Second Life Forums Archive - No Pay = No Value = No Play

Zonax Delorean

Registered User

Join date: 5 Jun 2004

Posts: 767

03-11-2005 05:41

A new question into the thread: what would happen in Dwelleloper Incentives were pulled?

Would there be any more events? Would clubs close? Where do clubs get their money from?

Forseti Svarog

ESC

Join date: 2 Nov 2004

Posts: 1,730

03-11-2005 08:24

Racer, i don't disagree with the concepts but to nitpick i would say they do not apply at scale. If a single person pulls their entire stipend out thru GOM, the "paid to play" argument works. However, if everyone did this, the $L would be massively devalued and the math would no longer work.

Buster's post is dead-on. people pay for events that promise value (entertainment or otherwise). If they are not willing to pay it either means

A. that the event does not provide enough value to that particular person; value can be defined in many ways but in the end it is an individual/personal formula.
B. the person believes they can get equivalent value-for-the-money (free and for-fee) activities elsewhere (including standing around in ahern or playing in the sandbox)
C. they are completely broke in SL, and unwilling or unable to buy L$ with RL$.

The lessons you see in real life for what people will and will not pay for are useful and applicable.

There are people who are broke and unable to go to the movies. There are people who love movies so much they will eat peanut butter for dinner so they have the money for the ticket. There are people who find movies boring who can't imagine paying for a ticket.

Where you event falls down in this mix simply has to do with how many people are online looking for events at the time you want to host it, how many people of that subset would actually be interested in attending, and then of that subset where your event falls in the value-formula in their brain.

I say enjoy SL as best you can. If hosting events is fun, then by all means host events! If you want to get paid, however, then you need to put your business hat on and examine what the market will support, where demand lies, what the startup costs are, and the barriers to competition.

(ps I know i am combining like 10 different threads in this one post. go figure)

Persephone Phoenix

loving laptopvideo2go.com

Join date: 5 Nov 2004

Posts: 1,012

Dwelloper Incentives

03-11-2005 09:08

Some very very big clubs get into the top 2% of traffic and are able to compete with people who simply own a sim's worth of real estate or more. Most clubs or club like organizations are on much smaller land masses, making it more difficult to compete with malls and uber land tract owners.

IF one is able to pack a place every night and have staff to pull people in during the day, and if one is willing to invest rl $ from buying it for a month or two, one might get into that top 2%. I have been part of a team that got a club up there one month, but that's when the Lindens helped to support events.

If the Dwelloper Incentives were pulled, even the uber-clubs would no longer have any reason to host events. The Dwelloper Incentives are their only real payoff: the only thing that makes it worthwhile aside from having the pride of having a big, festive, lively club.

Most smaller clubs or events houses (the spa isn't very club like, but we host events regularly) dream of getting into that top 2%, but honestly don't likely have the resources that other larger organizations with more landmass do. Landmass is key here, because traffic can add up just from someone stopping on your land to fix his or her avatar's baldspot. I think, just like middle class people dream of someday being Donald Trump, some of us smaller orgs like to imagine ourselves in the big club position someday, so even though it would be a leveller, not one many small club owners are likely to support (the removal of Dwelloper Incentives).

~ Perse

From: Zonax Delorean

A new question into the thread: what would happen in Dwelleloper Incentives were pulled?

Would there be any more events? Would clubs close? Where do clubs get their money from?

_____________________

Events are everyone's business.

Pol Tabla

synthpop saint

Join date: 18 Dec 2003

Posts: 1,041

03-11-2005 09:14

From: Persephone Phoenix

Landmass is key here, because traffic can add up just from someone stopping on your land to fix his or her avatar's baldspot.

Oh, you saw that? I'm mortified.

_____________________

Byron McHenry

Registered User

Join date: 21 Sep 2004

Posts: 204

03-11-2005 09:38

From: Zonax Delorean

I just had a second thought on the 'new economy'.

Now I think the Lindens did a very bad move taking out event funding money. Most of the good events disappeared, only very few left.

I think Linden Labs should pay for event hosts one way or another. I think it's indisputable that more good events = the more valuable SL is. And if SL gets more valuable, who wins? Linden Labs, because the game attracts more people, the ones who are inside play more, maybe have more land, spread the word, etc.

Is there a reason LL should get value for free? If their income is 1000 currency units per month, maybe if they spend 20 units on 'event sponsorship', they'll have an income of 1100 currency units next month, because the good events attract (or KEEP!) that many people.

Linden Labs say: if you want to play (have good events), host some, we provide a platform.
I say: if Linden Labs wants to have more and more players, paying more USD, they'll have to think of this as not only a platform, but a place that has 'maintenance costs'. Not only the coders, the bosses, the support, the servers, the bandwidth, but also the good events.

The only real question is the how?
How can Linden Labs pay just a fixed amount maximum per month and if possible, only for the best events? Who gets to say which event is good or bad?

Yes, these are good questions.
Maybe Linden Labs can have 'contracts' with event hosts, after evaluating the event description, or seeing a trial event, or maybe watching a few demo event sessions. After it's decided that the event is a 'valuable' one, they can make a contract that says 'you can host up to 20 events per month, we'll pay you 750 L$/event for each event held, and we reserve to cancel the agreement with 2 week's notice'

An at last, an analogy:
I can buy a plot of land in RL, and then charge 5 USD per person for entry, and they can do anything they wish inside. But who goes to a bare land?
Then, I can attract/subsidize entertainers to come there, and hold events. Yes, it might cost me some sum of money, maybe out of 5 USD i'll have to pay 50 cents out to entertainers. But, if people come and the business runs, who cares? I get my income (even increasing it), entertainers get their income, and people get their entertainment.

Maybe once SL will be just a platform and self-sustaining (including sponsored entertainment) but it seems that doesn't work yet. The rich (mostly) somehow don't seem to sponsor events, or employ people, so the economy is screwed in that matter, too.

it was done becuase of clubs and repeat game events1 generally now this game population is based around clubs and its quite annoying becasue no one see your stuff no one buys it no onee supports is and builders are compeating for a nonexistance audence

then whats the point

Racer Plisskin

Rezerator

Join date: 2 Jan 2005

Posts: 147

03-11-2005 15:48

From: Buster Peel

Monthly players are getting the raw end of the deal? I think you're arguing with yourself! SL has great entertainment value. How many hours can you spend in a movie theatre for the same amount of money as your SL fees? How much are you paying for cable TV? What's your bar tab in an average month?

Divide what you put into it by what you get out of it. How many hours do you spend in SL (or in the forums, if that's your bag)? How many dollars do you pay for that per hour? Net net?

What a great entertainment value. Why bother to justify it? I spend money all the time on lots of things, and I pay what it costs to get what I want. Hey, pay the bill and have a good time. You can afford it. It's worth it if you like it. Pay montly if that's easier. I pay monthly for my car because its easier. It costs more, but its easier.

Buster

OK, perhaps overstaing the case a bit to make a point

I meant the monthly premium account players get the least return for their investment. In the hypothetical case of total cashout of an account, they are the only account type currently opperating at a loss to the player.

Also, try not to take anything I say too seriously for the last few weeks and probably the next few as well. I have been opperating with a 'hair trigger' lately as I have been dealing with rediculous problems at work that are now THANKFULLY over. I'll prolly be decompressing for at least another week or so tho.

Untill then, I'm lible to get cranky without notice...

Lastly, unless you want to own lots of land or a private island, I agreee whole heartedly with you that SL is just about the cheapest form of quality entertainment I have ever found.

To all the Lindens: Keep up the great work!

Racer P.

Persephone Phoenix

loving laptopvideo2go.com

Join date: 5 Nov 2004

Posts: 1,012

Sad to See it isn't working out

03-19-2005 18:37

As I said a couple of weeks ago, I hoped agencies like Iron Perth would step up to bat and make partnerships with events hosts. So far, after repeated Instant Messages, I have gotten no response from Iron Perth other than a brief and very very general message that indicated that they represented a currency exchange. We have asked to be sponsored, and indicated our willingness to give them advertising in exchange for this, but so far they have quit responding to IMs, (my manager never got a single response at all, and I who have IMed 3 times, got only a vague one). Has anyone heard from Iron Perth? and are they making event subsidies happen?

From: Persephone Phoenix

(says Perse) This is getting real: there are less events than there were and less varied events than there were. People who don't care to go to events, don't care that there are less or that they are less varied. People who did go to events, might. New people in game rely on events far more for socialization than people who have been ingame longer. Some folks like the festivity of an event, even after being here awhile. Good events schedules are good business for the Lindens and everyone else. I never bought a gown (and would have been unlikely to) had there not been a formal Masquerade to attend. It was likewise an event that caused me to buy my first furry costume. It was the desire to host unique events that made me connect with scripters, eventually (as I got money, which was gradual) able to hire one who was able to help me craft the Truth or Dare machine. Events were what caused me to circulate my $L. I look forward to chatting with Iron Perth about their sponsorship program and am happy to see an organization respond to this need. I'm happy to make partnerships in the business community and to hear something other than what feels like *shut up and build* or *you have nothing of worth to offer unless you can convince people to pay $20 each to attend*

As for discussions of this kind, when issues emerge and re-emerge, it often means that the issue is unresolved. It is always better to discuss unresolved issues than to cover them up and paste on a happy face to avoid conflict.

_____________________

Events are everyone's business.

No Pay = No Value = No Play
Zonax Delorean Registered User Join date: 5 Jun 2004 Posts: 767	03-11-2005 05:41 A new question into the thread: what would happen in Dwelleloper Incentives were pulled? Would there be any more events? Would clubs close? Where do clubs get their money from?
Forseti Svarog ESC Join date: 2 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,730	03-11-2005 08:24 Racer, i don't disagree with the concepts but to nitpick i would say they do not apply at scale. If a single person pulls their entire stipend out thru GOM, the "paid to play" argument works. However, if everyone did this, the $L would be massively devalued and the math would no longer work. Buster's post is dead-on. people pay for events that promise value (entertainment or otherwise). If they are not willing to pay it either means A. that the event does not provide enough value to that particular person; value can be defined in many ways but in the end it is an individual/personal formula. B. the person believes they can get equivalent value-for-the-money (free and for-fee) activities elsewhere (including standing around in ahern or playing in the sandbox) C. they are completely broke in SL, and unwilling or unable to buy L$ with RL$. The lessons you see in real life for what people will and will not pay for are useful and applicable. There are people who are broke and unable to go to the movies. There are people who love movies so much they will eat peanut butter for dinner so they have the money for the ticket. There are people who find movies boring who can't imagine paying for a ticket. Where you event falls down in this mix simply has to do with how many people are online looking for events at the time you want to host it, how many people of that subset would actually be interested in attending, and then of that subset where your event falls in the value-formula in their brain. I say enjoy SL as best you can. If hosting events is fun, then by all means host events! If you want to get paid, however, then you need to put your business hat on and examine what the market will support, where demand lies, what the startup costs are, and the barriers to competition. (ps I know i am combining like 10 different threads in this one post. go figure)
Persephone Phoenix loving laptopvideo2go.com Join date: 5 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,012	Dwelloper Incentives 03-11-2005 09:08 Some very very big clubs get into the top 2% of traffic and are able to compete with people who simply own a sim's worth of real estate or more. Most clubs or club like organizations are on much smaller land masses, making it more difficult to compete with malls and uber land tract owners. IF one is able to pack a place every night and have staff to pull people in during the day, and if one is willing to invest rl $ from buying it for a month or two, one might get into that top 2%. I have been part of a team that got a club up there one month, but that's when the Lindens helped to support events. If the Dwelloper Incentives were pulled, even the uber-clubs would no longer have any reason to host events. The Dwelloper Incentives are their only real payoff: the only thing that makes it worthwhile aside from having the pride of having a big, festive, lively club. Most smaller clubs or events houses (the spa isn't very club like, but we host events regularly) dream of getting into that top 2%, but honestly don't likely have the resources that other larger organizations with more landmass do. Landmass is key here, because traffic can add up just from someone stopping on your land to fix his or her avatar's baldspot. I think, just like middle class people dream of someday being Donald Trump, some of us smaller orgs like to imagine ourselves in the big club position someday, so even though it would be a leveller, not one many small club owners are likely to support (the removal of Dwelloper Incentives). ~ Perse From: Zonax Delorean A new question into the thread: what would happen in Dwelleloper Incentives were pulled? Would there be any more events? Would clubs close? Where do clubs get their money from? _____________________ Events are everyone's business.
Pol Tabla synthpop saint Join date: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,041	03-11-2005 09:14 From: Persephone Phoenix Landmass is key here, because traffic can add up just from someone stopping on your land to fix his or her avatar's baldspot. Oh, you saw that? I'm mortified. _____________________
Byron McHenry Registered User Join date: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 204	03-11-2005 09:38 From: Zonax Delorean I just had a second thought on the 'new economy'. Now I think the Lindens did a very bad move taking out event funding money. Most of the good events disappeared, only very few left. I think Linden Labs should pay for event hosts one way or another. I think it's indisputable that more good events = the more valuable SL is. And if SL gets more valuable, who wins? Linden Labs, because the game attracts more people, the ones who are inside play more, maybe have more land, spread the word, etc. Is there a reason LL should get value for free? If their income is 1000 currency units per month, maybe if they spend 20 units on 'event sponsorship', they'll have an income of 1100 currency units next month, because the good events attract (or KEEP!) that many people. Linden Labs say: if you want to play (have good events), host some, we provide a platform. I say: if Linden Labs wants to have more and more players, paying more USD, they'll have to think of this as not only a platform, but a place that has 'maintenance costs'. Not only the coders, the bosses, the support, the servers, the bandwidth, but also the good events. The only real question is the how? How can Linden Labs pay just a fixed amount maximum per month and if possible, only for the best events? Who gets to say which event is good or bad? Yes, these are good questions. Maybe Linden Labs can have 'contracts' with event hosts, after evaluating the event description, or seeing a trial event, or maybe watching a few demo event sessions. After it's decided that the event is a 'valuable' one, they can make a contract that says 'you can host up to 20 events per month, we'll pay you 750 L$/event for each event held, and we reserve to cancel the agreement with 2 week's notice' An at last, an analogy: I can buy a plot of land in RL, and then charge 5 USD per person for entry, and they can do anything they wish inside. But who goes to a bare land? Then, I can attract/subsidize entertainers to come there, and hold events. Yes, it might cost me some sum of money, maybe out of 5 USD i'll have to pay 50 cents out to entertainers. But, if people come and the business runs, who cares? I get my income (even increasing it), entertainers get their income, and people get their entertainment. Maybe once SL will be just a platform and self-sustaining (including sponsored entertainment) but it seems that doesn't work yet. The rich (mostly) somehow don't seem to sponsor events, or employ people, so the economy is screwed in that matter, too. it was done becuase of clubs and repeat game events1 generally now this game population is based around clubs and its quite annoying becasue no one see your stuff no one buys it no onee supports is and builders are compeating for a nonexistance audence then whats the point
Racer Plisskin Rezerator Join date: 2 Jan 2005 Posts: 147	03-11-2005 15:48 From: Buster Peel Monthly players are getting the raw end of the deal? I think you're arguing with yourself! SL has great entertainment value. How many hours can you spend in a movie theatre for the same amount of money as your SL fees? How much are you paying for cable TV? What's your bar tab in an average month? Divide what you put into it by what you get out of it. How many hours do you spend in SL (or in the forums, if that's your bag)? How many dollars do you pay for that per hour? Net net? What a great entertainment value. Why bother to justify it? I spend money all the time on lots of things, and I pay what it costs to get what I want. Hey, pay the bill and have a good time. You can afford it. It's worth it if you like it. Pay montly if that's easier. I pay monthly for my car because its easier. It costs more, but its easier. Buster OK, perhaps overstaing the case a bit to make a point I meant the monthly premium account players get the least return for their investment. In the hypothetical case of total cashout of an account, they are the only account type currently opperating at a loss to the player. Also, try not to take anything I say too seriously for the last few weeks and probably the next few as well. I have been opperating with a 'hair trigger' lately as I have been dealing with rediculous problems at work that are now THANKFULLY over. I'll prolly be decompressing for at least another week or so tho. Untill then, I'm lible to get cranky without notice... Lastly, unless you want to own lots of land or a private island, I agreee whole heartedly with you that SL is just about the cheapest form of quality entertainment I have ever found. To all the Lindens: Keep up the great work! Racer P.
Persephone Phoenix loving laptopvideo2go.com Join date: 5 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,012	Sad to See it isn't working out 03-19-2005 18:37 As I said a couple of weeks ago, I hoped agencies like Iron Perth would step up to bat and make partnerships with events hosts. So far, after repeated Instant Messages, I have gotten no response from Iron Perth other than a brief and very very general message that indicated that they represented a currency exchange. We have asked to be sponsored, and indicated our willingness to give them advertising in exchange for this, but so far they have quit responding to IMs, (my manager never got a single response at all, and I who have IMed 3 times, got only a vague one). Has anyone heard from Iron Perth? and are they making event subsidies happen? From: Persephone Phoenix (says Perse) This is getting real: there are less events than there were and less varied events than there were. People who don't care to go to events, don't care that there are less or that they are less varied. People who did go to events, might. New people in game rely on events far more for socialization than people who have been ingame longer. Some folks like the festivity of an event, even after being here awhile. Good events schedules are good business for the Lindens and everyone else. I never bought a gown (and would have been unlikely to) had there not been a formal Masquerade to attend. It was likewise an event that caused me to buy my first furry costume. It was the desire to host unique events that made me connect with scripters, eventually (as I got money, which was gradual) able to hire one who was able to help me craft the Truth or Dare machine. Events were what caused me to circulate my $L. I look forward to chatting with Iron Perth about their sponsorship program and am happy to see an organization respond to this need. I'm happy to make partnerships in the business community and to hear something other than what feels like shut up and build or you have nothing of worth to offer unless you can convince people to pay $20 each to attend As for discussions of this kind, when issues emerge and re-emerge, it often means that the issue is unresolved. It is always better to discuss unresolved issues than to cover them up and paste on a happy face to avoid conflict. _____________________ Events are everyone's business.

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