No Pay = No Value = No Play

I'm a new player and I won't pay to attend things because there really isn't any way to make money. Plus I get just $50 subsidy.

coco

Maybe I'm too picky, but a few months ago I could just log on almost anytime (Euro time) and in a 3-5 hour timeframe, there would be at least 2 or 3 events worth visiting. That's building ones, quizzes, etc. Maybe the "good event" term is too subjective, but let's say 'creative or intellectual events'. Sometimes art gallery openings, fireworks, etc. Some kinds of events were rare, but you had many more of that type, instead of all this sexy avatar/clothing and bingo/tringo thing.

That's fine coco - nothing wrong with this -- your choice. But I'm gonna be a little blunt here -- not to be mean, but to just put the truth on the table: you get the $50 subsidy because you are currently a perpetual-trial player of SL, rather than a full customer. Depending on how you explore SL and use SL, you might decide to join as a customer and pay a few bucks a month. Then you will get at minimum, $L2000 a month.

SL is not ready for the masses. The technology is not quite there (you can't even get that many avatars in one sim), but definitely making progress. It is not in LL's interest to grow too fast in terms of population because they could fall flat with the broader population and miss their window of opportunity. Instead, they need to grow at a reasonable pace, build a content creator/event designer community that keeps slightly ahead of the available technology.

When there is the capability to build amazing events of significant scale that hold lots of people, there is so much creativity in SL I have no doubt it will happen (without special treatment from LL). Just look at what bedazzle does with the tools at hand!

personally

I notice there are no more mentor programs

no more prim classes

and scripting classes seem too advanced for the average JOE
I suggest scripting classes to inform what NOT to do
discuss lag...etc etc


I think a 101 build class should be required for all newbies

"Required"? Good luck with that plan. This isn't a dictatorship.

ya I know

regretted the word after I wrote it

gently suggesting that newbies attend classes.. IF they can find any....

Compare the events schedule prior to January 17 to the one we have now. I am one of those events hosts that people are quick to put down. I have actual rl training in this that I apply as an arts manager. I have hosted sceners competitions in which people improvise within 15 or less minutes and a given scenario, poet's open mics, Round Robin storytelling, truth or dares (using my own system and machine for the truths and dares) and acrophobia. Are these unimaginative? What do you base the idea of this on? Seems like Kris and others have made rude generalizations about a category of service providers.

It is easy to criticize from the outside something in which one has no interest. If one doesn't have an interest in events, fine. Don't go. But why say that no one else should make them or do them and get paid for what they do? To host a Quality event, it takes me a minimum of 5 hours preparation. That is aside from even running the event! To do this for $250 was already a public service of sorts, compared to what other services and products make. I'd love to talk to you and to Kris or to Anyone in world who thinks that events hosts can make their money or *game it* in some other way other than gambling or posting giant billboards all over there places. Now when I host events it is all public service. The maximum I have ever made from dwell for an event is $100 (less than a big club's moneyball spits out every hour). The reason that there are less quality events now is that the people who are best at them were basically told not only by the Lindens, but by the people on the forums (with the exception of a few people who struggled to find an answer to the actual dillemma) that events suck, events hosts are dumb or cheating or on welfare, and we don't like events anyway. Imagine if anyone providing ANY other service were similarly categorically dismissed. There are builds and scripts with higher and lesser quality, but we do not summarily dismiss people in those categories as being all without worth. I would Love to speak with people in world about this in an actual dialogue, but events-hosts-bashing really should stop. It just makes nice people feel bad for trying to make a more interesting or interactive place. Good 2nd life to you. ~ Cherry

You host events Alby? What and where?

The problem for me is not that you are willing to pay to host events (thanks coz you are one of the few who actually backed promises to help out the events community with action) but rather that people seem to believe that events hosts are worthless and don't deserve to be paid. Also, If I host an event on land I don't own, I can't kick people off when they come to burn crosses onstage (as two goofuses did during one of my poet's open mic events). Because I didn't own or control the land, it took about 30 minutes for my event to be workable, after the particle bombs were dying down, the lindens and property owners were summoned and abuse reports were filed. I don't relish that kind of experience again. Nonetheless, Anshe, thank you for making some significant offer. I'm sure some folks will take you up on it. Personally, I want control to kick people off.

Events hosts and club owners are actually shooting themselves in the foot by not banding together here and saying okay, $5 admission minimum for all events. The reason they don't? Well, the very very big clubs who have a shot at competing for the dwell awards don't want to be put out of competition for THAT (against the malls and other places) just because they sided with small club owners and also charged $5 admission.

Ty Anshe for your offer, though, and also thanks to the folks who are genuinely interested in keeping SL a vital place socially as well as economically.

Can we put this on a button under Forum Tools? There are a few other threads that need it.

Isn't burning a topic inflammatory? hehe. umm, look just coz you don't like what some people are saying doesn't mean they have to shut up. Often when a topic resurfaces again and again, it is a sign that there is an unresolved issue that should be looked at. Shoving it under the carpet (even if you beat it and burn it) won't make it go away. I like the name of this thread TONS better than the poor people with no talent. I have tons of talent! Just ask me! hehe. ~ Cherry

The sponsor model doesn't work because products that sell well enough to pay for advertising obviously don't need it.

How do you know the sponsor model doesn't work? I've found it to be quite workable. We haven't had any problem getting sponsors for our contests, and a number of them have reported sales directly from their advertising with us. Giving away a free item costs a sponsor nothing except perhaps cannibalizing a potential cash sale, so if they sell one item as a result of their sponsorship they break even and anything beyond that is profit.

SL is a big place, and not everyone can find out about all the cool stuff out there. Advertising always makes sense, and sponsoring an event is about the least expensive way to get expanded visibility.

Cherry, I think the most common argument that people are making here is exactly the opposite of that. Event hosts definitely deserve to be paid, but not by LL. They should be paid by the people they are providing a service for... the people who attend the events.

Tang, the Dr. Seuss build contest was a Montmartre event. The Artistes will be announcing another cool contest any day now.

Lance said, "The sponsor model doesn't work because products that sell well enough to pay for advertising obviously don't need it."

You underestimate my greed. Yeah, my stuff sells well enough to pay for advertising. But I want to sell even more stuff. Swimming in my vat of L$ like Scrooge McDuck is great, but I want it deep enough to add a diving board.

I rarely donate cash prizes, though, because I'm a BIG FAT GREEDY HOG! Ahem. No, actually, I don't enjoy getting cash prizes as much as I enjoy winning merchandise. For me, it's a lot more fun to win interesting goodies -- it's the surprise that's the fun part.

Anyway, I sponsor a lot of events, and I was donating event prizes months before the change in event funding. I'm happy to send a box of goodies to any event host. Yeah, sure, I hope that it'll bring me more customers, but a surprising percentage of event hosts don't put up the sign or hand out the landmark notecard and even forget to mention my name when they hand out the prizes. So, really, I do it to help out friends who run events, and because I like seeing a full event calendar, and because I like winning stuff myself. Someone's gotta kick in the prizes, and I do my part.

Wow I thought this was going to be a "You get what you pay for" thread

lol boy was I wrong, this is a "I wants my welfare for my bebbies" thread

Welfare? If people are paying 50 000 USD/month for SL (another guess), can they expect to get some events included in that price, let's say, 1000 USD/month? If there are dwelleloper incentives, why isn't there 'good event incentives'?

Do you, living in a capitalist country, get some things for free?
Do you pay for entry to parks, the July 4th celebrations, etc? Or are those things 'included in the price'? In my country, theaters get some government subsidies, because many wouldn't break even. Non-mainstream culture sometimes doesn't pay, but still, it's needed.

I'm not saying LL should throw money at any event host, but maybe have tenders and 'order entertainment' from some hosts. Yes, there's a problem of bias, but that might exist anyway.

Eg. how about having a Show and Tell every day? It's a fun event, even newer players have a chance to get creative and get rewarded for it.

Huh? $50,000 USD? Where are you pulling this number from? And don't forget to balance it with a WAG as to all the expenses involved in running SL.

We have content development incentives. If you create something that people think is valuable and desireable, they give you $L for it. If you do this a lot, and want to, you can then trade it for USD. You may create something you think is awesome, but if you can't get the word out, or if people don't agree, well then you are S.O.L.

Why shouldn't events work the same way? Put on an event that people want to see enough that they are willing to pay a nominal entrance charge for.

The Linden's provide us with a basically empty world and some tools. It's up to us to take it from there.

There are still Linden-subsidized events, though.
The tutorial/mentor events are paid by Lindens. Why? Why don't those classes ask for money?

Maybe there's a scenario where the event host would need to collect L$ 600/event to 'break even' (be paid okay for his time). But then, the income might only reach L$ 400, because that's the amount people are willing to pay for this 'item'.

So, what happens in this case?
Economically, if the 'item' is worth more than people are willing to pay, noone will produce that 'item'. So, if classes can't be self-sustaining, they would totally disappear. UNLESS, Linden Labs says 'hey, classes are important to US, they mean a value to us, so we'll subsidize it because it makes value to SL and attracts people and business to us, LL'.

So, it's not evident that no other event should be subsidized. Maybe there are good events that aren't economically viable for an in-game person but still, they provide great value to LL.

There are around 2900* land-holding people, if I'm right.

I'm multiplying that 2900 by 20 bucks (guess average payment, 7-10 is the basic monthly fee, but many hold more land thus pay more), that gives around 50 000 USD.

I think this is an underestimate, though.

* The data for calculating 2900 paying people (which is 100%, is 2% is 58 people) is available here:
/3/b3/34802/1.html

You have a good point. The answer then is for people to put together proposals detailing how LL will benefit from a particular event and market it to them.

The economy is not "screwed." You may not agree with the LL approach but I wouldn't classify it as screwed. In a robust economy, there is no need for government subsidies. Some will argue but I would say the economy is fairly robust. The exchange rate seems to hover between $4.00 - 4.10. Property sales are good for many of us who are into real estate. I can't speak for designers but all-in-all things seem well.

So, the primary issue for this thread comes back to events and whether LL should put more money into them. I don't see why they should. First and you mentioned this, what events are going to be deemed worthy. As we all saw from the WSJ, Mr. Tringo did very well for himself. The events helped him out a great deal. To me, economic stimulus is a good reason to have events yet the proliferation of Tringo events seems to irk some around here. So, does LL pay for the Tringo events or the "how to build" events? If LL came out and said they would subsidize events related to building we'd have a million events on how to build and then people would be pissed at that.

The point here is that you are not going to satisfy everyone, the government should not subsidize en masse and the economy is fine.

There was a thread here for a charitable group that was looking to help fund events they found worthy of their efforts. I support this private approach to this issue.

(says Perse) As far as I know there is no economy on the planet that survives without any government subsidy. RL governments subsidize corporations as well as the arts and culture and sports and education. What support do you have for the assertion that in a robust economy there is no need for government subsidies? Is there some case to which you can point to prove this assertion? It seems rather pulled out of thin air.

(says Bruno) In a robust economy, there is no need for government subsidies.


(says Perse) I would love it if there were a group that was interested in promoting and funding events that bring community together. Unfortunately, we are hearing about the volunteer interests of a handful who, judging from another thread I have followed, seem to be giving up. I would have loved to see the Lindens, when they decided to make this move, hire someone to actually coordinate this kind of effort. They would still save money: hire the person at the same rate they were paying out in events hosts and contest subsidies without having to pay the administrative costs for one of their staff to file the reports etc. They save money and someone will be accountable for the creation of this type of resource for events hosts to liase with private foundations. In RL, purveyors of arts and culture have access to both government subsidies and private industry. It is only through the latticing of these resources that RL arts and culture organizations can survive.

(supports her assertion by pointing to the National Endowment for the Arts, multitudes of state funds, corporate foundations and private foundations as accessible through the Foundation Center among others.)

(says Bruno) There was a thread here for a charitable group that was looking to help fund events they found worthy of their efforts. I support this private approach to this issue.[/QUOTE]

(quoting previous Poster) Why shouldn't events work the same way? Put on an event that people want to see enough that they are willing to pay a nominal entrance charge for.

(says Perse) To do this you need to retrain people in a gigantic paradigm shift from being paid to attend to paying to attend. To break even with cash prizes and paying hosts on a very modest level (the $250 flat rate they were paid prior to January 1 one would have to charge a minimum of $20 at the door per person. That is assuming 15 attendees, and a cash prize of only $50. Most attendee numbers are smaller than 15. To pay events hosts what they are worth (good ones put in hours of advance time to promote events and set them up) is impossible under a door-charge recovery scheme. Dwell only can make up the difference if the owner is a megaclub owner or real estate magnate capable of pulling in the 2% top traffic awards. Otherwise, cost recovery is impossible without sponsorship from somewhere. If businesses give prizes, that's the prize taken care of, but who pays the hosts? By the way, I have heard people complain that $5 was too much for an event, even when it was a "quality" arts event. I am not saying this is a mean person, or an isolated idea. I am saying that this is indicative of how big a job events hosts have ahead of them, and judging from this thread and the lack of response by Lindens or favourable forum response from the community of folks who aren't events hosts themselves (the ones who say we are whining for welfare for instance, using the worst kind of blaming, erroneous argument (see Ferran Brodsky post, for example)) it is a difficult to impossible task that they are asked to do all on their own with little to no community support. Is it any wonder that so many have thrown in the towel?

Chip Midnight claims that folks are actually interested in seeing events hosts be paid and that they think the work of events hosts is worth something. When I look back at some of the things people have posted about welfare seekers, uncreative and untalented hosts (99.9 percent according to one poster) etc., I think that perhaps this is the minority of people who post who aren't themselves club owners or events hosts. I would never ever ever dream of saying that 99.9% of builders are talentless, yet some folks have no qualm about saying this of events hosts. If I seem to have my back up, it is because the 'dissing' of events hosts continues, and appears to be relentless. The simple fact is that if you crunch the numbers only the mega clubs and independently wealthy will be able to pay events hosts anything approximating what their time's worth would be if they were applying their talents to other endeavours. I suspect that most will begin building furniture and that we will continue to see the uberclubs and tringo events and very very little else on the slate unless it is done out of the generosity of the person hosting.

Now all that said, a very few individuals (4 of them) have donated $L to continue the events I do and I want to say that folks who donate cash or in-kind prizes are added to the *Sponsors List* on permanent display in the centre of my spa. This is a tactic that other small club or events/space owners may use to garner funds from those interested in perpetuating arts and culture. I hope that some centrally-administered (likely Linden-funded) arts and culture foundation might happen. I think it is the only way that we will regain the diverse culture we had prior to January 17. Thanks for being kind enough to read my words. I would be Happy to talk to anyone in game about this. I really really want to see an environment with lots of fun things to do for new folks in game who don't have well-established social groups, and even for older folks in game who are tired of working on their *second jobs*. ;-D

When you cite the NEA... those grants are done individually after submitting a RPF (request for proposal) or done under an umbrella request by an arts organization. We do have similar instances in SL. Groups have submitted proposals to LL for support of various kinds for large scale projects. The key factor is demonstrating to LL that the project promotes LL's goals.

Now is the time to retrain people, not down the road when the world is 10 times its size. I don't have my crystal ball to the Linden's, but my best guess is that they agree.

I don't disagree with Arts for Arts sake support. But I don't agree that it is needed here. RL government subsidizes skills that take a lifetime to acquire and polish: dance, painting, music. I have yet to see an event host with those kinds of skills or who makes those kind of contributions. And RL government grants go to the artists, not the venues. The venues are expected to survive on ticket sales, advertising, etc.... or get a better business model.

Just as scripters, animators, and designers have to develop what sells, if sales matter to them, so do event hosts in the current environment. If you have something valuable to SL... promote it to the Lindens.