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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
03-09-2005 02:45
From: Surreal Farber
When you cite the NEA... those grants are done individually after submitting a RPF (request for proposal) or done under an umbrella request by an arts organization. We do have similar instances in SL. Groups have submitted proposals to LL for support of various kinds for large scale projects. The key factor is demonstrating to LL that the project promotes LL's goals.

(says Perse) not quite the same. my understanding is that these large scale projects are to be self sustaining and capitalistic in nature. They are not intended to support events or venues for arts and culture unless those projects are to be self sustaining businesses.

From: Surreal Farber
I don't disagree with Arts for Arts sake support. But I don't agree that it is needed here. RL government subsidizes skills that take a lifetime to acquire and polish: dance, painting, music. I have yet to see an event host with those kinds of skills or who makes those kind of contributions. And RL government grants go to the artists, not the venues.

Actually, Surreal, I spent 8 years as a stage actor with a Bachelor's of Fine Arts, and another 3 getting a masters in arts admin with an emphasis in theatre direction. I worked as a production manager, director, marketer, actor, and general theatre worker in off and off off Broadway in New York City for many cutting edge experimental theatres and for a couple of for-profit venues. Additionally, while getting my MFA, I took extra training in Boal theatre techniques which I have applied in-world in my scener's competitions. I trained as a writer and currently teach creative writing on a university level irl. I apply my rl skills and share my rl writing (some spoken word and some poetry) in the poet's open mic nights that I run. I attempt to bring everyone into the mix in some capacity (read Boal's Theatre of the Oppressed if you want more theory on the role of the spectactor). That isn't worth supporting with a single dollar US? the $250 Lindens for 5 hours of my time (which costs the college I work for about $125USD plus benefits) cost the Lindens only 1 USD: less than twenty-five cents per hour. I would call that Really really good value for the money. The value that the Lindens and SL got for that equivalent (in events host money only, i am not talking prize money here) of a maximum of $30 or $40 USD a day (spent on all the hosts of a full events schedule, assuming that all of them filed the requisite follow-up report) is the sense on the part of their consumers that SL is an exciting and fun place to be with a thriving community that goes beyond buying stuff. Who cares about buying stuff if there is no one to show it off to, or no place to show it off at? Or will it all be good when SL's social landscape consists of four giant clubs and a handfull of other venues offering tringo? Is that the kind of social environment that will allow the game to grow?

As for only artists and not venues getting the money: it was the hosts who got the money and not the venues in SL. Individuals applied for the events fund, not organizations. This is unlike RL in which many foundations accept organizational applications for funding. (The government does not, for example, fund symphony orchestras on a musician-by-musician basis. Many organizations get funding in the form of operational grants (though these are less popular than project grants with funders). I have written grant proposals in rl for governmental funding in two nations as well as for private funders. rfps are the actual requests for proposals that are put out by the funder. The fund seeker fills in the blanks and writes a grant proposal: a proposal for the project, season, organization, etc. The difference between these and the project funding available through LL is that LL requires the project to be self-sustaining. The context and requirements for these are to set up capitalistic businesses. But does something have to be capitalistically self-sustaining for it to be valuable? Are you saying that you have never seen an event host worth funding? This is what you seem to be saying, and this makes me wonder how many events you have gone to, for I have seen many talented events hosts. Perhaps we merely see the world that differently, you and I, though I find it hard to believe that you could see some of the people I have seen do the things they do and not believe that it was worth a single $1 USD to the Lindens.

You say "Just as scripters, animators, and designers have to develop what sells, if sales matter to them, so do event hosts in the current environment." This seems to mean that if it doesn't sell, it isn't worth getting someone to do. But having varied entertainment keeps more people playing SL. The more people who play SL, the more money Lindens make through tiers. The more people doing things in SL, the more dresses, skins, and other items that will be sold to people doing things in SL. Arts and culture in SL, just like irl, stimulates not only a vibrant community, but a vibrant economy. Plainly, we don't agree on the idea that arts and culture purveyors need to make their $1 back on sales. I truly am not asking for all that much, in my view, for the tremendous value I provide for LLs, and potentially your, customers. Also, irl, when I buy a house or pay for land, I don't expect that items will disappear for no reason, or that people will pop by at any time with guns and shoot bullets through everyone there. These differences I accept as being an issue of medium. Just as the paradigm for builders, scripters and others is a bit different in SL than irl, so it is for events hosts. I think someone doesn't have to have a BFA or MFA to be worth $1 per event. A good events host just has to have a little imagination, and spend a bit of time setting up and doing publicity. Unfortunately, the only way to make this pay for itself is to charge people around $15-20 per event, and the consumer is not willing or, in many cases, able, to pay such a charge. I do not see how a varied and culturally rich community is possible without sponsorship of some significant kind. Thank you, though, for the meaningful dialogue and for discussing the issues and not the person. :-) *sincere hopes for your enjoyment of your Second Life* ~ Perse
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Events are everyone's business.
Zonax Delorean
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 767
03-09-2005 03:22
Government can also subsidize other things, like a Drug Prevention Program, one thing that (theoretically) benefits the society. If we look at it from the view of capitalism, that's just money thrown out the window. Who else would sponsor such a program? Maybe the parents? Or insurance companies -- they won't, they'll just raise the insurance fee for 'endangered' people, or don't insure drug stuff.

Yes, theoretically parents could form Foundations, and in fact, if I'm right, they do. But I think the government money is a big lump in the whole program.

That's because the goverment perceives an advantage that overweights the costs.
It might cost them 100 million USD a year to arrange prevention programs, but then, the healthy people could pay many times that much back in taxes.

Same in SL: it might cost Linden Labs 2000 USD per month to sponsor some special (!!!) events, that raise the value of SL, but then, they might get back 3000 USD per month later from the many newcomers.

Yes, there would need to be a board set up that sets guidelines, accepts papers, reviews them, and chooses which program to sponsor or not.

Let's say I want to hold a Jazz event every saturday, I apply for L$ 2000 a month to help me offset some costs (though possibly not all). If Linden Labs sponsor board thinks this raises the value of SL, they could grant me the money, then review reports and see if it works.

Yes, Linden Labs can sponsor BIIIG events (like N'Burg from Ulrika), but a good event doesn't necessarily have to be a BIIIG event, just a nice regular one.
Marker Dinova
I eat yellow paperclips.
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
03-09-2005 04:13
OMG. Not another "new economy" thread. No... this can't be... no. NOOOOOOOOO *freaks out*
_____________________
The difference between you and me = me - you.
The difference between me and you = you - me.

add them up and we have

2The 2difference 2between 2me 2and 2you = 0

2(The difference between me and you) = 0

The difference between me and you = 0/2

The difference between me and you = 0

I never thought we were so similar :eek:
Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
03-09-2005 04:15
Maybe I'm just a pragmatist.

The Lindens have said they aren't going to subsidize events other than educational. That leaves you with three choices. (1) Convince the Lindens your events have merit. (2) Convince consumers. (3) Do something else.
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Surreal

Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004

Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43)
Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
03-09-2005 04:33
From: Persephone Phoenix
<snipped extensive qualifications> That isn't worth supporting with a single dollar US? the $250 Lindens for 5 hours of my time (which costs the college I work for about $125USD plus benefits) cost the Lindens only 1 USD: less than twenty-five cents per hour. I would call that Really really good value for the money.


You seem very qualified, but honestly... no, not to me as a consumer. It's simply a matter of personal taste.. like not caring for Italian opera.. I'm sure it has merit, but I'm not going to go see it. As for the Lindens, send them a proposal and convince them.

From: Persephone Phoenix
Or will it all be good when SL's social landscape consists of four giant clubs and a handfull of other venues offering tringo? Is that the kind of social environment that will allow the game to grow?.


My social landscape consists of hanging out in my sim, building, scripting, playing, and talking with my friends. New people come by and some of them stay because they fit in. Sometimes we go out to browse new builds. Most of the people I know in game do the same.

I have hosted and attended 100s of events, but only ones that interested me. I completely understand why the Lindens stopped supporting event hosts... the plague of XXX Hot Wet Schoolgirl Thong contests. For whatever reason the Lindens don't seem to want to take the effort to sort out "good" events. Part of it may be that "good" is so subjective.

From: Persephone Phoenix
But does something have to be capitalistically self-sustaining for it to be valuable? Are you saying that you have never seen an event host worth funding? This is what you seem to be saying, and this makes me wonder how many events you have gone to, for I have seen many talented events hosts. Perhaps we merely see the world that differently, you and I, though I find it hard to believe that you could see some of the people I have seen do the things they do and not believe that it was worth a single $1 USD to the Lindens.


I think the disconnect is you are talking about SL as you would like it to be. I'm talking about SL as it is. I'm a pragmatist. With the current situation you seem to have 3 choices (1) convince LL (2) convince consumers (3) do something else.

From: Persephone Phoenix
But having varied entertainment keeps more people playing SL. The more people who play SL, the more money Lindens make through tiers. The more people doing things in SL, the more dresses, skins, and other items that will be sold to people doing things in SL.


Sounds like an excellent argument to advance to the Lindens.
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Surreal

Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004

Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43)
Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
03-09-2005 06:47
We are offering a full replacement of the sponsoring originally provided by LL.

Please IM Iron Perth for further details.
Zonax Delorean
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 767
03-09-2005 07:46
From: Iron Perth
We are offering a full replacement of the sponsoring originally provided by LL.

Please IM Iron Perth for further details.


Could you post details here or in some special topic?

If this post is the only indication of the sponsorship offering, not many might see it! What are your requirements? Pays? Who to contact? What kinds of evens do you sponsor? What do you require in exchange for sponsoring? Etc.
Iron Perth
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 802
03-09-2005 07:54
The details are fairly straightforward, we wish to sell a number of SL products and services, and in a bid to get our name out there, we'd like to sponsor some events.

We can not guarantee that this will last forever, of course, and we may need to alter the terms of the agreement but for the short term we'll be offering to completely replace the original amount offered by LindenLab.

In return, we only ask that event handlers simply (and briefly) make their attendees aware of our products and services.

It's also our intention to ramp this up slowly, so it's unlikely that we'll be spamming the forums (well, maybe a little bit ;) for the time being..
Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
03-09-2005 08:57
(says Perse) As far as I know there is no economy on the planet that survives without any government subsidy. RL governments subsidize corporations as well as the arts and culture and sports and education.(END)

Perse, you know i dig what you do, but there is a separation between the strength of an economy and the depth of its culture. Now, re: RL corporations that are subsidized, this is *usually* a. political kickbacks, b. national security, c. supporting U.S. business against anti-competitive subsidies by other countries. The NEA exists to foster the depth and growth of our national culture, but I don't think SL is at a point that LL has a responsibility to do this. You can argue that it will be necessary to foster the growth of SL to a broader community, but that remains to be seen. It's still very early days.

As Surreal said, LL does occasionally support things that it feels will help -- Neverland was neither commercial nor perpetual, right?

I see varied anecdotes here on the forums -- of course anecdotes are a small sample set -- but some people have said "I offered this cultural event and no one showed up". If the demand isn't there (without offering people money), the demand simply isn't there. But I attended a poetry event last night and there were a few people -- not many, but a few. I was also thinking about doing a trivia event (with my own money) for the fun of it. If I'm thinking this, i'm sure others are too.

I don't often look at the events schedule these days, although starting to again. I've seen classes, games (and not just tringo), discussion events, and club parties.
Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
03-09-2005 09:22
What everyone seems to overlook in these highfalutin discussions is that if people have no way way earn money, they are not willing to pay for anything. They won't pay for events, they won't pay for anything. This will put the retailers out of business, too, which will put the land barons out of business.

I can only stand so many games of Tringo. I quit "There" in about a day and half because when I asked how one earned points, I quickly learned that you had to buy them. If the same thing happens in Second Life, it will die.

That is about the bottom line here.
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
scenario of doom!
03-09-2005 09:38
From: someone
Who cares about buying stuff if there is no one to show it off to, or no place to show it off at? Or will it all be good when SL's social landscape consists of four giant clubs and a handfull of other venues offering tringo? Is that the kind of social environment that will allow the game to grow?


Persephone, just because other players enjoy social landscapes that don't revolve around events like yours doesn't mean their social landscapes are unsustainable. There is no reason to assume their social landscapes are fated to disappear in some 'four clubs and tringo' scenario of doom. Thus there is no reason why Linden Labs should pay you money to prevent the scenario of doom.

It's great that you have particular event hosting skills. Go right ahead and enjoy using them to play the game just like the rest of us play the game using our own particular skillsets. Content creators aren't asking for $L to support our social landscapes in the sandboxes, in our neighborhoods and in our discussion groups. Speaking for myself, I play for fun. Getting an idea and building it, or pooling ideas with a client on a project is so much fun that the notion of getting LL support doesn't make sense.
Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
03-09-2005 09:59
From: Barbarra Blair
What everyone seems to overlook in these highfalutin discussions is that if people have no way way earn money, they are not willing to pay for anything.


actually, very few people here have overlooked this. This is a clear risk.

[additional comment: If the economy starts to crater, then you would expect prices to drop, although there may be a lag. If that correction does not help, LL will have to take some corrective action. If LL needs to pay people to play, then they will go out of business of course.]
Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
03-09-2005 10:05
From: Barbarra Blair
What everyone seems to overlook in these highfalutin discussions is that if people have no way way earn money, they are not willing to pay for anything. They won't pay for events, they won't pay for anything. This will put the retailers out of business, too, which will put the land barons out of business.

I can only stand so many games of Tringo. I quit "There" in about a day and half because when I asked how one earned points, I quickly learned that you had to buy them. If the same thing happens in Second Life, it will die.

That is about the bottom line here.


I disagree strongly with your conclusions. My partner and I earn enough here doing a variety of things to support a private island. If we didn't, we would probably just buy $L for those things which we wanted to buy. Business has stayed steady and in some categories has improved since the change in the economy. Everyone I know who makes stuff reports the same.

The person who comes up with an effective way to market in SL is going to make a crap load of $L btw. The single most annoying thing standing in the way of business success for most people here is how nigh impossible it is to get the word out. I would personally love to shove money at someone who comes up with a good service.

The beauty of Second Life is that you simply don't have to have money. You can rez prims, use the provided textures, run around and socialize.... many things which require no $L at all. I'm trying hard to remember when the last time I spent $L on anything other than gifts, and drawing a blank.

If you can't have fun without $L and you can't afford to buy any, or have a premium account (which btw pays for its upkeep which basic ones do not) and you are unable or unwilling to make your own stuff and own fun.. then perhaps Second Life is simply not the world for you.
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Surreal

Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004

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Marker Dinova
I eat yellow paperclips.
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
03-09-2005 10:47
Picture this.

You're on a busy new york avenue. Traffic jams, indecent drivers, people on the streets, etc. You stand there trying to commute and you think the place is going to pieces.
But when you get to your destination, at the top floor of an apartment building and look down at the very same chaotic avenue, you see everything from a different point of view. No chaos. Cars all lined up. Maybe one or two out of good ways, but no big deal. People crossing at correct lighting, etc. The point of view you are at is what is called "the big picture".

Most of us are on the bottom level, only SPECULATING on the outcomes of this new economy (which has, by the way, been working for quite some time already and I don't see people massively leaving the game) without being able to see the "big picture". How the heck can anyone here really say "oh SL is gonna be a lonely place now that these changes are in place"? None of us is grabbing the real pulse on this second life to actually be able to say concrete about it. I think the impact of everyones whining altogether would be worse than the economic changes implanted. I mean, noobs will still come and what do they now about "how it was"? But thanks to all this, I even heard a noob talking about "the problem with this new economy".. he was only 1 week old... omg.

Come on people. Let's get real for once.
_____________________
The difference between you and me = me - you.
The difference between me and you = you - me.

add them up and we have

2The 2difference 2between 2me 2and 2you = 0

2(The difference between me and you) = 0

The difference between me and you = 0/2

The difference between me and you = 0

I never thought we were so similar :eek:
Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
Getting Real
03-09-2005 11:09
(says Perse) This is getting real: there are less events than there were and less varied events than there were. People who don't care to go to events, don't care that there are less or that they are less varied. People who did go to events, might. New people in game rely on events far more for socialization than people who have been ingame longer. Some folks like the festivity of an event, even after being here awhile. Good events schedules are good business for the Lindens and everyone else. I never bought a gown (and would have been unlikely to) had there not been a formal Masquerade to attend. It was likewise an event that caused me to buy my first furry costume. It was the desire to host unique events that made me connect with scripters, eventually (as I got money, which was gradual) able to hire one who was able to help me craft the Truth or Dare machine. Events were what caused me to circulate my $L. I look forward to chatting with Iron Perth about their sponsorship program and am happy to see an organization respond to this need. I'm happy to make partnerships in the business community and to hear something other than what feels like *shut up and build* or *you have nothing of worth to offer unless you can convince people to pay $20 each to attend*

As for discussions of this kind, when issues emerge and re-emerge, it often means that the issue is unresolved. It is always better to discuss unresolved issues than to cover them up and paste on a happy face to avoid conflict.

From: Marker Dinova
Picture this.

I think the impact of everyones whining altogether would be worse than the economic changes implanted. I mean, noobs will still come and what do they now about "how it was"? But thanks to all this, I even heard a noob talking about "the problem with this new economy".. he was only 1 week old... omg.

Come on people. Let's get real for once.
_____________________
Events are everyone's business.
Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
03-09-2005 12:23
From: Marker Dinova
Picture this.You're on a busy new york avenue. Traffic jams, indecent drivers, people on the streets, etc. You stand there trying to commute and you think the place is going to pieces.But when you get to your destination, at the top floor of an apartment building and look down at the very same chaotic avenue, you see everything from a different point of view. No chaos. Cars all lined up. Maybe one or two out of good ways, but no big deal. People crossing at correct lighting, etc.


:P Forseti looks out the window at the New York he sees: hmmm... taxi drivers taking two lanes at once. Jaywalkers. Honking. Guy trying to make left turn from right hand lane. That guy's following too close to the ambulance... :P (heheh no... your forest-for-the-trees analogy is sound... I'm just poking fun)


Perseph:
1. I agree that topics keep on coming up because they are unresolved. That said, I still feel like we're talking circles because there is no short-term resolution -- only time will tell. LL has to make big picture decisions and then give them time to take effect and analyze, and only then make adjustments.

I think most agree that events are important - that's not the argument. Yeah, I bet some baby got tossed out with the bathwater. But not all -- I don't feel like they've gone away. And because events are important, and because people enjoy them, i have faith that the community/economy will self correct OR if the situation gets too bad, then LL will correct.

Anyway, I certainly don't begrudge you trying to fight for a cause. I believe in the grant system that you work with in RL, but we don't see eye-to-eye on this within SL.

lol procrastinating too much today. look at me gab. blah blah blah
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
03-09-2005 22:13
From: Surreal Farber
I disagree strongly with your conclusions. My partner and I earn enough here doing a variety of things to support a private island.
I'm just skimming this thread because my name appeared in it (hey, who doesn't search on their name).

I wanted to comment on your statement Surreal as I see it a lot in discussions of the SL economy (including the post that started this thread). Drawing conclusions from either personal or related data provides what is known as anecdotal evidence. Using anecdotal evidence in logical arguments is actually a fallacy and should be avoided.

Common examples of anecdotal evidence include stories of people being thrown free from a car and saved when not wearing a seat belt (ignoring statistically significant data which shows that seat belts save lives) and stories of a grandparent living to a very old age while being a heavy smoker (ignoring statistically significant data which shows that smoking kills about 400,000 people per year prematurely).

In conclusion I say that your data is anecdotal and thus your logical argument that the economy is fine is based on a fallacy. One would need to analyze many sales using measured data from the SL economy to make those kinds of claims.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
03-09-2005 23:07
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I'm just skimming this thread because my name appeared in it (hey, who doesn't search on their name).

I wanted to comment on your statement Surreal as I see it a lot in discussions of the SL economy (including the post that started this thread). Drawing conclusions from either personal or related data provides what is known as anecdotal evidence. Using anecdotal evidence in logical arguments is actually a fallacy and should be avoided.

Common examples of anecdotal evidence include stories of people being thrown free from a car and saved when not wearing a seat belt (ignoring statistically significant data which shows that seat belts save lives) and stories of a grandparent living to a very old age while being a heavy smoker (ignoring statistically significant data which shows that smoking kills about 400,000 people per year prematurely).

In conclusion I say that your data is anecdotal and thus your logical argument that the economy is fine is based on a fallacy. One would need to analyze many sales using measured data from the SL economy to make those kinds of claims.

~Ulrika~


Ulrika,

While you are busy correcting your perception of my flaws in logic, perhaps you should understand that I'm not extrapolating from personal data to generalize. The poster I responded to said, as I recall, people have no way to make money . I can report accurately that at least two people are doing just fine making money here.

Perhaps next time you should read, not skim.
_____________________
Surreal

Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004

Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43)
Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
03-10-2005 03:08
25L/hour cover charge pays for half a sim merely by having Tringo, and the owner would still run in the black:
/120/99/38259/1.html
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
03-10-2005 06:28
Events=Lowest Common Denominator.

Higher denominators do not pay and do not get attendance. Mostly.

And yet higher denominators are what certain kinds of people demand. Vocal people.

In the real world, these certain kinds of people often have more power because they have more money to spend and status to use. There's an orchestra in a small city, because a few people have thousands of dollars to give to it.

In Second Life, they may not have this power, because of time constraints, choice, and perhaps the fact that they use the virtual environment as recreational escape - from having to make money and accumulate status, maybe. :)

That's a problem, if the Lindens want to attract certain kinds of people. If what they want is sheer volume, however, the lowest common denominator works.

For awhile.
Strangeweather Bomazi
has no clever catchphrase
Join date: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 116
03-10-2005 09:48
From: Seth Kanahoe
Events=Lowest Common Denominator.

Higher denominators do not pay and do not get attendance. Mostly.

And yet higher denominators are what certain kinds of people demand. Vocal people.


I suspect the biggest problem with non-LCD events is that it's so hard to sift through the event listings to find the events that are of value. So people who would have loved to go to some interesting event that wasn't Tringo or a Sexy Av Contest stop reading the event listings or don't scrutinize them closely enough, and never know about the cool events. Then no one comes to the cool event, and the planner doesn't plan any more events like it.
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Pirate Cotton
DarkLifer
Join date: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
03-10-2005 15:55
Not had time to read it all but a couple of points
1) The number of events on average has gone up since the changes. I counted.
2) If you need to offer so many rewards for an event that you lose money, maybe your event sucks? I'm going to see if I can run some events just for fun (a games tour, a tour of games in SL) and maybe another warbot building event (spontaneously ran one with newbies one day) just to see.

So, what am I missing in regards to point 2?
Cherry Took
Mud Wrestling Champeeeen
Join date: 7 Jan 2005
Posts: 160
Questions methodology
03-10-2005 17:12
When two people doing the same research come up with different results, it is good to question the methodology. I counted up the events of January 11-17 and compared them to the events of February 11-17 and noted that events numbers had gone down. Which days did you count? Did you average or median?

Also, one doesn't lose money by running an event unless one offers prizes. If you make any content and give it away for free, you don't lose money unless you consider time to also be money. The issue is that most builders, scripters, and other content makers usually expect to have a balance between giveaways (that they may offer to entice consumers, for example, or to give something back to the community) and earnings. They believe it is fair that they earn something for their efforts. Events hosts earned something for the value they provided to LL: more entertainment for their consumers. For me the issue is not losing money (unless I buy Lindens, which I just can't do). The issue is that, though people say again and again how much fun my events are etc, they do not have the $ to pay for them, or, if they do, are having problems shifting to a new paradigm in which they don't get paid to go to events, but are, rather, asked to pay for them. And these events (the more gourmet events, let's say) have to compete with the mcdonald's events (one's where the club gets so much volume that they can afford to have moneyballs etc, because they are getting real USD for being in the top 2% of traffic).

Simplifying the issue impedes progress rather than creates progress. Giving assertions without supporting those assertions does the same thing. Rather than tossing toothpicks into one another's eyes, why don't we try to build bridges toward workable solutions?

From: Pirate Cotton
Not had time to read it all but a couple of points
1) The number of events on average has gone up since the changes. I counted.
2) If you need to offer so many rewards for an event that you lose money, maybe your event sucks? I'm going to see if I can run some events just for fun (a games tour, a tour of games in SL) and maybe another warbot building event (spontaneously ran one with newbies one day) just to see.

So, what am I missing in regards to point 2?
Racer Plisskin
Rezerator
Join date: 2 Jan 2005
Posts: 147
03-10-2005 19:59
WARNING: anyone not wanting to read me going off on a rant, please skip the rest of this post and enjoy the rest of your flight...

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Getting back to the original topic of this thread...

"No Pay = No Value = No Play"

[RANT]

WHAT KIND OF IDIOCY IS THIS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Lets do some VERY BASIC MATH here and see just what's realy going on...

Based on GOM, etc, 'The Linden' as a unit of trade HAS A REAL VALUE wether it's tangible or not. If noone was willing to pay $4 US for 1000L then it's value would be lower. I'm not going to bother writing a book on why the Linden has any value in the first place, I'm simply going to use it as a given, observable FACT.

Here are a few calculations based on the above paragraph... (using approximate values to keep the math simple)
$10.00 US = L2,500 SL
$22.50 US = L5,625 SL
$72.00 US = L18,000 SL

WARNING #2: If you don't agree with the above numbers, STOP READING and go back to lala-land.

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A 'basic' account which costs the player a one time fee of $10 US and will last a lifetime (or as long as LL stays in buisness and continues to develope and maintain SL)

This basic account receives: ???L (I seem to recall L250 but I can't remember for sure anymore but I WILL use it in my arguement anyway cause I'm anoyed to have to explain this anyway... ;) ) for being created as a FREE test account. + an additional 'bonus' of 250L for simply confirming the transaction and payingh for the account + a stipend of 50L per week (provided the player logged in at least once that week and with no other strings attached).

A basic account can be cashed out in 40 weeks and the account holder will have payed $0 US. ANY further Lindens aquired as stipend is PURE PROFIT TO THE PLAYER. All this for simply signing up and burning up about 2-3 minutes a week to keep the acount active by simply logging in for a few seconds...

250L+250L+ (40[weeks] * 50L) = 2500L = $10

'premium' account costs vary depoending on the plan you are on but all get L500 per week stipend AND can own up to 512m2 of land with no additional fees.

The $10 monthly fee is a net loss as you are paying 2500L equivalent to receive 2000L in exchange and L2500 every 3rd month (you get an extra week in each quarter somewhere...).

The $22.50 quarterly account is better in that you are getting 6500L in return for your payment of the equivalent of L5,625... You are making a quarterly PROFIT of L875 or $3.50 and you don't even have to login every week to get it like the basic account holders do. Just login once every 3 months and cash out whatever your AV has in it's account.

The anual fee plan is way in the lead by offering players L26000 per year in exchange for an L18,000 investment... That's a pure profit of L8000 SL or $32.00 US that _THEY_ ***ARE*** PAYING US TO PLAY THE GAME.

So everyone WHINING about how LL is screwing everyone over, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!. All the extra Lindens thrown into the game were JUST THAT; _EXTRA_. Now they are gone and people are unhappy. I understand that. It's simple human nature.

FINALY: None of the above takes into account the expenses to LL for the equipment, bandwidth, people and physical plant required for all this to happen in the first place.

My personal opinion is BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT AS IT'S **WAY** MORE THAN WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR (well except for the monthly payment players - they, AND THEY ALONE, are getting the raw end of the deal.

[/RANT]
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Lala-land resumes _HERE_

Racer P
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
03-10-2005 20:29
From: Racer Plisskin
[RANT]
...
My personal opinion is BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT AS IT'S **WAY** MORE THAN WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR (well except for the monthly payment players - they, AND THEY ALONE, are getting the raw end of the deal.[/RANT]


Monthly players are getting the raw end of the deal? I think you're arguing with yourself! SL has great entertainment value. How many hours can you spend in a movie theatre for the same amount of money as your SL fees? How much are you paying for cable TV? What's your bar tab in an average month?

Divide what you put into it by what you get out of it. How many hours do you spend in SL (or in the forums, if that's your bag)? How many dollars do you pay for that per hour? Net net?

What a great entertainment value. Why bother to justify it? I spend money all the time on lots of things, and I pay what it costs to get what I want. Hey, pay the bill and have a good time. You can afford it. It's worth it if you like it. Pay montly if that's easier. I pay monthly for my car because its easier. It costs more, but its easier.

Buster
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