Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

"Make real money"?

Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
03-02-2005 09:15
From: Merwan Marker
Use to be? I still lead cheers for the home team Chip. LoL

Never excepted them to babysit my difficulties - which they didn't do - but the LL lack of internal communication was not helpful regarding several issues I've attempted to deal with them about, even prior to SLEx.

ILL will towards LL? Not really - I just feel they are in need of a stronger management team.


Fair enough, Merwan. Apologies for making assumptions. It just seems your tune has changed quite a bit since then and I hope your enthusiasm gets a new foothold. You've always been one of those people whose optimism is contagious so it just sounds odd to hear you make those kinds of posts. You're certainly entitled though :)
_____________________

My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
03-02-2005 09:19
From: Chip Midnight
The biggest (and in no way unsolvable) problems I see...

Culture - People bring their expectations with them from other MMOGs. We have a lot of ex-TSO people expecting SL to be the same kind of artificial skinner box that provides them with artificial game mechanics that allow them to get the cheese and earn real world money. The L$, since it is tied directly to USD, is for all intents and purposes real money. It wouldn't make sense for LL to create artifical skilling and reward it with real money. SL depends on real world skills and that's a disappointment to people who come in expecting a gravy train that anyone can ride. As a result we now have people resenting content creators which to me is akin to biting the hand that entertains you.

Land resale - It's a damn shame that virtual real estate has gotten most of the press. It has never been and will never be anything more than a pyramid scheme where any profit extracted is at the expense of someone left holding the bag. It attracted people who aren't getting rich from their "investments" and as a result pollute the world with misguided vitriol about SL not being "fair." It was never meant to be fair. It's not TSO.

Tools - we're lacking infrastructure to grow truly large ventures. In some ways this is good though. It keeps competition very healthy. We're not in any danger of having the SL equivelant of Walmart destroying all the myriad botique operations that are flourishing.

Generally speaking I think the biggest thing holding SL and its economy back is lack of imagination and understanding among the playerbase. People come in with the expectation of finding fame and fortune through game mechanics alone. When they find out that this expectation is misguided and that only those people with relevant real world skills are going to have profitable ventures they get bitter. They don't want to spend money beyond their initial $9.95 and feel like they shouldn't have to. They feel they should be provided artificial mechanisms to compete with those who do have relevant skills. It's easy to understand that frustration. They came here expecting SL to be a game when it clearly is not. In that respect SL is too far ahead of its time and the average user has a dificult time divorcing themselves from traditional MMORPG expectations and truly grasping and embracing SL for what it is... an ala carte buffet of game content. Everyone wants to either be a chef or eat for free.



I echo this sentiment to the fullest. I could not have enuciated my thoughts in more productive account of SL as it is now.

Shadow
_____________________
Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola."<Pathfinder Linden>

New Worlds new Adventures
Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow.

Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel

Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel
http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions
OR Visit The Website @
www.slvisions.com
Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
03-02-2005 09:21
it's okay that you don't understand what i mean chip. i don't expect everybody to understand and support everything i say.

i have nothing to project. my little business is doing well enough to cover my tier fees and i don't really expect any more than that. i simply mean that the sl economy has panned out to be an exact replica of the real world economy. for all the talk and concerns of the emerging "virtual economy," there's nothing new here.

i do agree that ll are here to provide infrastructure rather than a canned game. i wish they would start providing infrastructure tools rather than gaming features.

on the other hand, i also agree that sl was never meant to be useful to the professional world as anything other than a virtual reality gaming environment. it's strange to me how people consistently manage to voice both those facts as though it makes sense for them to be equally true.
_____________________
Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
03-02-2005 09:23
From: Chip Midnight
The biggest (and in no way unsolvable) problems I see...

Culture - People bring their expectations with them from other MMOGs. We have a lot of ex-TSO people expecting SL to be the same kind of artificial skinner box that provides them with artificial game mechanics that allow them to get the cheese and earn real world money. The L$, since it is tied directly to USD, is for all intents and purposes real money. It wouldn't make sense for LL to create artifical skilling and reward it with real money. SL depends on real world skills and that's a disappointment to people who come in expecting a gravy train that anyone can ride. As a result we now have people resenting content creators which to me is akin to biting the hand that entertains you.

Land resale - It's a damn shame that virtual real estate has gotten most of the press. It has never been and will never be anything more than a pyramid scheme where any profit extracted is at the expense of someone left holding the bag. It attracted people who aren't getting rich from their "investments" and as a result pollute the world with misguided vitriol about SL not being "fair." It was never meant to be fair. It's not TSO.

Tools - we're lacking infrastructure to grow truly large ventures. In some ways this is good though. It keeps competition very healthy. We're not in any danger of having the SL equivelant of Walmart destroying all the myriad botique operations that are flourishing.

Generally speaking I think the biggest thing holding SL and its economy back is lack of imagination and understanding among the playerbase. People come in with the expectation of finding fame and fortune through game mechanics alone. When they find out that this expectation is misguided and that only those people with relevant real world skills are going to have profitable ventures they get bitter. They don't want to spend money beyond their initial $9.95 and feel like they shouldn't have to. They feel they should be provided artificial mechanisms to compete with those who do have relevant skills. It's easy to understand that frustration. They came here expecting SL to be a game when it clearly is not. In that respect SL is too far ahead of its time and the average user has a dificult time divorcing themselves from traditional MMORPG expectations and truly grasping and embracing SL for what it is... an ala carte buffet of game content. Everyone wants to either be a chef or eat for free.


BRAVO! This time I think Chip's post needs to be nominated for bronzing.
_____________________
eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
just to clarify
03-02-2005 09:27
before anyone jumps on my rather jaded previous post.. what i mean is basically the following:

Its relatively easy to make money in a destructive way in SL. To extort people for useless spits of land, to sell erstwhile free items, extort/pressure 'employees' of popular venues to game the existing systems etc (for an rl equivalent think of scammers, spammers, pyramid scheme starters, infomercials on how to make infomercials to make money, they are not 'producing' a viable good/service, they are trying up and abusing existing things, at the detriment of the majority of the rest of the users of the system)

Its abit harder to make money in a generically neutral and/or 'supportive' way, having a low cost vendor mall, or pay to play kind of sandbox model, or auction land 'middlemen' etc. They may not be actually producing any goods, they may or may not be offering a service or two that some people would like to use, but they aren't extorting or gaming systems either (think of them like stock traders or real estate speculators.. the world would work fine without them, but they aren't directly harming people either)

Its abit harder than even that to make money in a constructive/productive way. To build, create, entertain, host educational events, etc. Thats not to say that you can't do it. Its just not going to happen right away, or be as easily 'accessable' as buying a 16sqm plot an putting a giant spinny particle spitting sign on it. It will take time to learn skills, and effort to put them to good use. These are the crators, artisans, industrialists, teachers, people who have amassed skills, talent, and dedication and who actively use them to make the system better.



What i've seen is that people who come to SL to 'make money' generally end up finding themselves in the first two categories, either destructive, or neutral... usually destructive at the outset, since its the 'easiest' way to start getting additional $L in the account , and if they aren total jerks, they do generally find their way to the neutral area after a little while. a couple do make their way to the productive side but its generally too much initial effort for them to bother with. Many of these users come and go, brief flare-ups and burn-outs are typical

People who come to SL to create/explore tend to either end up just socializing and toying with the system and its possibilities on a personal level. Many more of these people tend to stick around (since its something rather unique to SL, no other systems offer this kind of endless creative and exploratory potential) and become 'old timers' so as the game progresses, 'older' users tend to be more of this type than the others, since there is no alternative, no other place for them to 'go' out there on the net to get the same things SL offers. If they find something they can do that other people want, often they will end up finding themselves as creators, some unwitting, or small time, others planned and/or growing. Others find their way to more neutral occupations, and a few will eventually go for destructive practices. The majority though mostly jus end up light builders, and consumers, spending more of their time socializing with a circle of friends.

People who come to SL to socialize often tend to end up just as consumers. They don't really want or need that much more money than the system gives them already. You get a small and roughly equal number of them to spread out across the 'occupations' SL offers, while the lions share just simply enjoy the day to day social atmosphere and events SL has to offer. Often they will be patrons, finding things they like and following up with second, or third or more purchases from creators they like.


Does this encompass everything? hardly... but i think from a general perspective, this does a pretty good job capturing the basic trends, both on an 'occupational' level, and on a user 'interest' level.


I think overall LL wants to balance the creative, neutral, and consumer interests. At the same time they don't want to excercise the 'mandate' to stop destructive practices as it is difficult to do so without also hurting the creative and or supportive interests. When a specific destructive practice becomes such a disputed or malevolant issue (such as land scanners, becomes too damaging, to the supportive/constructive sides of SL) LL does step in and try and make the smallest change possible, to dampen the single destructive impulse, while hopefully not affecting the rest of the SL climate significantly.
_____________________
wash, rinse, repeat
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
03-02-2005 09:37
From: Khamon Fate
i have nothing to project. my little business is doing well enough to cover my tier fees and i don't really expect any more than that. i simply mean that the sl economy has panned out to be an exact replica of the real world economy. for all the talk and concerns of the emerging "virtual economy," there's nothing new here.


I think it was your comment to the effect that SL will never amount to anything realistic that threw me, and I'm still not quite sure what you meant. I've always found the hype surrounding the virtual economy as some kind of new revolutionary thing to be a bit silly. The only thing really revolutionary is the platform, not what actually happens with it. I've always felt this way. When people's minds boggle when I try and tell them about my SL business I'm always a bit baffled that they have so much difficulty wrapping their brains around it. I create and sell digital assets for multimedia... exactly the same thing I've been doing for my living for the last 15 years. It's just a new kind of marketplace for it.
_____________________

My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
03-02-2005 09:47
From: eltee Statosky
Does this encompass everything? hardly... but i think from a general perspective, this does a pretty good job capturing the basic trends, both on an 'occupational' level, and on a user 'interest' level.


Great post eltee! I think that's an excellent encapsulation of the major trends and user lifecycle. I don't really think anything is necessarily "broken." It's just going to take a long time for the culture to fit the platform instead of wanting the platform to fit their expectations. I don't think that can really happen until this niche has been around a long time and more of the people who sign up come in with a pre-existing understanding of what they'll find. In LL's shoes I'm not really sure exactly how I'd handle marketing to help that process along.
_____________________

My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
03-02-2005 10:38
From: Chip Midnight
Great post eltee! I think that's an excellent encapsulation of the major trends and user lifecycle. I don't really think anything is necessarily "broken." It's just going to take a long time for the culture to fit the platform instead of wanting the platform to fit their expectations. I don't think that can really happen until this niche has been around a long time and more of the people who sign up come in with a pre-existing understanding of what they'll find. In LL's shoes I'm not really sure exactly how I'd handle marketing to help that process along.


well i would argue that the 'make real money' sales pitch is probably detrimental to SL long term. Its not really pulling in 'valuable' customers, its pulling in a generally destructive, and at best neutral class of users who don't care about the social space, don't care about the creative elements, they just want to get a quick buck. These aren going to be big time land owners, or content producers, or even socialites, or consumers, or jus people bein silly... by an large someone attracted to an environment by a make money pitch is going to be there, for the money

and they are going to get it in the easiest/simplest way they can, regardless of any 'consequences' since by in large they have very little 'investment' in the game thus its no big loss if what they do gets them kicked etc.

theres obviously an exception or two to prove every rule... but by in large, the people who enter SL with the express purpose of making money are going to make *less* money than the creators, and do alot more damage getting it.
_____________________
wash, rinse, repeat
Alexis Heiden
xcriteria
Join date: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 80
03-02-2005 10:46
There are a lot of good points in this thread.

eltee, your extension of your initial remark is great. I think a lot of times when people post brief, jaded, or inflammatory comments there is something of value behind them, but if it isn't explained in clear and extended language it will be jumped on or ignored as noise.

My understanding of the range of user trends is still limited, but I would add that a lot of people seem interested in using SL for more than they currently are, whether as consumers, participants, or producers. However, they may not know where to begin.

Personally, I find myself with lots of ideas, but translating them into workable plans and implementing them is more difficult, for a several reasons. One of those is my psychological makeup, which is a factor anyone has to take into account when figuring out what they will thrive in or at least be able to do effectively. Another is that I am still learning what can be done with SL and learning about the culture and aspects of the system.

Perhaps the biggest practical problem I face, with much of what I would like to do and see in SL, involves problems with obtaining reasonbly-priced licenses for the limited distribution of copyrighted content. This is hard enough with music, which now at least has a licensing process that can be used. But, other media content types are even trickier. For example, licensing content from academic papers or textbooks for electronic distribution (especially at reasonable prices for experimentation) seems really difficult based on what I've checked into. This is a topic for a different thread, but it does relate to making real money: distributing media content is a potentially ultra-viable industry on SL, but the legal ramifications complicate it a lot, especially if the goal is to earn a profit.

From: Chip Midnight
Generally speaking I think the biggest thing holding SL and its economy back is lack of imagination and understanding among the playerbase. People come in with the expectation of finding fame and fortune through game mechanics alone. When they find out that this expectation is misguided and that only those people with relevant real world skills are going to have profitable ventures they get bitter. They don't want to spend money beyond their initial $9.95 and feel like they shouldn't have to.

People tend not to think of SL as a destination for money that many of them, according to industry statistics and the number of these businesses in operation, are apparently happy to spend on things out of SLs: movies, traditional video games, expensive dinners, casino gambling, RL classes, nights at the bar, etc.).

Part of what's needed in SL is content and events that are able to effectively compete with the interest those activities have. This, along with LL making it easier and more user-friendly for residents to buy L$ (as they've alluded to in recent forum posts), could lead to a potentially very large influx of "real money". The key is providing opportunities for people to spend money that are of substantial value to them: where, at a minimum, they tend to walk away with a good experience and feel that they spent their money well.
eltee Statosky
Luskie
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,258
03-02-2005 11:00
i would be cautious with plans about moving 'outside' content into SL

unless you can find a compelling way that being in SL will augment the content viewing experience, you may find people prefer to jus view it where they would normally find it, and save themselves the trouble.

The most money in SL has been made in SL centric things honestly... clothes, avatars, vehicles, scripted toys... these have a value in SL because SL is the medium for viewing them. Things like books, i would question what value that would have in Sl, when it would be easier, cheaper, and a better experience, reading one while sitting in a comfy chair, listening to music...

Its not that a book is bad content, its simply that SL would probably be a poor 'interface' for enjoying it. I would center on things that enrich, enhance, or enliven peoples time in SL, or that are only *possible* to do in SL. creating, distributing, and enjoying those things are where the oldest productive members tend to end up. or contra-positively, those are the things that when enjoyed, make for the most comitted, and long lasting, members
_____________________
wash, rinse, repeat
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
03-02-2005 11:01
From: eltee Statosky
well i would argue that the 'make real money' sales pitch is probably detrimental to SL long term. Its not really pulling in 'valuable' customers, its pulling in a generally destructive, and at best neutral class of users who don't care about the social space, don't care about the creative elements, they just want to get a quick buck. These aren going to be big time land owners, or content producers, or even socialites, or consumers, or jus people bein silly... by an large someone attracted to an environment by a make money pitch is going to be there, for the money


I completely agree. I think what we've seen is partly due to the marketing but probably has more to do with what aspects get played up in media coverage of SL. To me, the smorgasbord of user created content is what's novel, but the press can't seem to get over the "make money" aspect. Making money is an interesting and good side effect of user created content rather than the point of it. Unfortunately very few press articles (if any) have taken that slant.

From: Alexis Heiden
Part of what's needed in SL is content and events that are able to effectively compete with the interest those activities have. This, along with LL making it easier and more user-friendly for residents to buy L$ (as they've alluded to in recent forum posts), could lead to a potentially very large influx of "real money". The key is providing opportunities for people to spend money that are of substantial value to them: where, at a minimum, they tend to walk away with a good experience and feel that they spent their money well.


Very well said. I think you're absolutely right and I think LL understands this pretty well. Throughout SL's history LL has tried to incentivize larger scale interactive destination type attractions, but so far very few have come to fruition. We need a lot more things like DarkLife, Neverland, and U:SL that are of high enough quality that people want to come in to SL just to partake of something like that on its own... and then have a whole world full of other things to discover, play, and play with. We're really not there yet. For the most part, what most content providers provide are simply props to facilitate other people's play rather than providing actual play experiences. I think it's going to take a while for us to get there but I think we will as the platform grows and becomes more capable of supporting those kinds of large scale projects and attracting the kind of people with the skill and dedication to bring them to life.
_____________________

My other hobby:
www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Alexis Heiden
xcriteria
Join date: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 80
03-02-2005 11:29
From: eltee Statosky
i would be cautious with plans about moving 'outside' content into SL

unless you can find a compelling way that being in SL will augment the content viewing experience, you may find people prefer to jus view it where they would normally find it, and save themselves the trouble.

The most money in SL has been made in SL centric things honestly... clothes, avatars, vehicles, scripted toys... these have a value in SL because SL is the medium for viewing them. Things like books, i would question what value that would have in Sl, when it would be easier, cheaper, and a better experience, reading one while sitting in a comfy chair, listening to music...

Its not that a book is bad content, its simply that SL would probably be a poor 'interface' for enjoying it. I would center on things that enrich, enhance, or enliven peoples time in SL, or that are only *possible* to do in SL. creating, distributing, and enjoying those things are where the oldest productive members tend to end up. or contra-positively, those are the things that when enjoyed, make for the most comitted, and long lasting, members


I agree. Even the web is potentially a better medium for electronic media content, if the 3D world of SL doesn't provide some kind of enhanced presentation of it. What I'm thinking of isn't displaying whole books in SL, but using short excerpts or especially images from textbooks in a presentation format or other interactive format that makes use of the particular features of the SL world. One of those features is the collaboration that can be made possible, for example, to discuss a particular topic or content item - like a RL class or an enhanced version of the increasingly popular web-baseed classes.

One option, with books, is having people buy them (or get them from the library), read them, and spend some time at an SL event or other SL-based situation that provides an extended experience related to the book.

I'm also thinking of the potential for things like in-world video or animation. But, with that also, why should people watch in SL, rather than on the web? I think the main reason is the opportunity for interaction, and for some of the reasons people go to a RL theater or class: to experience something along with others, and maybe talk about it afterward.

From: Chip Midnight
I completely agree. I think what we've seen is partly due to the marketing but probably has more to do with what aspects get played up in media coverage of SL. To me, the smorgasbord of user created content is what's novel, but the press can't seem to get over the "make money" aspect. Making money is an interesting and good side effect of user created content rather than the point of it. Unfortunately very few press articles (if any) have taken that slant.

This is a vitally important point. SL isn't portrayed much at all as a current or potential alternative to other entertainment, educational, or online community activities. Hopefully this is something that will be remedied as a wider range of quality in-world experiences are developed. And maybe in part, it's something LL's marketing department could better emphasize.
1 2