Ulrika Declared a Terrorist in N'burg

While this is probably not the way to go, it's things like this that make bannings funny in the first place. If Ulrika really wanted to 'delete the city' then a silly ban would barely be a speed bump. Sometimes people just get a little power going to the head and need an excuse to use it.

Just for the record, and since it's a topic of conversation, Ulrika herself wrote the Nburg rules that state that the things she made for Neualtenburg are Neualtenburgs to use.

I am posting these extracts for Educational purposes only.

The relevant article in her own hand (her caps):

Later on there is also this gem:

And this is relevant to her "banning" (again in her own hand):
It's also worth noting that her contributions to Neualtenburg, while great in terms of intellectual contributions, are not that huge in terms of the number of actual buildings, streets etc. that would have to be replaced if they are in fact deleted.

Neualtenburg has a great many excellent builders of the very highest calibre. It also boasts probably one of the highest concentration of Mentors, Greeters, Game Hosts legal experts, forum drama queens and creators you are likely to find anywhere in SL. We will survive very well without Ulrika as we have been doing for quite a while now.

So? That has nothing to do with what I said. I was saying that as Jonas pointed out, from a purely technical standpoint this 'ban' doesn't even do what the banner claims as the justification for doing it. I don't really care if the Neualtenburg TOS says she can or can't, because in reality she can if she wants, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Your TOS means nothing outside of Neualtenburg, even then it doesn't mean anything. The worst you can do for a Neualtenburg TOS violator is ban them from the sim. On top of that, she's already been told she's not a Neualtenburg citizen anymore, so if that's the case then your own TOS is completely meaningless, regardless of who wrote it.

1) All this is a moot point because I don't think anyone involved would stoop to such childishness in the first place.

2) Deleting parts of a themed build like that with an alt given mod rights - if that's not griefing, I'm not sure what is. I truly hope the rest of you don't honestly believe that this is an acceptable course of action.

Can someone IM me when it reaches the point of armed revolution? I so want in on some of that!

I agree. I wasn't in any case arguing this as a course of action, I was merely pointing out that the supposed reason for banning was ridiculousness because it did not prevent what it was supposedly instituted to prevent.



I don't think LL would consider deleting your own objects to be griefing. You can probably attach any other label to it you want, but I don't think this one will stick. You have the right to withdraw from any group or community anytime you want, and that clearly includes taking anything you own with you. If Neualtenburg made no arrangements to have the ownership of the city transferred elsewhere then I would say that is their own problem. If they don't like the possibility of Ulrika taking her marbles and going home, they can stop using her objects or negotiate for ownership of them.

Even though I attached my earlier response onto your post, it was meant for general information to the thread and not a personal attack. I am sorry it seems to have got you so mad.

This is mostly an internal Neualtenburg matter that has been dragged into the public sphere.
Here, I think you are missing the point.

Residents of Neualtenburg, by way of the TOS they agree to when they join, may not necessarily be allowed to "take anything they own with them," especially if it is infrastructure created for Neualtenburg currently in use by Neualtenburg. Thats the point of the relevant parts of the agreement I quoted. By agreeing to the TOS, you are (in effect) signing a contract. By means of the TOS agreement, Neualtenburg has effectively already negotiated, if not for ownership, then at least for continued use of the objects in question.

The point is moot however, as, like Desmond says, it's unlikely that anyone would stoop to such foolishness anyway. The objects in question have little to no value outside of the context in which they currently exist and there is really no logical reason to take them IMO.

Holy shit! The three people who didn't see this comming when this whole thing started are shocked!

We can meet on the grassy knoll.

It's fascinating that this topic has naturally turned to the subject of content ownership and the potential for deletion. It's as if people intuitively understand that the underlying reason for my ban from the sim wasn't for my forum posts but was instead to prevent me from removing my content from the sim. That's the real problem with the city right now, it's built on unpaid-for intellectual property. From dozens of pages of content on the website (ToS, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, overview, etc.) to large amounts of the city itself (roads, streets, walls, markets, buildings) I am the creator and, in regards to sim objects, the owner. Some of it has been given freely as a volunteer but most of the initial infrastructure was not.

I created all of the infrastructure and most of the web content long before I wrote the ToS, back when N'burg had just three investors. All three of us put up money but I was the sole member doing the work. I spent weeks working 40 hours a week on top of RL to put together this start up company (a city in a sim and online business tools) in order to attract participants. I have always stated since the beginning that that initial work shall be compensated for when the sim is profitable. This was no problem in the beginning when I was in charge and creating the infrastructure. However, by the time the city filled and was profitable, the existing government and members refused to pay for the infrastructure and attempted to use the then-created ToS as a tool to negate my claim to compensation.

No N'burg citizen will deny the fact that most of the critical business and city infrastructure was created by me. They will attempt to use contractual caveats to try and negate my claim to this initial investment (as seen above). Interesting, eh?

My arguments are as follows:

1. The creation of the business and city infrastructure was done under contract before the existence of the government.
   
2. The creation of the business and city infrastructure was never volunteered and there has always been an expectation of compensation.
   
3. This work predates the ToS and creation of the new government and cooperative.
   
4. The city would not have succeeded without he creation of the business and city infrastructure.
   
5. To this day the city depends on the business and city infrastructure for normal functioning.

It's a standard case of a hard-working entrepreneur being pushed out (and locked out) of a company, in order to get out of paying them. Like Gwyn said as was being asked to leave a few months ago, I should've gotten it in writing.

Anyways, this situation needs resolution. I am back not to delete structures in griefer style but instead to take the city to court -- its own court for resolution. If the court is unable to render a fair decision, we'll take it to the supreme court (the Lindens).

I want this resolved so I can rest in peace.

~Ulrika~

Meh, well if all else goes to poot, at least Ulrika can do a small "Thiller" jig among the ruins. :3

Glad to se ya again, ladykins!

Actually.. if you delete your stuff, its not greifing. Since they want her gone from Nburg.. the Nburg TOS no longer applies to her. Even if it did- Lindens leave user vs user contract issue shandsoff.

They would see someone deleting what they built. And theres nothing wrong with that..Nburg doens't have a leg to stand on.

Ulrika, you know I'm fully supportive of you here and will do all I can to aid you in this --BUT-- I'd point out that while the majority of the city design and a good deal of the infrastructure builds were done by you, I'm fairly certain that the majority of actual building and texture work is in fact mine.

Just sayin'

Whoa. This is an excellent point!

As a matter of fact all the stone textures (ground and walls), all of the roof textures (buildings), and the initial wall design are yours. In fact, when putting together the second phase of the city on the private sim, during your hiatus, I used them without your permission!

~Ulrika~

I don't think its fair to comment on this since it will be going to a hearing if that is what you want.
(and you seem to)

Please remember that such hearings as described in our founding documents are both private and binding and that reviewing the consistency and truth of your statements will be a part of the process.

I can provide the SC with an archive of emails sent during the start up which you can correlate with with the other two founding members, if you wish. There's also the forum which has a tremendous amount of data on the subject.

~Ulrika~

I'm not mad in any way. I was merely pointing out, which you still seem to have missed, that your TOS has no teeth. It's not binding in any way, and you can't enforce it. When the sun sets, the only TOS that matters is Linden Lab's, and they're not going to give a shit if your TOS says Ulrika can't delete her own property. It's her property, end of story. This is also why your 'government' is just a gimmick. The only real power in Neualtenburg is the sim owner, just as anywhere else in Second Life. I'm betting everyone else could go get fucked as far as LL is concerned. Don't like it? Don't go to Neualtenburg. Land owners are king on their own land, anybody else is a peon no matter how you dress them up and parade them around.

Exactly. In fact, I wonder just how that'd fall out. Neualtenburg denying Ulrika access to remove her own builds from someplace she has been deemed unwelcome seems like it'd be more griefing than her removing them.

Ulrika said if Neualtenburg can't handle this she'll take it to the 'supreme court', but somehow I have a feeling the Lindens won't actually do anything anyway. It's a dispute between players dating back years. If anything, I have a feeling that "Everyone take their own marbles and go home." would be exactly the suggestion made if they can't work it out themselves.

Ladies and gentleman I give you the end of Nburg cuz thats what we are seeing here. The noble experiment has failed is failing will fail. it has no choice. The TOS in fact the entire constitutiion if in fact one exists, is completely non enforcable and in many areas goes contrary to LL policy. it is in short a sohpistic goverment - a logical body built on an illogical foundation. When the illgoic of the foundation begins to crack,as we see here, the bodyof the goverment and the city of Nburg will tumble.

Interesting experement with a firey finish- woulda made a good Irwin Allen movie in the 70's

Please invite me for the build deletions. I'll wear my chicken hat and swill from my stein. Can we make stuff go physical?

I disagree completely.

The government is normally very productive and stable. It only shows signs of weakness during times of crisis. Because it doesn't have the veneer of professionalism and detachment that the Linden Oligarchy has, during tough times it can look disorganized. The solution is to have members act with authority through their governmental roles, supressing the natural desire to operate as a simple group through direct democracy (mob rule). In the end, after this is complete, things will go on as normal.

As for being a veneer, the government has true power over citizens. Enforcement is provided by threat of explulsion, repossession of land, and banning. In my case enforcement is a moral and social contract I have with all people, especially the citizens of N'burg. I will respect their processes despite no longer being a citizen in hopes have reaching a mutually satisfying agreement.

The drama that you see exists in all groups. The opportunity to have council with a Judicial branch is something that is unique to governmental groups like N'burg.

~Ulrika~

1. Show your written and signed contract. Let's see what amount or percentage is in that for compensation for the builds

2. In real life, there's a rule (well, it varies from country to country), a law, the statue of limitation (hope i'm getting that right). It says, even if someone didn't pay you back a long time ago, if it's been too long, above the time limit (half years, 5 years, whatever), and you didn't pursue your money since then, you can consider your money lost.
It's been created for the exact scenario you're doing now: making something, not asking a penny, only to just much much later appear and suddenly extort money for your long done work.

3. The moral part: let's say I help create a theme park in SL, and many people are having fun with it, enjoying it, etc. If I get in a dispute with the group I helped about anything, I COULD delete and take all my builds... but that would be the worst thing to do, and people could hate me for that rightfully. I could say 'hey, why is our group flag red, I like it white, change it to white or else I delete everything I made', but that's just soo soo pityful.

The most you can do is, yes, delete your builds and people will replace them fast with similar or similar styled parts. The city will recover fast, but you'll lose morally and otherwise, too. So what good does it do?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

In all seriousness, I agree with Zonax. While Ulrika certainly has the right to delete her builds (assuming the sim owners unban her, a decision which is also within their right), nothing positive would come of doing so unless the current owners were okay with it. It would only serve to increase the divisiveness between the two parties.

Und der Rabe rührt' sich nimmer, sitzt noch immer, sitzt noch immer
auf der bleichen Pallas-Büste überm Türsims wie vorher;
und in seinen Augenhöhlen eines Dämons Träume schwelen,
und das Licht wirft seinen scheelen Schatten auf den Estrich schwer;
und es hebt sich aus dem Schatten auf dem Estrich dumpf und schwer

meine Seele - nimmermehr.

the irony is killing me!!!