: I don't think that a general pullout of SL land owners will happen. People who have invested thousands of dollars in land aren't just going to up and leave. At best, they'd sell to someone else - who will still pay tier.
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Kalel Venkman
Citizen
Join date: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 587
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11-14-2006 10:56
From: Yumi Murakami Um, LL don't recieve L$ right now. If people are afraid of their IP being copied, they won't put it on SL. If they aren't going to put their IP on SL, they don't need land for it. If they don't need land, they don't pay tier. And that's where LL's self-interest lies. Point well taken. However, many use their land to create things for themselves, and not just for sale - so while there is certainly some incentive, there is probably more incentive for LL simply to come up with some sort of patch that makes what CopyBot does impossible or impractical than to invoke the DMCA.
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Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
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11-14-2006 11:15
I don't care how it's sugar coated or what it's good uses are.
The fact is, it CAN and IS being used maliciously. It's like a gun shop selling to a convicted murderer, that they know has committed murders. The gun shop didn't pull the trigger, but they did give them the tool to do it, knowing it could be used that way.
It's retarded. And for LL to openly back it is ridiculous. And to all you shouting about the good uses, why are you defending something that LL should have already had in place? (Backing up inventories.) If LL had done this a long time ago, this product would have no good use anyways.
No matter how you slice it, this is LL's fault. For not having things in place to stop it, for not having the tools in place to do what this does for it's 'good' uses, for not stopping them from distributing it against their own ToS because it's 'good' uses are something they don't have and this just means they have to work less on it.
And think about it, we are all up in arms over this, effectively detracting from all the failures right now in the grid.. (god the lag), and the lack of options and tools to do what's needed.
Nice little distraction, but I don't buy it.
And for you guys out there saying, if you don't like it, leave SL... LOTS of people here have put their heart and soul into SL based on what LL told them when they came in. Many people love this game. It's like protecting our little brother or sister. You love it, you work at it, you do everything you want in it, you don't want someone destroying it.
LOTS of people here were very successful in SL, whether it be through selling, or just working... we've put REAL money into this game. If you don't like listening to us voice our displeasure... YOU leave, because you obviously don't care about SL the way the people who have contributed to it's goodness do.
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Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
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11-14-2006 11:46
From: GeForce Go There are disclaimers and warning for buyers. This is to be put to good use. If you think your creations are stolen file a DMCA report. With clothing there's no way to tell if the copy someone else is wearing is legitimate or not.
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Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
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11-14-2006 11:48
From: Osprey Therian With clothing there's no way to tell if the copy someone else is wearing is legitimate or not. Add to that... since it copies the item and makes the copier 'recreate' the prims, you can't even prove it was yours. And since LL doesn't give us infinite records (30 days isn't it), it's a little late to start downloading all your statements.
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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11-14-2006 13:07
From: Wraith Peart has anybody but me noticed that both thief and loose are spelled wrong in the title of this thread?
Yeah i was rushing and pissed off. So? 
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GeForce Go
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 26
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11-14-2006 13:12
From: Osprey Therian With clothing there's no way to tell if the copy someone else is wearing is legitimate or not. This program does not KEEP the clothing on the bot. Once relogged or in appearance mode, they revert back to the original. Why pass the blame of what GLintercept does onto other things?
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Dr Tardis
Registered User
Join date: 3 Nov 2005
Posts: 426
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11-14-2006 13:18
I find myself wondering something:
If you weren't rushed and pissed off, and you'd researched a little more before posting this, you might have noticed something: The program does not upload other people's outfits as inventory. They only show up on the avatar while it's near someone else. The program also does not copy prim-based objects unless they're worn as an attachment. So you can't walk up to a build and steal it. In fact, I don't believe it's possible to steal clothing items directly. At best, you could steal the baked textures and create an identical copy of the avatar's appearance: skin, clothing, and hair. The program is a debug tool and rather limited in usefulness. If everyone would just calm down and look at the reality of what's happened here, they wouldn't be talking about closing their stores and leaving SL for good.
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Don't make me get all Dr Tardis on you. -- Conan Godwin
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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11-14-2006 13:31
From: Dr Tardis I find myself wondering something:
If you weren't rushed and pissed off, and you'd researched a little more before posting this, I was rushing and upset at a post/blog i read, i wrote this for INFORMATION on the software. i asked a QUESTION, a general question, i did not make a -statement- about this program in my initial post infact, everyone of my questions about copybot in this thead have went unanswered. From: someone
you might have noticed something: The program does not upload other people's outfits as inventory. They only show up on the avatar while it's near someone else.
Ok, this is something I asked early on in the thread. I saw the video on youtube, i saw the avatar changing. i saw some photos of "clones"- my question was, if someone stands next to me they can look exactly like me- do they now own the shape? can they distribute it? do they now own the clothes? can they distribute it? According to your post, they cant. Have you tested out this program? But according to everyone ese, it doesnt seem too clear. I have asked several times, and got no answer so I just concluded by everything going on- that it must be possible somehow since everyone is freaking. From: someone The program also does not copy prim-based objects unless they're worn as an attachment. So you can't walk up to a build and steal it.
Again, i`m not arguing with you but have you used the program yourself? From: someone In fact, I don't believe it's possible to steal clothing items directly. At best, you could steal the baked textures and create an identical copy of the avatar's appearance: skin, clothing, and hair.
would you be able to upload these as your own? From: someone The program is a debug tool and rather limited in usefulness. If everyone would just calm down and look at the reality of what's happened here, they wouldn't be talking about closing their stores and leaving SL for good.
i understand it was created as a debug tool. But from other`s posts who claim they know about it, they say it copies a prims UUID # and can make an exact replica, full perm version, free for them to distribute. I dont know what to believe but the worst. I guess the only way to find out is to use the program myself, but i dont want anywhere near it. Anyway, id appreciate it if you could answer my questions a little more. ive said before and ill say it again- Im a little confused about what EXACTLY the program does. hence the creation of this thread, I was trying to get some solid facts
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-14-2006 13:38
The threat to clothing isn't copybot, it's glintercept.
I could have ripped off the most darling outfits when I was playing around with that. Honest I could. I didn't, obviously, but not only is the horse out of the barn, it's been makin whoopie in the back 40 for months.
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Lucifer Baphomet
Postmodern Demon
Join date: 8 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,771
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11-14-2006 13:43
Hmmmm From: Lord Sullivan There are a few of us that are ever optimsitic, the thing that irks me is the way it was introduced to SL, LLs need better PR imho and the fact some jerk is selling it when its clearly available for free. Also Hawk Splash posted a note to the blog after testing it out (Quoted Blog Entry below) "hawk Splash Says: November 14th, 2006 at 4:49 am ok ive read all your blog listings comments and stuff and got pretty concernd myself about this thing as im a builder in sl so i decided to go waste 3000 lindens on this thing to put your minds at ease firstly to use the program you have to have an alternate account secondly when you do get online with it and you clone an avatar or object that avatar is wearing it does clone an exact copy of the av i tried this with my alt but the one priority id like to adress here is the fact it does clone all attachments that your wearing it wont take or theif anything thats been made by another user even if it isnt no copy no mod and no transfer because it wont allow the copy of the uuid number of the object you try to copy to be copied from the inventory also the avatars shape height settings and skin are not left in your alts inventory when you log back in to sl with that name you used to be the copy bot all scripted objects that you had on the alt become invalid the scripts are automatically invalid and removed on copying and this also results in the objects being called object yes it does make the persons name the creator but no the objects can not be claimed as that persons because it says unknown creator which is greyed out so your concerns about anyone stealing your work are not neccesary because they can not be used they all become invalid i also tried to copy an object just basic box with a bling script in it gave my alt av my mod rights everything possible i could edit the object on my alt unlink it but the big no no is when going to contents to your suprise those that think they get an exact replica that will work and can be sold think again because all scripts are removed regardless of the settings all objects that are named are called object in the inventory Hair skin and clothing revert back to the hair skin and clothing and shape you originally had on that av to start with the only thing funny about that program is it clones anyones av while on the program but when logged out of the alt and back into sl on that alt yes your minds are thinking OH NO they got my work errrrr stop the tape there because nope they didnt why? because 1 the object they copied is now called object they dont know which is which 2nd the objects scripts are missing so for those of you that wana go wasting money on this program good luck because you aint gona get nowhere trying to copy skins hair and attachments that dont belong to ya so people as a person that has just wasted lindens take my advice you have nothing at all to worry about it doesnt even copy textures lol so thumbs up to you all and bad luck the creator of this program in my words IT SUCKS!!!!!! " So in the words of Hawk Splash as posted "IT SUCKS" I hope more people go & test it themselves to see the results if they are worried. One final point is SL wants to head to an open source 3D web and as in all things change is inevitable and we move with it or die, they (LL) have made some silly choices lately but i see SL as a child and children often make mistakes as they grow and learn. It happened in the late 80s and early 90s as we moved from usenet, AOL, CIS etc. to browsers and the net as we know it now, people said it would be the death of it but im still around having fun in this new enviroment which is a new platform full of teething problems and i always remember to never invest more than i can afford to lose in this new area of communications Ever the optimist Peace 
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Demolaous Discovolante
Registered User
Join date: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 8
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11-14-2006 13:44
From: Jesseaitui Petion Someone needs to hurry and release a game like SL, with better service and better protection Kaneva.com is still in Beta, I wonder what SL plans to do then, when another viable option emerges?
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Allana Dion
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,230
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11-14-2006 13:48
From: GeForce Go It is not my fault if content creators who get their items stolen do not file a DMCA report. They DO and have worked. As I said, this tool can be used for good or bad. People who use it for the bad part, WILL be punished. So then what will your punishment be?
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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11-14-2006 13:48
From: Demolaous Discovolante Kaneva.com is still in Beta, I wonder what SL plans to do then, when another viable option emerges? Interesting ill go check it out. I checked outa few already and was not satisfied. *edit* OH that, looks good but I could not figure it out lol Bookmarking it. Thanks Lucifer/Lord Sullivan, im going to look more into this program.
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Dr Tardis
Registered User
Join date: 3 Nov 2005
Posts: 426
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11-14-2006 13:52
There's another thread here where someone else discusses his experience with the program. I'm basing my comments on what I already know SL does and doesn't do, and first hand reports from a couple of people. From: Jesseaitui Petion Ok, this is something I asked early on in the thread. I saw the video on youtube, i saw the avatar changing. i saw some photos of "clones"- my question was, if someone stands next to me they can look exactly like me- do they now own the shape? can they distribute it? do they now own the clothes? can they distribute it? In fact, the clothing and shape are not saved. They are put on the avatar but are not saved to inventory. Attachments are created and worn on the avatar and are saved to inventory when replaced by other attachments. When they come off, they're named "object", and the creator tag is blank. From: someone I just concluded by everything going on- that it must be possible somehow since everyone is freaking. That's the problem. People are talking about pulling up stakes and leaving. People are jumping to all sorts of conclusions, most of them wrong. From: someone Im a little confused about what EXACTLY the program does. hence the creation of this thread, I was trying to get some solid facts As far as I know, that's the current state of things: the shape of attachments is copied, and that's it. New textures aren't made, and avatars themselves are not saved. That's not to say that the rest isn't possible, and there is absolutely no technical fix if someone does decide to replicate an entire sim: in theory, anything the client can see can be copied if you take the time to do it. The real fix for this won't be software; it'll be people finding a way to cope with the situation and the Lindens finding a way to register content and expedite removal of violating content.
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Don't make me get all Dr Tardis on you. -- Conan Godwin
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Lucifer Baphomet
Postmodern Demon
Join date: 8 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,771
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11-14-2006 14:08
Looks like hawksplash was just technically incompetent.. From: Tiberious Neruda Well, here we are... another big change is upon us, and the masses are screaming again. This time, it's not exactly LL that's at the heart of the issue, though they certainly seem to be going along with it. That said, here's the bottom line, right upfront: If all you sell in SL is piles of prims and textures, fear CopyBot.
However, if you have other things about your products, this, too, shall pass. A Detailed Look: So, I finally unearth some info on CopyBot with my Google shovel, and as luck would have it, one of the bots is online. I IMed the bot, and was presented with its menu as a response. Seeing it instantly accepted teleports, I fired off the limo, and as advertised, he came right over. I moved him into a neighboring parcel, as my own little slice of real estate was insufficient for testing. The first thing, I thought, would be to make myself a back-up of a piece of expensive furniture, and so I dutifully scanned for the UUID, and had it copy that ID. Now, keep in mind, I'd lost a pair of blocks that had cost me about L$10,000 due to an asset server failure way the hell back in March, and with the asset servers being duct tape and paperclips anymore, wanted to protect my investment. Well, in just a few moments, I had a bed floating over the bot's head. "Sweet," I thought, looking at it. "How good a job did it do?" So I looked at the contents, expecting to find everything that was there. No such luck. "Ah well," I thought, and remembered something that had been bugging me for awhile. An av head I had done some modding on had gone completely no-mod (Luskwood avs.. you know how they are) on me during the permissions 'fix' LL deployed, and it annoyed the bejeezus outta me. So, I rezzed the 100-prim+ head and instructed the bot to do his thing. Took awhile, but he delivered: a complete copy of my head, sans scripts, animations and texture in the Contents tab. Figuring I'd not need the old one anymore, I pulled the contents and stuck 'em in the new head. Mission accomplished. By this time, I wondered just HOW I could get it to copy scripts, as I wanted to look one over to confirm or dispel something fishy in an object some of you may remember me mentioning awhile back. I couldn't do it. Nothing at all would happen. By the time I'd remembered an item I had (unavailable now) that I had wished was +mod that I wanted to copy, the bot had been logged off. After a bit of searching, I happened upon a place where it was being 'sold' in-world, where a crowd had gathered, jeering the seller from SLX, who was in attendance. After having the contents of the notecard the L$2900 buys one read out into open chat, I downloaded the application itself (hey... if you're making things free for all, why charge for the methodology, right?). Got it running, and loaded up an alt I'd had sitting around doing nothing. In speaking with a friend about it, I had her put on a freebie av that differed from what the alt had at the time, making sure she had nothing else on (after all, I was gonna have the bot clone her... she knew this going in, as I was demonstrating it to her). So, I fired the command. This time, it took quite awhile, as it was a fairly detailed furry av, with lots of attachments (VERY nice for a freebie). After it did, though, I noticed the bot completely mimicked her, as it went into the typing animation as she did, and even tried to walk in place. She noted it was quite creepy, to which I concurred. At that time, I showed her the 'prims-only' way it copied, and had her check a head (from the freebie av again, as I'd given it to her) against the original. At this time, I was needed elsewhere, and so ended the testing. So, I guess the best way to defeat this is to make sure your avs and items actually DO something or can verify their authenticity somehow and report the knock-offs. The bottom line: SL WILL weather this.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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11-14-2006 14:28
From: Lucifer Baphomet Looks like hawksplash was just technically incompetent.. I posted his blog entry as there seems to be a lot of scaremongering going on at the moment, i haven bothered downloading it and playing with it yet as i have this thing called a first life which demands my time today however heres the the link to the free version i have downloaded it now and will break the TOS to try it out tomorrow http://primrevolution.110mb.com/copybot-1.0.zipplease feel free to go and get it and let me know what you think 
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Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants. http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26
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JoshBear Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 65
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11-14-2006 20:36
From: Dr Tardis I find myself wondering something:
If you weren't rushed and pissed off, and you'd researched a little more before posting this, you might have noticed something: The program does not upload other people's outfits as inventory. They only show up on the avatar while it's near someone else. The program also does not copy prim-based objects unless they're worn as an attachment. So you can't walk up to a build and steal it. In fact, I don't believe it's possible to steal clothing items directly. At best, you could steal the baked textures and create an identical copy of the avatar's appearance: skin, clothing, and hair. The program is a debug tool and rather limited in usefulness. If everyone would just calm down and look at the reality of what's happened here, they wouldn't be talking about closing their stores and leaving SL for good. I find it interesting you defend your program as a TOOL .. I also find it interesting that your friend GeForce Go in not listed in SEARCH in world .... just another GeForce that was created today. Just admit your error and be an adult and take responsibility ... instead of hiding. Your group is now responsible for closing over 200 stores. Your group needs to be perm BANNED. You do no service to SL if this is your way of working. You all are a threat!!
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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11-14-2006 20:48
From: Lord Sullivan I posted his blog entry as there seems to be a lot of scaremongering going on at the moment, i haven bothered downloading it and playing with it yet as i have this thing called a first life which demands my time today however heres the the link to the free version i have downloaded it now and will break the TOS to try it out tomorrow http://primrevolution.110mb.com/copybot-1.0.zipplease feel free to go and get it and let me know what you think  Holly rabbit poo! is this the copybot!
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Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
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11-14-2006 20:54
From: Lord Sullivan I posted his blog entry as there seems to be a lot of scaremongering going on at the moment, i haven bothered downloading it and playing with it yet as i have this thing called a first life which demands my time today however heres the the link to the free version i have downloaded it now and will break the TOS to try it out tomorrow  Uhm... you just undermined any try to keep this off the market. GeForce, the guy who sold this inworld seems to be banned, thankfully... so it looks like LL does have something against the distribution of this tool, after all. I'd ask you to edit your post and remove the download link, or all the classified ads posted in a try to obfuscate future reseller location are for naught.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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11-14-2006 21:02
From: Ishtara Rothschild Uhm... you just undermined any try to keep this off the market. GeForce, the guy who sold this inworld seems to be banned, thankfully... so it looks like LL does have something against the distribution of this tool, after all. I'd ask you to edit your post and remove the download link, or all the classified ads posted in a try to obfuscate future reseller location are for naught. And LS a mentor to! Go figure
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Dr Tardis
Registered User
Join date: 3 Nov 2005
Posts: 426
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11-14-2006 21:30
From: JoshBear Sojourner I find it interesting you defend your program as a TOOL .. I also find it interesting that your friend GeForce Go in not listed in SEARCH in world .... just another GeForce that was created today. Just admit your error and be an adult and take responsibility ... instead of hiding. Your group is now responsible for closing over 200 stores. Your group needs to be perm BANNED. You do no service to SL if this is your way of working. You all are a threat!! First of all, it's not my tool. I didn't write it, and the only code I've written for libSecondLife is some login code and an IM program. I'm more of an interested observer than anything else. Second, I don't even know who Go is. I'm fairly sure, though, that he's NOT one of the contributers to the libSecondLife project. The project IS open Source, and anybody can get a snapshot of the code from any point in time since the creation of the SVN archive. Finally, I (and the others on libSL) have made no error. An individual wrote a program to test the creation of prims in SL, and it was misused. A wrench is a tool: it can turn bolts, but it can also bust a windshield or a skull. Don't blame the wrench or the Craftsman brand when someone uses it, wrongfully, to break something. The people who are closing their stores are doing so for the wrong reasons. It's unlikely that CopyBot will pose a serious long-term threat to their business (espeically if SL's security is tightened), but closing their stores is guaranteed to cut their business by 100%. With no store, you can't sell anything. Closing stores and threatening to quit SL is just plain knee-jerk ractionism, and once these people have had a chance to think about this, they will no doubt change their minds. Regardless, what really has me upset is not just the fact that this has happened, but the kind of reaction that you have portrayed. Rather than look at this objectively, you're blaming and throwing around accusations. That is wrong, no matter what, and you should learn to calm down and think a little before throwing around unfounded accusations.
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Don't make me get all Dr Tardis on you. -- Conan Godwin
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