Prok is right. SL is a dog's breakfast. Why do people argue with this?

Juro. In principal you are right. High Rises are par tof the land scape. BUt they are not everywhere. We have both a San Diego and a a Big sur. In some areas, high rises dominate and in others it is the land. Ultimately, I think, the point is how do we regulate which goes where? There is a lot of compromise everytime a sky scraper gets built. And a lot of headaches, hearings and permits.

So that is our debate: where is it appropriate to put a highrise, and where is it not?

You put your finger on it. Prok and everyone else, let's set aside the recriminations and answer this basic question.

At the moment, it's appropriate to put a tower anywhere you own land. If you want a tiki-only or tower-only sim, you have to buy the land and create your own themed sim.

Looking to the future, however, should themed sims or zoning be administered by LL? I think so. It would certainly reduce the number of interplayer conflicts.

Unfotunate, yes.. but noone forced them to move. They packed up and did relocated themselves.


What are you talking about? The Tiki owners didn't move, just waiting out the storm.

Yes, Jennifer has summed up: where is it appropriate, and where not? Can't we have some community feedback about this? After all, if I protest this white tower in Caleta, so what? It can do what it wants, and does. A black tower came up and parked next to it, unrelated to me, and then the two of them danced into the next sim. What entertainment. What a show. Both of those companies got LOTS of free advertising. They surely have the money to buy their 4096s or their 8192s and pay for their builders or whatever. What did they lose? Huh? Meanwhile, down below, we lost our view, and I lost some customers and my hard-won reputation.



I dunno, Juro, this is just another example of veiled threats that happen to me so often, which runs like this: I don't like your point of view, I don't the way you are saying it, I don't like WHAT you are saying or THAT you are saying so I'm going to a) slam you as a person and tell everyone that I am "let down" by you and in a sense you are now "denigrated in my eyes" and b) your noble idea of a themed communities is now shit, and your representation of it is suspect, because you said something I didn't like in the forums. And then from that leap of flawed logic comes the next slam, therefore, I have decided you have "utter lack of respect for all types of buildings."

Let's go very, very, VERY carefully over all your leaps and sky-rockets of logic and assumption here because it was this same, harsh, ridiculous, judgemental slam of me made by the builder leading to an incredibly fallacious lie and slander of my character that caused me to take up the issue of a) that type of judgement that so often comes from "artists" and b) this particular tower blocking our view.

1. You don't like what I say on the forums. OK, but why spread that on to me in the game? Look at my communities. Isn't there a respect for all kinds of builds in the game? People put what they like on their lawn. Note that YOUR house was displayed in Stump, fore example, leading me to be slammed by Seth for putting out a "wannabee ski lodge". He had no appreciation for your building in Stump, he had no appreciation for diversity of builds, and yet I did, including your house. I had your house out in Furness. The tenant asked that it be removed and put up a suburban house. These are all within the realm of their rights. They do not intrude on their neighbours. Your notion that I don't respect diversity and don't have a legitimate good business and therefore am a suspected character in this game ALL came as fallacious extentions of your mere gut dislike of my challenge to you in the forums.

2. What I said in the forums related to one tower that I felt a) misused its position to harass me and my clients and intimidate and slander me and b) had no place in waterfront. Those very special combined circumstances led me to challenge the arrogant, high-handed nature of architects and builders in this game who are feted by the company because they provide a visible game product and led me to say, WTF, how come Tiki can't rule down on the waterside? And I know that those Tiki people are only too glad to have someone say something about these arrogant types who keep walzing in and taking over sims.

You've leapt to a million conclusions, you've put me on your ignore list, if not your shit list, you've decided not to take me seriously, you've decided I'm shit and why?

a. You're a famous architect in this game and I've challenged some things about your upper caste.
b. I've slammed one tower in this game specifically for two site-specific reasons having to do with 1) the presence of me and my ownership of recently resold first-land in the sim and 2) the presence of Tiki huts on the waterfront
c. You've decided that the combination of a) and b) means you are entiteld to slam my communities, slam me as a person, decide I have let you down, decide I am shit, decide I lack judgement, decide that I lack appreciation for a variety of builds (including your houses) -- all fallacious, mendacious, ridiculous conclusions.

I'm sorry, but I challenge the thought-processes of famous architects in this game caste system who think in this way, make judgements in this way, and leap to conclusions in this way because it is harmful not only to me, but other thoughtful people in the game.

All I did was challenge the notion of freebies in what is supposed to be a market-driven economy but which can never quite get going because of all the breaks on it.

All I did was challenge one tower now in a specific sim with specific circumstances, and all of a sudden, all the crimes of all the Nazi building commissions are hung on my neck, and charged with the crime of slamming ALL towers in the game, or worse, slamming ALL builds. This is arrant idiocy. It is false. It is not true. Go over it again.

Let me restate it:

1. I have appreciation for a wide variety of builds including towers -- I even sponsored one myself in Ross! But the tower I have in Ross has Linden sea on three sides of it and a mall in front of it, 250 meters from the telehub, so I don't hulk over little newbie lots below or chase away residents.

2. I have respect even for the talent and capacities of these builders under dispute, more than respect, as you can't possibly know. But I challenge *specific behavior in this sim against me and others*. Can we please make these distinctions?

3. I have respect for you and your building even though we are in a disagreement now and I will not carry this over into the game and I will go right on buying your houses and placing the existing ones I own and renting them, without fear or favor.

It is this failure to make these distinctions between forum posts in a heated debate, and how you treat someone in the game, between forum posts about a specific situation, and vast generalizations, that make this forum so arduoous. I am constantly slammed for making generalizations, although I am characterizing the behavior of one caste-like body in this game, not slandering individuals.

I am confident that you will understand all these distinctions.

maybe what is being asked is that we ask someone if we can build something or not..... wonder who that would be?

hey Toy, maybe we ARE wrong (I know, I can't see it either but for the sake of arguement...) maybe the fact that this is a SHARED world of servers etc it is more fragile than we think and the social aspect of a shared game environment can really have unplesant repuccusions for everyone if we don't go out of our way to appease our neighbors....

exactly, so the incesant rants are accompihing nothing except causing divisivness. I dont see why comparisons are constantly being made to RL.... HELLO..... this is SL not RL. Its a service we pay for, we accepted the rules when joining, if I dont like somethings rules I simply move on

I think the discussion should be: "Should we be regulating what goes where?"

Sorry, Prokofy mentioned they moved... I was elaborating on that. Weathering out the storm will pay off. I've done it a few times.

Ulrika?

(just teasing, Ulrika)

The discussion is not black and white. It's is not do we regulate versus do we not.

The discussion is simply - how do we better encourage and influence SL residents to collaborate more to create more compelling and content with harmony.

Blaze, in actuality a very small number of residents have problems, they work it out inworld chat with neighbors and things get worked out in a friendly manner. All threads like this do is enrage a few people who feel slighted, perhaps because of their poor people skills, who knows

Well, they have to resolve it out in chat there really is no other way.

But no one likes to complain to other people specifically, so complaints are rare, people just move on or wait it out.

*Poof* Who dares summon me to this strange "Land and the Economy" forum by speaking my name? I shall entomb thee in a lamp for all eternity with Prokofy!

~Ulrika~

Your lost view - possibly.. it *is* subjective. You may not like a big fat tower in your view, but others might if it was nicely done. Your lost customers - well, I'm sorry to hear about that. Your lost reputation - very doubtful. You've worked hard at creating residential communities that seem to work and one little issue inworld or one silly forum thread is not going to destroy your reputation.

Please don't imply I was threatening you - because clearly I wasn't. I'm not that good and do not wield that much power. I never said your idea of themed communities was shit. Quite the contrary.. I'm a huge fan of yours and others becuase I think its something that is lacking in SL. It's something I would've loved to have been involved in, but my RL puts serious restrictions on my SL time.


I never brought it in-world. Never would. My in-world time is too limited to spend it being hateful/spiteful. I know/respect your developements and am honored you chose some of my homes to place in them, even if they did not meet with warm fuzzies from each and every tenant. My homes are not the usual suburban style - not everyone will appreciate them.

I can agree with a) but not with b). Who is to say that a (nicely done) tower doesn't belong on the waterfront?

No, No, No, and NO!!!!! I did NOT put you or anyone else on my ignore list. I never have and never will. To me, putting someone on ignore is parallel to micro censorship. I do not have a shit list. I *do* take you seriously.. if I didn't, I wouldn't spend my time typing this out - trust me. You are not shit - I NEVER SAID THAT. Jesus.

I am not 'famous' (infamous, maybe).. I do not belong to any caste. I log in, do my builds and log off. On the odd day, I socialize. I understand your issue with 1).. but my issue is that you seem to have let that issue with an individual bleed over into any and all highrises and I think it is unjust.

I am no more entitled to 'slam' you than you are to 'slam' anyone else. It's my opinion Prokofy.. nothing more. Don't put so much weight behind my words.

I said it struck me as odd that you seemingly chastized another for lack of appreciated in variety, yet you're appeared to be beating the drum against a particular type of build.


And I challenged you back, because I thought the idea was silly and off-mark. You implied that the 'uber-architects' made freebies to compensate for raping the land of riches (my words). That, I took offense to.

There are plenty of builders out there (please step forth if you choose to) that have purchased freebies when they were young and have still managed to build a nice career in SL for themselves. I won't name any names, but they are out there and hopefully will show some support for freebies.

However... I tell you what I'll do. Since you seem to think that freebies are impeding new players from entering the marketplace, I'm going to put up a poll and we'll let the readers decide. Should the freebies stay or should they go? If the community agrees with you, I will gladly remove all of my freebies - no questions asked.


None of this is true. I commented on your posts which I happen to disagree with. I never hung anything around your neck.. never said you slammed all builds. You're puffing this up.

I've been trying to. Sounds like your issue is with the person and thier actions.


Likewise - I'll continue to be a fan of your projects.

I don't agree that people "resolve it in chat". I find that most people in this game are strung out and wrapped so tight from too many hours playing or picky frustrating work with prims or scripts, or dramas and RL clashes with SL (and all in denial about this real game landscape), that they snap at you like a junkyard dog.

And trust me, this isn't me just "mirror-imaging" what I am going through myself, because I could be on the sunniest, smiliest, alt that has no baggage or history with anybody, and some tenant will snarl at me that I am stealing their dwell because they just don't get how dwell works in a group (BOY is that a hard topic) and no hours of explaining will ever get it across.

So in that climate, which is much of the game space at times, you ask someone "Can you move that tree?" or "Can I buy that land next to mine?" or "Could you consider stopping that sign from spinning?" they snarl and snap and bite like a junkyard dog. That's the norm, and I should know, because I deal with the public ten times more than any of you who sit on your private sandbox lots, your private islands, or your public sandboxes in build and busy mode. Sorry, but those are the facts.

Re: the Tiki situation out in Calleta. I really can't parse everything going on there with that. The first time I came out there, I saw several sets of neighbours, what seemed like several sets of Tiki, and I talked to some about the rentals arrangement and don't think I talked to the others much at all. There were a lot of people flying around, etc. The next time I came, one of these lots was for sale. Another had a big board over it. That person had talked Tiki, but who the heck knows. Tiki is still out there, God bless it, and I hope Tiki stays. Like I said elsewhere, I set one lot to sale because it has just been nothing but loss out there, and I hope to cling to my one other waterfront for dear life even though a mall may spring up right behind me or in front of, because I just have been through too much out there. Well, maybe I will put a Tiki hut, too, I think I have one.

But...with one tower gone, and a tower war, and then seemingly no towers, we're back to Plastic Duck and all his friends and their fake plausible deniability of "it's not my tower" and "I'm not doing this" and "I only gave a block" and all that crap, even as all of them surround you, push your av, and taunt you with British slogans from TV shows and movies you've never seen LOL. It's all like Monty Python on speed but rather harsh, not funny. There is all kindsa ugly stuff around, big kitties and stuff. I think give it 30 days, it'll be gone. I would say dig in, Tiki, non pasarant!

Bullshit, thats all you do is slander and berate people in these threads, because nobody agrees with you and your halfbaked ideas that WILL NEVER BE IMPLIMENTED no matter how high you jump up and down and wave your arms in the air.

You go on an on and on and on and on and on and on and on and for what? Are so fucking egotistical and dlilusional that one day Philip will say "Prok was right, let's piss off 99 percent of our subscribers and impliment his ingenious plan"?

Get a life dipshit.

Juro,

Let me cut through all the spliced up quotes here. Now you are trying to portray me as hysterical, exaggerated, out of control, making up stuff, putting the problems of one individual on the game, blah blah blah.

Please do not do that. I'm rational, I'm trying to make the case here, and I'm not some emotional disabled type here ok? We're not postal here, and we're not in road rage. It's just a debate.

You accused me of attacking all variety in builds. Please, Juro, what a load of crap. I patiently endeavored to show you, no, I don't attack ALL variety of builds, not the case whatsoever, I attacks builds that really severely grief othersm through four major features. Let's not bore everbody with rehearsing them. I'm trying to define it in such a way that anybody, on any sim, can say: "Do these builds meet these four major features?" and use that as a tool to figure out how the community can move. We've simply got to find ways of doing this.

This idea that I can build anything on my land is just way, way too tiresome to many of us now. We know that. We respect that. But we're tired of hearing it as the liberal ideology that lets terrorism in the door, terrorism that cannot any longer protect even the liberal ideology that enabled it to come in the door in the first place.

This tower wasn't a terrorist but it was a menace on a variety of fronts and these are not about an individual but some really generic issues in SL -- can you get to harm others with impunity by your selfish and malicious actions using scarce land and the presence of newbies as your launching pad? Can you get to plunk down buildings without some comment from neighbours? Can you get to scar the earth and mar the skyline without anybody having recourse? And my answer, instead of reaching for these tiresome nostrums about how "I get to build the fuck I want on my land fuck off" is to say, please, could we think of some BETTER ways to deal with this than the usual dog's breakfast?

Let me take this opportunity to say, I did NOT call SL as a whole game space "dog's breakfast." That's blaze's phrase. Read my blog, talk to me in live time on the game, and you'll find out that is just a caricature of me. I also didn't make MY issues with menacing towers taking up waterfront proximity, etc. an issue that is about *amateurish newby builds*. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is NEVER about amateurish newby builds beause they are outside the realm of this discussion, and those who constantly try to weave them back into the discussion are just being emotionally mainpulative to get an audience of pitch-fork wielding amateur budding Bob the Builders.

One of the most popular things in this game is for people to play the old "think of the children card". You say an argument and they say "What about the newbies?" You do something they don't like and they know the way to rile public sentiment against you is to say "You are scamming newbies". It's the oldest trick in the books. SO I am turning the tables on all that bullshit "think of the children" manipulative stuff and saying, ahem, cough, we had some newbies here with Tiki, or would-be Tiki, or even just scared offline at this point, and the towers and tower war scared them off or at least they aren't visible crawling around living their happy newbie lives when you fly over. So, could we just stop this usual uber-architect infomercial and say...think about the children one more time?

I like your idea of calling a poll about the freebies. Of course that kind of populist move will get you a vote that has everybody voting for the freebies. Sure, that sounds like a Lukashenka referendum, yeah, whatever, love me, love my tyranny LOL.

But I'm talking about how harm comes to societies with too many free things, Juro, especially free things you can't change! Juro! Have you ever really thought about this?. Like, have you ever had the breakfasts in Belarus? I have friends and relatives come here and you know something? You will laugh sarcastically, but some of them buy dog food in stores on their first trip by accident not undestanding them, and they think that a can with a picture of a happy friendly frisky dog on it must be a sign that a dog, man's best friend, is really happy with the meat inside of that can that is in fact intended for man. I guess you never ate tushyonka. They don't have dog food as such in these countries because to put dog food in a can and sell it as a special thing isn't what you could justify doing in a poor country, dogs normally just get leftover bones and gristle. So...dog's breakfast is a relative thing, hmm? And why is this? Because they didn't put a value on people's labour (we pretend to work and you pretend to pay us), they didn't really rate what things really cost, pretending they could give them for free because they were utopian dickheads, and lots of other fun stuff like that. So I know, from that. And I do not want to see that in here, that's all. I want to see things valued properly, and the market providing honest feedback about them by buying them, or not, not by having them pile up like goddamn cans of tushyonka in the store, which is the way some of these free prefabs look to me out in 512 hell.

Juro, it seems important for you to be right and to win. So be right and win. You have not convinced a man because you have silenced him. I don't agree with your take on things. There is indeed an uber caste and they do indeed feel a sense of pride of place in SL and they need to lose that sense and acquire a little humility so they cannot harm others with impunity, and cannot keep the game a place like the Kremlin -- toadies currying favors with boyars and princes and barons, all sucking up to the Tsar, with subsidizes art programs feting the talented, who in fact live in gilded cages they refuse to see.

No, Nolan, this is not "baggage" from some other opera, some other era, some other society. It is a real description of real things that happen in this virtual world. If it feels like a misapplied metaphor, if you think someone should just log on and chill or go in build mode or just hang with their friends and be sure to tell everyone arrogantly that they are "So busy in RL and have so much RL they can't log into SL" (implying that those who do are chumps), well, fine, I honestly don't care. So often observers do not try to record what is happening across the system, but try to merely portray their own vantage point as correct. I offer a unique, if heartily disliked take on SL. It's a good thing to have. Take it or leave it.

MacOS has a service called "SummaryService" which takes arbitrary text and reduces it into a summary. Just for fun I thought I'd run this monster post through it and see what I could get. Here it is.


Not bad. Now if only we could get that installed in Prokofy.

~Ulrika~

Hmmm, now that's cool!

It reminds me when I did a post doc, I wrote software which could take instrumental music and summarize it into its most representative piece.

I did this by comparing sequences of amplitudes and the sequence which was most similar to the rest of piece (ie, the sequence most used over and over again) was the sample I provided.

To do this for text would be a very exciting idea. This is all very off topic, but really cool.

Prokofy.. I'm not trying to portray you as anything - that is not my job. If anything, I was trying to make it VERY CLEAR that I appreciate what you do for SL and the niche you've helped to create.

I know you're rational and that's what really kills me about this issue - and what seems to have bubbled into many issues - you are too rational to not get what I'm pointing out.

I did not accuse you of attacking a variety of buildings - just one type in particular.

I'm glad you like the idea of a poll. I may consult you on the wording to ensure its not a populist move on my part.

It's not important for me to be right at all, Prokofy that's far too egotistical for me. It's much, much more important to be wrong and truly understand why you were wrong than it is to be right - in my book anyway.

It appears we're running in circles and are probably not going to see eye-to-eye on this.

All the best.

I find this very strange, I have always been able to work things out with neighbors, per haps I should just revert to the people skills, some have it others dont.

If you half knew me you would know I do not sit on my land simply building and ignore whats going on. I spend mny hours helping at the Welcome area, I spend many hours giving classes. Dont assume what I do, get the facts.

I know that you spend many hours at the Welcome Area, AND you are on Live Help because you have live-helped me

My remarks aren't directed at you personally but to the overall discussion here, making generic points. Just going over to chat is just not enough. It is just not enough. Period. It is not a question of people skills. It is not a question of game skills.

I know, because I can go on an unknown alt, to a neighbour, and type one line:

"Hi, how are you today?"

And they can answer:

"No, I don't want to sell my land bug off."

They may have been festering for days, thinking if youl lived next door and bought one square of land in front of you, that now you have set your hungry eye on the other square to the left of you.

They can answer in that way, or that's what they do answer? If so, just sounds like you just have mean neighbors.

I talk to strangers all the time, this has NEVER happened to me. Even though I buy and sell land. I've been in SL for weeks and I haven't met anyone unfriendly yet! (I did get griefed once.)

Buster