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theif application on the lose

JoshBear Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 65
11-14-2006 08:26
From: GeForce Go
It is not my fault if content creators who get their items stolen do not file a DMCA report. They DO and have worked. As I said, this tool can be used for good or bad. People who use it for the bad part, WILL be punished.


This is an answer I expect from an imature child that REFUSES to accept ANY resposibility for what they do. GeForce needs to growup ... his is the mentality that people dont kill people .. guns do. He and the other children that have been allowed online are the main reason that SL is getting to be no longer a great place. They are just griefers that love to spread hate ... and then feel they have every right. Yet ... listen to them cry when anyone does anything to stop them. They cry like a baby and stomp their feet.

People who use this program should be punished as well as the creator and anyone that promotes it.

The only thing that will save GeForce... LL doesn't care one bit for the paying community (outside a few priviliged land barons) .. all they want is for a high subscriber base... and to help the griefers with new policies. :mad:
Kalel Venkman
Citizen
Join date: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 587
A detail
11-14-2006 08:27
While CopyBot does appear to be able to replicate prims with their textures, and allows an avatar to wear the same texture maps as another nearby avatar, it apparently doesn't duplicate the clothes or the skins themselves - it only mimics them. So no, it can't copy scripts in your prims, and no, apparently it can't make a copy of your paintwork, it can only mimic what it sees.

Of course, there are other tools out there that allow for texture theft directly off avatars' skins, but this tool apparently does not do that.

It's still a rather large threat to those who make and sell content in SL, though, so the alarum is still quite worthwhile.

Another detail - while the ToS appears to forbid reverse engineering of its protocol, that is trumped by federal law which states that reverse engineering is a legal right and may not be contractually waived, so long as it is done without taking possession of the actual materials involved (which in this case, has not taken place).

Lastly, the ethics of anyone selling this open source tool where the source code may be freely downloaded and compiled by anyone are highly suspect. He's making rather a lot of money by selling something he doesn't technically have the right to sell.
Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
11-14-2006 08:31
From: GeForce Go
It is not my fault if content creators who get their items stolen do not file a DMCA report. They DO and have worked. As I said, this tool can be used for good or bad. People who use it for the bad part, WILL be punished.

Ok with our things stolen and FULL PERMS- do you know how QUICKLY those will be passed around and made worthless/for all to have? It will be impossible to rid the grid of every stollen full perm item
GeForce Go
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 26
11-14-2006 08:32
From: JoshBear Sojourner
This is an answer I expect from an imature child that REFUSES to accept ANY resposibility for what they do. GeForce needs to growup ... his is the mentality that people dont kill people .. guns do. He and the other children that have been allowed online are the main reason that SL is getting to be no longer a great place. They are just griefers that love to spread hate ... and then feel they have every right. Yet ... listen to them cry when anyone does anything to stop them. They cry like a baby and stomp their feet.

People who use this program should be punished as well as the creator and anyone that promotes it.

The only thing that will save GeForce... LL doesn't care one bit for the paying community (outside a few priviliged land barons) .. all they want is for a high subscriber base... and to help the griefers with new policies. :mad:

No, I will not cry. I posted in the linden answers to have them IM me if I am violating any part of the TOS.
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
11-14-2006 08:33
From: GeForce Go
No, I will not cry. I posted in the linden answers to have them IM me if I am violating any part of the TOS.


I'm sure you won't lol, instead you will be laughing whilst you cash in on everyone's misery.
GeForce Go
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 26
11-14-2006 08:34
From: Hiro Queso
I'm sure you won't lol, instead you will be laughing whilst you cash in on everyone's misery.

Do you not understand what a DMCA report does?
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
11-14-2006 08:36
From: GeForce Go
No, I will not cry. I posted in the linden answers to have them IM me if I am violating any part of the TOS.


From: US DMCA, Sec. 1201:

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


...
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
11-14-2006 08:37
From: GeForce Go
Do you not understand what a DMCA report does?


Sorry, you obviously striuggled to comprehend my post. I didn't state that I didn't understand what a DMCA does, I pointed out how I do actually appreciate you won't be crying over this, and that in fact you will have a very big grin on your face as you cash in the L$ you collect from selling this to those wish to rip off others.

If it needs explaining again, let me know :)
CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
11-14-2006 08:40
From: GeForce Go
No, I will not cry. I posted in the linden answers to have them IM me if I am violating any part of the TOS.



Pathetic.

You don't need to be told you're doing something wrong here, TOS or not.
John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
11-14-2006 08:40
From: Ishtara Rothschild
You can't have been this blind for the use people will put such an application to, if you create an application that can take full permission copies of virtually anything. If LL would know a secure way to implement a backup function, they would have done so long ago.

The first thought of the LibSL team must have been: how do I check the item permissions and item ownership? When they found out that this wasn't possible (if they ever bothered at all), they introduced it as a fun application to copy other people's avatars, already stealing content while demonstrating the abilities of their tool. I can't believe Lindens watched this and didn't stop it right away. I mean, let me get this straight... it's demonstrated inworld, content is copied off other people's avatars with full perms, and you still didn't realized that you made the same mistake as Nobel? Come on. I don't believe this.



LL's open support of theft only shows me that there's some plan behind it, everything will be done to get SL millions of users and attract even more well-known companies. Content creators were only needed during the initial phase; now we have enough content to attract every average John and Jane. They will only come and stay if they can play for free, of course; but those millions of users are badly needed, to support the dream of the glorious world-wide 3D web. First the account registration is "open-sourced", now the content too. Everyone can join for free, everyone can copy any of those shiny avatars with all their bling for free, LL does their best to advertize this nifty tool and make sure everyone uses it without remorse to attract another million users and more companies, until the 3D web that no one really needs is forced into existence. I guess I understood my temporary role as a content creator now.



a viable 3d web would be a great advance, used alongside the more usual 2d version

Thats one (but not the only) reason why the outside companies are here
CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
11-14-2006 08:43
From: GeForce Go
Do you not understand what a DMCA report does?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law which criminalizes production and dissemination of technology that can circumvent measures taken to protect copyright, not merely infringement of copyright itself.

You are in violation of the DMCA yourself.
Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
11-14-2006 08:46
From: Kalel Venkman
While CopyBot does appear to be able to replicate prims with their textures, and allows an avatar to wear the same texture maps as another nearby avatar, it apparently doesn't duplicate the clothes or the skins themselves - it only mimics them. So no, it can't copy scripts in your prims, and no, apparently it can't make a copy of your paintwork, it can only mimic what it sees.

Of course, there are other tools out there that allow for texture theft directly off avatars' skins, but this tool apparently does not do that.

It's still a rather large threat to those who make and sell content in SL, though, so the alarum is still quite worthwhile.

Another detail - while the ToS appears to forbid reverse engineering of its protocol, that is trumped by federal law which states that reverse engineering is a legal right and may not be contractually waived, so long as it is done without taking possession of the actual materials involved (which in this case, has not taken place).

Lastly, the ethics of anyone selling this open source tool where the source code may be freely downloaded and compiled by anyone are highly suspect. He's making rather a lot of money by selling something he doesn't technically have the right to sell.

Im still not 100% clear on how t all works

Lets say a content creator has a whole sim with their products for sale- cant someone tp into the sim, use this copybot, steal EVERYTHING on the sim, theyre now the 'creator' of the stollen goods, and sell it or redistribute it themselves?
Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
11-14-2006 08:52

Do you now own the shape you mimicked(sp)?
CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
11-14-2006 09:06
From: GeForce Go
No, I will not cry. I posted in the linden answers to have them IM me if I am violating any part of the TOS.


You will when you receive notification of criminal proceedings against you but thanks anyway for posting here in such a forthcoming manner as it serves nicely to document your guilt with regards to your own violation of the DMCA for disseminating technology capable of undermining the copyright of content creators work in SL.

My own DMCA report against you will be filed tonight when I log in. I fully expect many others will do likewise.
Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
11-14-2006 09:14
From: GeForce Go
No, I will not cry. I posted in the linden answers to have them IM me if I am violating any part of the TOS.


What would you care about one banned alt? Prim Revolution, GeForce Go... how many alts do you have? Are you aware that even your avatar name violates the TOS, since GeForce is a registered trademark of the NVidia corporation? Would you dare to play your little charade under your main avatar name too?
Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
11-14-2006 09:16
From: CJ Carnot
My own DMCA report against you will be filed tonight when I log in. I fully expect many others will do likewise.


Good idea, CJ. I just read your previous post regarding the DMCA violation of such rippinng tools, thanks for the hint.
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-14-2006 09:23
From: GeForce Go
It's not a trojan. Content creators are lying in order to get people not to buy it. Check secondcitizen.com where they admit it there.


http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/07/important-free-money-hack-dont-fall-for-it/

and i quote from Brent Linden:

"Never give your Second Life account password to anyone, any site, any telemarketer or any other being (living, dead, undead or “other”) ever. Like, never ever. Never ever ever ever ever."

I sincerly hope that this msg gets out to any potential purchasers as i certainly wouldnt feel safe giving a hackers group my login details even if you have the Almighty's blessing :)

Peace
_____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.

http://slapt.me



slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26
Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
11-14-2006 09:24
From: GeForce Go
If you read *anything* about what you're bashing, you'd know it uses an alternate account as the bot. In order for it to log you in as the bot, it needs your password. That's why the notecard suggests making a NEW alt to use.


I overlooked this earlier. If a resident with an existing account creates an alt, they're supposed to confirm their identity including their payment information in order to pay the L$10 fee. Means, a registered resident can't get a TOS-compliant alt without payment information on file. And you ask them to provide the password to an account with credit card or paypal information? Either that, or you're asking for a TOS violation by creating an unverified alt.
Kalel Venkman
Citizen
Join date: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 587
Dmca
11-14-2006 09:29
You folks making threats about the DMCA, you should know that the entire process requires interaction with a copyright lawyer and Linden Labs. You cannot perform this interaction yourselves, nor can you simply file an AR and claim a DMCA violation and have done with it. The DMCA is set up to allow corporations to defend their intellectual property - even if you have the financial resources to file under the DMCA, you would have to site specific instances, and the specific location in-world where they can be found. Further, the materials being copied in violation of the DMCA must be YOUR materials, or your claim has no standing. Instructions for DMCA complaints are available on the Second Life web site.

The DMCA is not a club for you to use against people of whose behavior you disapprove, nor can it be used to halt the distribution of a tool or utility which can be used for questionable purposes. The CopyBot tool itself is not the guilty party, nor are its makers. Those who would use the tool to replicate materials for sale may be targetted, but only in accordance with the aforementioned conditions. The specific means of the theft would be irrelevant.
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
11-14-2006 09:31
From: Kalel Venkman
You folks making threats about the DMCA, you should know that the entire process requires interaction with a copyright lawyer and Linden Labs. You cannot perform this interaction yourselves, nor can you simply file an AR and claim a DMCA violation and have done with it. The DMCA is set up to allow corporations to defend their intellectual property - even if you have the financial resources to file under the DMCA, you would have to site specific instances, and the specific location in-world where they can be found. Further, the materials being copied in violation of the DMCA must be YOUR materials, or your claim has no standing. Instructions for DMCA complaints are available on the Second Life web site - I'd advise you to go read them before making further declarative statements about your intent.


The DMCA clause that forbids the redistribution of devices or technologies that defeat copy protection mechanisms doesn't work this way. The MPAA was able to take action against DeCSS, even though the MPAA doesn't manufacture DVD players and didn't design the copy protection used on DVDs - the technology was being used to copy DVDs, which the MPAA members produced, and that was enough.
Kalel Venkman
Citizen
Join date: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 587
11-14-2006 09:40
From: Yumi Murakami
The DMCA clause that forbids the redistribution of devices or technologies that defeat copy protection mechanisms doesn't work this way. The MPAA was able to take action against DeCSS, even though the MPAA doesn't manufacture DVD players and didn't design the copy protection used on DVDs - the technology was being used to copy DVDs, which the MPAA members produced, and that was enough.


However, the DMCA support guidelines as proferred by Linden Labs do work this way. All they promise to do for you is "take-downs", or removal of offending materials. They do not agree to police all the possible means of deriving these materials, nor can they. That is up to the individual complaintant to do.

I would also point out that the MPAA lost both their initial suit against the maker of DeCSS, and the appeal, so their suit had no merit to start with.
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
11-14-2006 09:44
From: Kalel Venkman
However, the DMCA support guidelines as proferred by Linden Labs do work this way. All they promise to do for you is "take-downs", or removal of offending materials. They do not agree to police all the possible means of deriving these materials, nor can they. That is up to the individual complaintant to do.


This is a different category. This isn't someone distributing offending materials (and you're right, LL can't legally act on those, because it's not their copyright that's being broken).

But this is someone distributing a means of breaking copy protection. That act, in itself, is illegal under the DMCA - it doesn't need evidence that a copyright has actually been broken using it (which is a bit controversial, but there it is). I think LL could act on this, on the grounds it has harmed them by damaging their platform. Even if LL don't, any resident could, although they'd need to go through an awkward trail of subpoenas.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-14-2006 10:09
From: Ishtara Rothschild
I just read Robin's post on the blog, and it comes down to: "Merely copying something doesn’t mean that a copyright violation has occurred."
This is fucking ridiculous. Excuse my german, but I fail to find nicer words. They allow everyone to copy every prim attachment as long as it isn't resold. Buy a pair of shoes and allow all your friends to copy them! It's legal, just don't resell the copies. Prim skirts, hair, every unscripted attachment is reduced to freebies!
I don't think that's what Robin intended. Let's try another scenario.

This is a *hypothetical* scenario: I don't have a copy of Copybot (in fact I think it's Windows-only, no?) and I wear shoes in SL... but:

Let's say I buy a pair of shoes, but they don't fit the shape of my feet, and they're no-mod, no-transfer. Most vendors will not take them back or refund my money. If I were to use copybot to copy the shoes that I had bought for my own use so that I could wear them... Robin is saying that wouldn't be against the TOS.

Clearly if I were to do that for shoes I didn't own, it would be, whether I redistributed them or not.

From: someone
This is how companies like SOE or Blizzard deal with such situations:
SOE and Blizzard consider buying and selling in real money a violation of the TOS, too. You have to be careful with the analogies here... I mean if LL operated like SOE or Blizzard you wouldn't have any resident-created content to be worried about!

From: someone
Third, they change their client software into "spyware" (that’s what Blizzard did), to detect any application that interferes with their data stream.
If LL did that I'd have to think long and hard about playing SL any more. Not because I want to cheat, but because that kind of behaviour violates my principles: it's one of the reasons I don't play any other MMORPGs, why I use FreeBSD and Mac OS X instead of Windows... and when I *have* to use Windows I don't buy Janus-protected material or run antivirus software (I make sure I'm never infected in the first place - and I haven't been: in 20 years of using and administering DOS and Windows I've yet to have to clean up my own system after a virus).
John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
11-14-2006 10:14
Giving a password to a third party application (which may possibly be linked to a credit card if a newly created alt (legaly) of an existing avatar is not only stupid as you leave yourself open to online fraud of which you would have no recompense but...

It is also a breech of Lindens TOS

Just a view

Regards

John
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-14-2006 10:20
From: Jessica Elytis
It can only be used to "Steal" items instead of purchasing them, or to modify thier permissions beyond what the creator wished to allow.

I dare LL,or anyone, to name one legitimate use for this thing.
Recovering a build I made and deeded to group, where part of the build accidentally had the wrong permissions.

Fixing an object that was broken when LL tightened up the permissions on no-mod scripts in no-mod objects so that I can't reset the broken script any more.

Replacing a broken GPL-ed script in the inventory of a no-mod avatar. It's actually against the GPL to use GPLed scripts in a way that prevents the user from modifying them, by the way.
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