No Pay = No Value = No Play

I just had a second thought on the 'new economy'.

Now I think the Lindens did a very bad move taking out event funding money. Most of the good events disappeared, only very few left.

I think Linden Labs should pay for event hosts one way or another. I think it's indisputable that more good events = the more valuable SL is. And if SL gets more valuable, who wins? Linden Labs, because the game attracts more people, the ones who are inside play more, maybe have more land, spread the word, etc.

Is there a reason LL should get value for free? If their income is 1000 currency units per month, maybe if they spend 20 units on 'event sponsorship', they'll have an income of 1100 currency units next month, because the good events attract (or KEEP!) that many people.

Linden Labs say: if you want to play (have good events), host some, we provide a platform.
I say: if Linden Labs wants to have more and more players, paying more USD, they'll have to think of this as not only a platform, but a place that has 'maintenance costs'. Not only the coders, the bosses, the support, the servers, the bandwidth, but also the good events.

The only real question is the how?
How can Linden Labs pay just a fixed amount maximum per month and if possible, only for the best events? Who gets to say which event is good or bad?

Yes, these are good questions.
Maybe Linden Labs can have 'contracts' with event hosts, after evaluating the event description, or seeing a trial event, or maybe watching a few demo event sessions. After it's decided that the event is a 'valuable' one, they can make a contract that says 'you can host up to 20 events per month, we'll pay you 750 L$/event for each event held, and we reserve to cancel the agreement with 2 week's notice'

An at last, an analogy:
I can buy a plot of land in RL, and then charge 5 USD per person for entry, and they can do anything they wish inside. But who goes to a bare land?
Then, I can attract/subsidize entertainers to come there, and hold events. Yes, it might cost me some sum of money, maybe out of 5 USD i'll have to pay 50 cents out to entertainers. But, if people come and the business runs, who cares? I get my income (even increasing it), entertainers get their income, and people get their entertainment.

Maybe once SL will be just a platform and self-sustaining (including sponsored entertainment) but it seems that doesn't work yet. The rich (mostly) somehow don't seem to sponsor events, or employ people, so the economy is screwed in that matter, too.

call me crazy but it looks to me like we have just as many events as before.

personally, for me playing SL is the reward. LL don't have to pay me to play. i'm here cause it's fun. also i see the whole event system like the ratings system. it's something alot of people game for money and it's not really worth messing with. i haven't been to an event since october and i'm having plenty of fun.

alot of people who hold events have a business plan behind them anyways. people sell game cards or charge admission or get dwell or hold the event at their shop or club. same thing for the people who go to events since there's prizes and money (and used to be ratings) sometimes.

the rest of your stuff gets into the philosophy of SL is it a game and owes you entertainment or is it a "platform" and you get out what you put in? i'm more on the platform side i guess but it's got some of both and i don't think one's better than the other. trying to work that out is the recipe for an endless flame war anyways hehe.

so i guess what i'm trying to say is if anything i think LL should just stop paying for events completely and let the regular benefit event holders get and the fun and prizes event goers get be the reason they do events. it's either that or LL has to screen every single event to make sure the whole good events = valuable SL thing holds on. i think it's more like good players = good events = good SL.

ps: why do you say the economy's screwed? does that mean you don't have as much money as you would like or is there more? not pointing fingers or anything just saying if you're poor that doesn't necessarily mean the economy's screwed.

edit: just realized you said there are very few good events left, not that there are very few events left. well i kinda think there weren't many good events even when LL was paying. people take the easy way and it's alot easier to have the 20th sexy av contest of the day instead of teaching a class. i dunno how to encourage good events without leading to gaming it ("this is a prim. congrats you're all expert builders now where's my L$?" hehe) but i don't think paying people to have events is a solution at all.

The 'What about the poor people with no talent' thread is thataway -->

BTW, when someone comes up with a truly unique and interesting event and approaches me for sponsorship with more than a 'gimme your money for prizes and I'll mention your name' kinda offer, I'll gladly consider it. As it is, 99.9% of the events are held by lazy unimaginative sheep who don't deserve to be paid so much as a 1L$ cover charge frankly.

And no. I have zero interest in running any events before anyone comes up with the earth shatteringly original retort of 'so do it yourself if you think you can!'. I am not here to entertain you. I am here to entertain me

i agree with Kris, on the odd occasion that i check out the events, all i see it clubs and tringo. Nothing original, nothing new. Thats why ive been spending time creating stuff, learning LSL, and learning new PSP stuff.

I mean, when tringo first came out, it was a new and original idea, but then everyone was doing it :/ .

(btw, if you want to see some of the stuff ive made, click on the link in my sig . No pressure )

No, I didn't say LL 'owes you' entertainment. I said it's in their best interests to entertain people, so those people stay, come back and bring others.

The people who don't frequent events -- well, they'll still be here, entertainment or no, but the ones, who are just lazy and want fun are a big sector (big percentage) that's probably worth keeping and getting.



If you have a theme park, disneyland or a circus, you have to pay the entertainers. The entertainers bring (more) people, who bring more money.



I don't have that much money, that is true, but it's not anything I'm worrying about.
I worry about and miss Primtionaries, Quizzes, Show and Tells, 10 prim build events, etc.

When I held a quiz (back in the days), it took me about 30 minutes to prepare the questions, 40-50 minutes to do the quiz, chat, write the report, pay out, etc. I got L$ 250 for that, which is in no way that much, but at least I could give away some prize money (L$ 500) and not from my own purse

And why money? Because almost everything in SL costs L$'s, so this is the only universal 'buying applet'.

Where SL is standing now, well... I (or anyone) COULD make a foundation, pour lots of L$'s in it, and pay for (sponsor) only good events. This might be a way, too. But what do I get for that money? And what does Linden Labs get?

I get... dunno, publicity? A thanks? Yes, it's nice, but if i'm a capitalist (like a land baron), that shouldn't be 'worth it'.

Linden Labs gets... real value, the more good events there are, the more players there are the more cashflow they have.

As for inflation... yes, that's a problem that could be solved in some ways... maybe from 'sinks' (upload costs, rating money, maybe even a land sale tax, etc)

I'm not exactly sure what changed, though, but last summer and fall there were tons of good events, more than one for any day, yet now there are not really much.

This topic is the zombie horse from hell... beat it, burn it, carpet nuke it from orbit, but it comes back for more.

Maybe Lindens should provide funding for the 5-10 unique events of the day. That way there will be funding you just have to work for it and bring something new and creative to the events.

Maybe there's a reason for it coming back
The Lindens's january action codenamed "no government subsidies" doesn't seem to work.

Jamie Otis tried the "sponsorship" model for Primtionary, but i think somehow it didn't seem to work out. Not enough sponsors. For real, regular events, I think bigger sponsorships should be appropriate, like L$ 5000 that's enough for about 1-2 weeks of prizes and maybe even some 'pocket money' for the host. But who can give out this much L$'s to fund events? And why would he/she? Rich SL people don't seem to be throwing that kind of sponsorship money around to hosts, it seems. Maybe they don't care about image, as RL companies do?

I mean, if you're a land baron, people will buy your land, regardless of your image, company-advertising, because they only take the place, size and price into account.
I bought land from Anshe Chung, but it could've been anybody I bought that piece from... I wouldn't have cared.

BTW, let's do a quick calculation, just for fun... If there's a regular event, let's say every weekday, that's 22 days per month. If an event 'costs' $750 to sponsor, that's L$ 16500 per month. Too much for average Joe to throw in the hat... Even if only the host is payed, let's say $250/event (and no prize money is given out), that would be L$ 5500.

Converted to USD's, this is... 66 USD (for L$ 16500). But then you have only one good event per day. If we throw in 10 events, that's 660 USD. More, but still, don't tell me this amount of money (per month) would bankrupt Linden Labs. (I'm guessing their income at at least 100 000-200 000 USD per month.) Though I didn't account for 'man-hours' needed to manage and administer events, that's true.

But then again, if there's anyone rich out there, who has 660 USD per month + some man hours to make SL better, hey, step up and you'll be really fe^ted

What were these good events we are not missing out on? There are the same amount of crappy, non-event, events as their have always been. The people who do quality events, are still doing quality events, but there are what, 5 quality events a day, maybe if we are lucky. The rest are just ass parties.

Define "good event" though. It seems to be completely subjective.

Some people really loved the Hot Wet Schoolgirl in XXX Thongs contests if the forum posts and the number of events were any indication. Currently it seems like people love Tringo. I'm not interested in either.

It may just be that there are a lot of people, myself included, who don't care that much at the moment what events are going on because they are doing their own thing and don't want to go anywhere.

I think that the Lindens want people to vote with their ingenuity and pocketbook on what kind of events that they want. Perhaps even effect a change in the expectations. Do there have to be prizes? Why? etc.

Oddly I support government funding of the arts in RL, but that's because of the personal skill and training that many of the supported art forms require. Personally I would rather chew off a limb than sit through your average civic ballet company performance, but I recognize the skill and dedication it takes to produce and evenings entertainment. Come up with an event that contributes at the same level... and which costs at the same level and I'll favor Linden funding too. Or have the SL equivalent of Barishnakov do an event and I will pay to see it. (sorry Mikal about the spelling)

I fund my own events and it works out just fine. Don't depend on Da Man, do it Yo Damn Self.

I don't understand what your problem is. If you want hold event come to my stages and earn 250 L$ - 1000 L$ per event. Just click on link to my website to find out details.

Its not the about the money, its about --can you keep my attention.

My opinion, as professional grown educated adults on a virtual world game/platform - we all have a real short attention span and we get bored with each other quickly. We like other peoples ideas - we want to see them - talk with them, laugh with them, get to know them, and then within 20 minutes - been there - done that - got the T-shirt. As adults, we like our own ideas and creativity, we want people to notice us and spend an hour with us - and acknowledge our cool idea.

Sometime in the absence of anything new and exciting to do, or any friend to chat at ends with, we stare at the monitor and see how much Lindens we can rack up. "Oh cool, I made $250 today!"

Before Christmas all I ever saw on here was the whining about no good events in SL. Damn the clubs and all the sexy av contests. Other people heard it too and came up with some very creative challenging events. Some friends and I ran a two month series that basically spotlighted all these other events and their locations - and guess what. Turn out was not that great, it generated some interest, but not much. We paid out lots of money and prizes and so did our hosts. We did it for fun and to entertain ourselves and to give something to the SL community. It wasnt about dwell, it wasnt about gaining money, it was about logging on for the evening and having something to do that was different.

Am I sad that the "creative events" didnt generate a mass of screaming avatars all jumping up and down doing the wave and chanting woot woot woot. Well yes I guess I am. Am I surprized? Not at all. Most of us in SL got bored with Sims, and we got bored with There, and eventually im sure some day some other game/platform will spark our interest - and we will all go check it out. Until then, we will all build our shiny new objects on our little piece of land and look out of the corner of our eyes to see what funny clever thing our neighbors are doing. Maybe I stop what Im doing for 20 minutes and go take a look see.

It's not all bleak. I do miss being able to find a Primtionary game every day or Jeopardy or a trivia quiz, but honestly I wasn't playing those as much anyway.

The defunding of events change hit just as my group increased our land holdings in Zoe significantly so we could hold really large scale building contests. The change hasn't altered how we operate very much, and we seem to be doing quite well with the contests. We have had some really popular build contests in the last month or two, including building bridges, miniature landscapes, and mazes. What makes our contests unique is that we give builders large prim allocations (500 or 1000 even) and a week to do their work. As a result we see some really remarkable creations, so we leave them up for a week afterward for people to come by and see. This doesn't show up on the event listing every day, but oh well.

Are our events commercially viable for us? Hell no. We'll never see a profit on them, or even break even. But it's a lot of fun and all us Codas enjoy using the land this way. So far we've been able to get really good sponsorship so we always have great prizes and even some award money. Maybe in a few months when we've established ourselves as the premiere build contest in SL and everyone wants to take part and we have to set up a waiting list, we'll start asking an entrance fee to help fund prize money. *shrug* I'm not in this for the money, I'm in it for the fun. So far, we're having fun, and our contestants are too.

We have 120 events a day. I remember when we used to have 15 - 20 a day. Even if people hosted other types of events for the funding you wouldn't be able to find them until they add a way to filter words (like tringo for instance).

Olmy sounds like you got a great combination going there. I would love to check building contests out. Sounds like fun. Can you send me an LM in world. Are you the one that had the Dr Seuss building contest that I heard about?

Your example can be totally implemented without subsidies from LL. If people put on quality events that are of high value, and people are willing to pay to attend (as with most RL events), performers or hosts can be paid, a good time can be had, and the person organizing it can earn money. The key is getting people to pay for events that they find worthwhile.

This is an area I am getting into, and I totally don't expect subsidies from LL. Either my events ought to sustain themselves on the basis of admissions or donations, or I can find sponsors that will benefit from promotion at the events. (And, some events, like simple discussion events, are worth putting on without an expectation of profit.)

I think I've seen some proposals on the forums for voluntary contributions from users toward funding organizations for events that are worth supporting. This, I believe, is the way to go about supporting events that need subsidies. It provides a market that allows users to decide what is worth supporting.

As I've pointed out in /120/f3/37316/2.html#post402553 there are tons of things people spend money on, including online, on a regular basis. Why are they so reluctant to spend additional money in SL? Part of the answer to that is simply what is available so far. There is a huge opportunity to use SL as a platform, for people who are able to come up with things people are willing to pay for.

Tang you ant going visiting till you get that 33,000 meters of Homstead Setup, Dr Seuss will simply have to wait I'll buy you a book ! lol

your indearing partner,
-Waves

Zu,

If you are going to write long prose like this, instead of your usual one-line zingers, I am going to lose respect for you!

Bo

Dag nab it Waves, unlock the ball and chain! I want to go play!

I dont wanna build no more! "Crosses arms and pouts"

You actually did this? It must've been US time, not Euro, because 'hightlighting good events' doesn't ring a bell in my memories...



Yes, this is totally cool, but you financed it with (maybe) real money. It's very generous, but probably unsustainable in a larger scale or longterm -- I bet you can't offer 700 USD/month for this purpose.

Another point, a new one, is dwell awards. Dwell awards were thought out as a way to 'motivate and compensate people to create value for Linden Labs by attracting users and raising the overall game experience'.

Which would be good, as clubs do offer things, socialization possibilities, meeting places, fun, etc. That's okay.

But other than clubs, does a single person who holds an event a day (let's say a very cool event), have any chance to get dwell awards? No, I think not. Although he also creates value, raises gaming experience (with the variety of events, too).

Maybe a private foundation is not a bad idea, but still, will the 'riches' donate? Or will only the poorer people pour real USD's to have fun and subsidize others?

Yes, it was called Survivor and it was a catchy way of sim hopping and doing challenging events with the same group of ppl. Oh by the way, we had 50% British and Australian players on on the teams. They would be logging in at 3AM their time - just to participate in the challenges. Thats dedication!!!.

Your right, I could not afford to continue doing those for a long term. We spent alot of our own Linden money to give them prizes. But also keep in mind, that the players who were on the teams, I felt that overall they really did not hang alot of leverage on the money. They were there every week just to see what new challenge we had in store for them. The money was just an added bonus. And again, the team players and hosts were there, the outside spectators were low. Overall, I still rate it as a great success because we had fun. Its back to the same old question then, do you want a big turn out of avatars for the sake of having a big turn out, or do you want alot of fun with a few avatars because you have great content.

Very good point about dwell. It doesn't reward based on the quality of the experience, but just on how many bodies are present. On the other hand, event subsidies were just based on having an event, and also didn't distinguish between quality or attendence, did they?

As for foundations, one way to motivate people (and especially the richer ones or organizations) is to publicize who donated what. This is almost like sponsorship at a certain point, where organizations pay to have their logo or ad up, and gain visibility.

Advertising, at least in its simplest form ("this event was brought to you in part through support from....", is a common way things are funded in RL or other media channels like television. And I think that just suggesting that people donate, or charging admission once an event develops a following, is straightforward enough. If value is generated for the attendee, why wouldn't most people be willing to contribute? People don't seem to have a major problem with having to pay to see a movie or take a class.

Sheep are holding events and I wasn't told?
I would be more than happy to sponsor any sheep hosted events.

You've failed to establish that it didn't work. A decrease in the number of pathetic leaches with worthless events would definitely seem to be a success to me.