The Big Prim Problem

OK everyone's got an oppinion, lets's look at some of the facts.

In the development of the greenies home sim we spent sevral weeks JUST looking at how megas work. That sim would not exist at all if it wasn't for megaprims, and we've used pretty much every type there is (apart from over 256's and erm the xbox cock).

You spend most of your time in that sim INSIDE dimpled cut hollowed physical 256x256x256 prims - this is something that according to most folks is impossible. For us however it allowed us to produce the same effect in about 40 megaprims (for the house) as would have taken over 4000 traditional prims. Remember these are physical boundary huge prims and work. (for the most part).

Similarly the greenies mothership, a combination of many megaprim types both phantom and physical, would have had to be designed very differently to work. As a tesselated regular prim build I estimate a minimum of 7000 prims would be required for a far inferior blocky design.

So to do greenies, one of the sims people will use as a classic test case for megaprims, it would have taken about 100 times as many traditional prims to produce an inferior result. We could have built the structure, but there would be no prims left for sim content.

So what did we learn about megas along the way.

HOLLOW/CUT DOESN'T WORK UNDER HAVOK1- WELL NOT QUITE

The physics engine doesn't like hollow megaprims for the most part. The easiest way to do something annoying with megas is to drop a 256x256x256 in the local area and everyone will float through the roof. If it's hollow the physics engine treats it as filled and ejects all the avs anyway. This is however not the case if the prim is cut into slices. The walls at greenies are all hollow 256 prims placed smack bang in the middle of the sim. You are INSIDE them.

They're cut though so each only takes up at most one quadrant (diagonally cut at the corners) so that the physics engine can figure out the boundary surface. As long as that very specific setup is used they will function as physical sim walls. We could have used thin 256x256's as walls but then we couldn't have dimpled them for height AND draw distance would have made them disapear when you got over towards the other side of the sim. Using a 256 in the center of the sim that you're inside means you're always within 130m or so from the position the prim is rendered from. No wall popping.

Dimpled prims are understood quite well by the physics engine, we used that a lot.

Many cuts work, just as many don't.

HAVOK4 DOESN"T GET MEGAPRIMS - ERM.....NOT QUITE

In testing on the beta grid havok4 has FAR FEWER RESTRICTIONS on how megaprims work. The scarey thing is that they do work. You can grab a 100m sphere, hollow and dimple it and _turn_it_physics_ - you can toss it about, run around on top of it, jump in it's hole, fill it with other physical objects - woot! It works a charm. I expect you could load your gun up with them and shoot them at people. This is perhaps why the lindens are so worried. In my testing of havok4 I didn't find anything that megas couldn't do with exactly the same reliability as regular prims. You can make a sky out of them, turn them phys, and let them fall and crush poor chicken little. Havok4 also appears to work fairly reliably for the collision boundary of sculpted prims. (Advanced terrain builders reading this should be getting a bit excited right now.) Obviously the power is there to get them working as expected, but as with anything in sl the griefing potential grows with the power of the system.

SO WHAT'S THIS PROBLEM WITH HAVOK THEN?

The big problem with the new havok coming in is that it is about to give the lindens and everyone else a whole lot more interesting stuff to police. According to the lindens, megaprims work in havok4 pretty much like havok1, mostly under some circumstances. If anything they are far less broken under the new system. I threw guaranteed sim crash conditions using megas at the havok4 beta and didn't even get as much as sim lag. However the grief potential is immense. Under the new havok griefers will be able to spam with physical prims in the way that previously was only possible with particles. I think misuse of megas will be the least of their problems.

We have to remember that as a group the Lindens have better things to do than hang around in world checking out everything that the residents are doing with these things, and of course they'll see anything new they introduce as a potential threat to their ability to sleep at night (as opposed to doing those 4ams to fix massive breaks.) But megaprims are everywhere, and the ONLY way to do many things in world without the provision of better tools. And contrary to some commentary the 256 prims are some of the most useful (to private island builders). Of about ten projects I know of at rezzable at least 6 wouldn't work without various megas used to do the impossible, and others that are enhanced by them.

THEY'RE A HACK - WELL YES BUT...

The lindens should remember their very recent issue with taking out llSetLinkPrimitiveParams for setting avatar position. That was allegedly a hack, but also the only way to elegantly solve a common sl scripting problem. After only a few months in the wild it had already been adopted far and wide as the best solution. After discovering it within a week I'd comissioned it's use in one item and started working on another to use it. The removal of that function caused a huge ruckus in the community.

Removal of megaprims would make the llSetLinkPrimitiveParams debacle look like a storm in a teacup. I can't think of many classic builds in sl which don't use one or two. This is particularly the case for many of the commercial builds in SL which have very different design criteria to mainland builds. Megas are the only solution that works in an incredibly restricted build environment. Better build tools would be a start - and resizable large prims is an extremely popular solution - but i can't imagine giving residents the power to roll their own megaprims up to 256 is a viable solution. (More a nightmare waiting to happen really.)

Larger build tools may need (i hate to say it) some per user restrictions. If payment info on file or id verification was required to rez prims over 10m it would severely restrict alt griefing, and provide a locked in av identity for disciplinary action re griefing offenses. Suggesting this runs counter to my hobo politic, but is a far better solution than arbitrarily restricting everyone from the use of powerful building tools. Frankly anyone who's going to rez a huge prim on their free 512 tier parcel should know better and can be dealt with using the law of the commons. Encroachment is only a difficult issue when it comes to the anonymous mega rezzed on open land.

IN CONCLUSION - OF SORTS.....

The megaprim problem is a tricky one. We NEED these things for want of a better solution - there is currently no other way to get the same functionality. Without megaprims SL building looks more like activeworlds circa 1998 than a contemporary VR environment. The technical issues they cause with havok4, while probably still significant, are far fewer than we might imagine. Having said that, not being able to build arbitrarily large structures with fine precision is still a defecit. Providing those tools presents problems too, but please don't remove the rudimentary tools we already have in place for building large structures. Megaprims are the only tool we have for solving many build issues, and one that has been used successfuly all across SL.

Pavig Lok
http://twitter.com/pavig

– Good Things: First of all, only the really large mega prims are 'helpful' for harrassment. A 20x20x0.5 is just 4x the size of a 10x10x0.5 prim or 2x the length.
As a builder I use some of the Mega prims - mainly the 20x20x0.5 version

My main use of mega prims is for alpha textures. builders know the pain with opengl when transparent textures start to flicker and it looks really weird. when you can use mega prims this problem doesnt occur that much.
examples:
- several water surfaces on pools or ponds larger than 10m, for fading effects and haze, only work with these prims
- large trees (have a look at heart garden center) -only- work that way, too

In addition it is sometimes useful to have larger spheres and similar. That's something you cant do with normal prims.



– Bad Things: The really large ones seem to create a lot of lag from my experience
I have experienced no bad things about the smaller mega prims

– Ideas: Don't remove the smaller ones. The 20x20x0.5 is one of the most usefull one and does not create problems from what I get. the 50x50x50 sphere seems stable for me, too, I don't use it though, but I know from others.

I'd love to see you being creative though - if its possible to raise the inworld prim size limits, please do. Double them maybe

OK... I am known in my circle of friends as the "king" of huge prim usage...

BUT ... there are responsible ways of using them... and irresponsible.

YES.. they can be used for terrorist attacks (rotfl @ gene... killin me here, smalls... )
BUT ... anyone that knows how to do such things (prim-bombs, etc) also knows one can do the same thing and achieve the same effect with normal prims... so i dont see a necessity in outlawing them for those reasons..

YES ... griefers use them for annoying little tricks... but they can use other methods with particle/image spammers and poofers that cause the same effect... again... no change made if huge prim are outlawed.

idiotic uses; invisible walls around a sim, WAY too many of 100+ sizes causes MASSIVE lag .. the "floating" effect will quickly get them to remove those on their own, though ... giant walls around a lot.. ok people.. i use a few 25 x 25 x 1's for a treeline border... but the 128 x 128 x 1 ... REALLY NOW!?!?! ya.. theyre GREAT for blocking out ad-farms (i have at one time surrounded a spinning and flashing ad farm with huge prim.. rendering it completely useless... ~takes a bow~ )

prolific and practical uses; walls and floors for a mansion (trust me on this .. dont be a cheapskate.. its MUCH better on sim-performance to build a few smaller ones than one huge one.. the lag point made on the REALLY big ones (100+) is VERY VALID.. and thats from experimenting and a LOT of experience trying ) as someone else also pointed out.. flattening a sim... i have a quarter that is a mountain on one side, and a flatland on three other... it has taken me A WHILE to get it HALF as flat as i have now.. (and i still have catacombs that would make a nosferatu proud ) building PLESANT walls to achieve a "look" ... keep it to 25 - 50m and it wont bother others... large builds... huge prim is a MUST here... unless you want to spend half your allowance on walls and floors... WATER!!!! as someone pointed out before.. it makes a beautiful seamless water texture.. and the rotating script doesnt cause lag... one of their BEST uses!! there are plenty more to list here... but as a builder.. quite honestly.. i would be LOST without my huge prim...

feel free to take a look at my newest build (tip; right click and edit.. will show you what size things are! ) the sim is Heirogryph.. cant miss it.. its a quarter sim replica of rome )
there are some really good examples of GOOD usage of huge prim there for those of you who don't know...

things to abolish;
prim over 128m .. honestly.. after a LOT of hit and miss efforts.. all they do is cause lag...
burying a huge prim below 1m .... this causes MAJOR lag!!! took me a WHILE to find this and figure out.. and now i LIVE by it... in all honesty, its not good to bury ANY prim below 1m.. (this is easiest to see on estate land where all you have to do is be on a sim border... but honestly.. its simple math... ) but HUGE prim are a SEVERE cause of lag.. do yourselves a favor on this one...

things that could be done to benefit the community;

EDUCATE!!! hold classes/seminars on how to USE them properly... they DO have their advantages... but are most definatly not the easiest things to use.. and can easily slip out of someones control accidentaly... (try using the slider or rotation on a 25 x 25.. and youll figure out this one REAL quick!!)

honestly.. one thing i could see SL and the community benefit GREATLY from is more guidance... a LOT of people that are on the grid rely on other peoples builds, teaching them how to build simple structures is an easy thing to do.. i do it for friends all the time... and would benefit us all by making the land look better... avoiding mistakes in new builders, and could also skirt the things like huge prim causing lag, simply because a new resident dosent know any better... YES, there are classes out there... but not enough is advertised about them....

as per a final thought on huge prim.. it goes just like anything else.. you have your supporters, your people against, and those in-between.. that will never change... what should be done..(and hoping this is what this is all about here!!) take all the views/points/reasons... and do whats best for the community as a whole... but theres no need to take action against "huge prims" as a whole.. just the problem-causing ones. because a 50 x 50 x 1 can cause grief in the wrong hands dosent mean it dosent look really kewl re-shaped to a cylinder, given a water texture and a slow rotation (which spreads outward, btw) and look REALLY kewl in the middle of my roman bath house!!! lol

... just a thought

(o ya.. breathing... )

A simpler solution to the griefing problem may be to make the megaprim a separate object category and disallow physics and rezzing by script. Also disable resizing/reshaping/moving by script for this class.

To counter the static prim grief (and solve other encroachment issues) a landowner should be able to delete a prim (not just megaprims) if any uncut part of it encroaches (not just the center). Thus a 256x256x256 prim can be deleted by ANY landowner in that sim since it encroaches on everyone.

With these two you won't need Pavig's suggested restriction-to verifieds approach which would hamper those who rent in private sims.

Personally, I think removeing then because "They can be used for griefing/exploits." Is akin to removeing all prims with a semi-flat surface because you could put offensive images on them.

They have their uses and it shows in people's work.

Plus even if they were used for grief or exploiting fairly often... (I've yet to see that kind of thing personally) Isn't it really easy to return one big prim versus 100 little ones?

Eventually we will all want to make prims as big or as small as we want.
I say for now limit prims to the best size you determine to be acceptable
within the current system. You are also going to have to fix this land
enroachment problem.

I currently use a single 32x32x40 megaprim for my 1024m2, having made a sculpy of a large floating rock where my house is placed upon. The result is wonderful and I would be very disappointed if people were to remove prims this size.

As with most things, they can be used in both a good and a bad way. Removing feature is /always/ a bad thing. Putting limitations to it wouldn't hurt, though.

big prims ar the handy ones to save prims i my self got a club thats build up whit 20x40x0.6
and a 3 story building build up whit 20x20x0.5 so in my opinioin the prims size max to use seem more the ones below the 100x100x0.5

I suggest that LL:

- consider increasing prim size limit to 20x20x20m for all residents

- consider increasing prim size limit to 60x60x60m (or something similar) for premium account residents

- block creation of new prims larger than this

- find a way of working with residents that currently have larger prims in order to get them removed/replaced by prims below the limits above (note, I don't know what the scale of the problem is here).

I'm assuming that prim size limits can be applied to ownership as well as to creation - i.e. that premium account residents should not be able to create 60m prims and sell or give them to non-premium account residents.

I use them with cut and dimple and trim the HUGE ones down to the sizes and shapes that I need to fit on the parcels of land I've rented, all of them very different sizes and shapes. I am very careful about staying on my side of the property line even if I"m building right up to it.

You've already provided 'support' by allowing them to exist at all.

They have allowed very complicated builds to be extra simplified.

Please don't turn them all phantom. They would be useless as floors or walls which makes up probably 60% of their worth as a prim at all. I don't mind that they not be physical, I haven't had a need for it yet. Obviously if used correctly and creatively they do NOT terrorize or abuse or otherwise grief other players. The good far out weighs the bad.. if you don't bother your neighbors with them. Same with scripts and particles right?

I use them to make Smaller builds more simplified and I can get a nice different shape by butting a few differently cut ones up against one another. What I -= REALLY =- really wish for when building with them, was that they behaved like a normal prim where I can stretch and resize and otherwise manipulate them in the same ways you can the smaller prims.

As for the size limit.. limiting us to 100x100 x ? Everyone isn't mentioning that they are asking to keep the prims but .5? Come on, what if we'd really like a bit deeper of a prim to sink into the sloping ground? Whatever my purpose is for it, won't be the exact same as a lot of others.

If the engines and graphics can't handle the 256's then obviously numbers smaller to that are your cut off. You answered your own question on that one even in a side note. But sim sized prims have their uses. Sim owners can use them to decorate their sims..

Someone mentioned only allowing you to rez if you own the land.. what on second earth??
Seriously? Then none of the 'builders for hire' would be able to help out sim owners who DON'T build - You couldn't create lots of different types of Sim sized builds. And if you cannot utilize the massive size of a sim wide sandbox, then what good are the large sandboxes for? Big Builds!! Lots of tiny ones too... I know.. but they DO have their Excellent uses in my opinion.

Obviously, don't use any bigger than a sim to me... you can use TWO if you really need to cover two sims in a single texture... But they allow for so much creativity and problem solving when it comes to "I only have 400 prims and I need an interesting store design.. but I need space for all my vendors TOO - and I was hoping to put in a little spot for me to hang out on my little land slice... "

Please don't make them phantom. Floors and walls would be rendered useless, as would any real constructive building type builds that utilize them. Please don't totally get rid of them. They obviously don't cause THAT much lag like drawing 300 individual prims DOES!

Okay, I can understand encroachment issues, but the standard LInden trees when resized really large... were HUGE encroachment problems.. and if you have a large house linked to a prim that sits just over your parcel line.. guess what... Lots of encroachment you can't get rid of! Scripts.. are yes, far more useful to grief others with. So this point is yeah.. as others mentioned.. quite moot.

10x10 prims can be stacked together and invisible by script and image to make them a greifers tool. But do the majority of SL abuse them? Wait don't answer that.. I've been spammed with lots of little prims too!


My wish list for "Big Prims"

1: Cut off size - as big as a sim in all directions and manipulated the same way as 'normal prims'.

2: Don't make them automatically phantom for obvious reasons of utilizing them for purposes you may not have thought of before.

3: Don't limit them as a resource only to land owners for what I believe obvious reasons.

4: Let me STRETCH the darn things! PLEASE!!! it would be nice to have a very thin layer for I don't know.. Ice? Water? Water texture to add to the normal SL water appearance to add for Waves, sea life, water texture.. water texture that moves a certain way to make the SL water appear to behave differently for different 'water environments' such as.. Ocean, Pond, Lake, underwater lake, lava, sludge, swamp...

There are so many uses that can be dreamed up that would be just as legitimate as the smaller prims are now. As I understand it, the less prims used, the faster they all load.

It stands to reason to me to ask.. "Then does 10 larger prims rez faster than 60 smaller ones?"

Please bring "Mega/Big Prims" under the SL umbrella of support.. but give them modify abilities just like all the smaller ones. Just think.. someone could use a torus to make a ringworld housed in a single sim.. Now wouldn't that be really cool to go to?!

Now, isn't that possibility why all of us stay in SL to begin with!? It isn't about what other people have already dreamed up.. it's about what you have the potential to build with available tools and how you can push the envelope to make something outstanding no matter what your reason or cause..

Prim limits on parcels have experienced a bit of 'breathing room' through use of the larger prims. We are able to make buildings better, nicer, better shaped than possible with having to use more tinier prims to do the job. Figuring out a large smooth curve for whatever reason.. would be really nice as someone else stated.. just think, you could make really nice roadways for connected sims to bring them together as a major land mass sort of like the mainland sims have roads on Gov Protected lands.

Question:
If LL changed out those roads using bigger prims to alleviate the number of prims being rezzed would it help with the 'mainland lag' issues? Because you are loading LESS prims?

I am usually in private sims.. and I notice lag around mega prims.. only when there are a ton of Spinning prims, flashy scripts, particles, 10 dancing people, music, etc. The prims themselves don't look like they are really putting alot of "Mega Lag" out into the system. I could be wrong.. but I haven't experienced huge lag spikes due to them alone. I run just as smooth as ever and load the buildings faster as it's usually one texture on a wide expanse.


Alright.. I think I'm done. Just, please consider them less harmful than scripts.. if anyone abuses them, just like everything else.. handle them just the same as any other abuse report.. and remove the offending prims or persons misusing them from the game.


Pavig Lok probably has THEE best reply... and has experience in testing them far better than most.

Megaprims are so useful for builders sl wouldnt be the same without them. the 10m limit on standard prims is just too restrictive. I would like to see them continue. The creation of large open structures and spaces, people now accept as the norm, perhaps not realising they contain huge prim components.

Well, there are pros and cons.

It is true that sometimes megaprims can be cumbersome, and even purposely used to create trouble.

I was once contronted to a large megaprim cutting in two the room where I was. But it was enough to click on it to know the owner and ask him to remove it, what he did with apologies.

But they can be very useful too, for any great structure.

In other 3D languages, such as VRML, it is strongly recommended to use large and complex shapes, with all the textures gathered into one. For instance a (simple) house would be made of only one prim and one texture (wall, roof, windows...), and be importet into SL as a single prim. I often did that (not in SL) and it oftens results into megaprims with a large number of faces (thousands) and extra-large textures (4096x4096 pixels). I am not sure, but I think doing that in SL could improve lag and frame rate, and give much better results than having 10, 20... ordinary prims.

So I strongly advise LL to have a look on megaprims, eventually punish abuses more severely, set special rules for them, but don't forbid them. Please don't harm the whole community by the fault of some abusers.

I don't think that mega prims are that useful.

I have built some very large buildings without using mega prims and if I had used them I wouldn't of saved that many prims for 2 reasons:-
Firstly mega prims only come in certain fixed sizes, so unless you base your entire build around mega prims they probably won't fit well and if you do build around mega prims it can mess up the organic flow of the design when you try to force the shape of a building to have dimensions that suit mega prims.
Secondly, the aesthetics of buildings often depends on the detail. I've built buildings with over 5000 prims in them, without using any mega prims, and even if I used mega prims I would only save a few 10s of prims because there aren't that many places where they could be used.

A technique I use to cover large, relatively flat areas and save on prims, without using mega prims, is to use twisted tubes or toruses. Applying the correct twists etc to a 10x10x10 tube or torus can create a disk that is 19.5 in diameter and these can be set out in a hexagonal pattern to cover large areas, reducing the prim count by around 50% compared to 10x10x0.5 boxes. Additionally by altering the twists slightly these disks can be made bumpy which helps greatly when simulating natural ground or cave walls.

A good place to see what can be done without using mega prims is the sim Cathedral and surrounding sims (although there are a couple of mega prims lurking in the surroundings). Another good place is the sim Secret Reflections (probably the largest cave constructed in SL).

I also think that improvements to the physics engine are more important that prim saving with mega prims. I've run foul of the current physics engine many times and I'm keen to see improvements there.

However prim limits can be very restrictive anything that can either help people save prims (or can maybe allow prim limits to be increased) would be great.
Would Havok 4 reduce sim load so that prim limits could be increased?
Could Havok 4 cope with increased prim sizes, a 20m limit rather than 10m for example?

Something else that might help people reduce prim counts (when building artificial ground) would be add texture options that would allow prims to render as though they were terrain (https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-276) as this could mean that good looking artificial ground could be created without having to use too many extra prims just to break up regular patterns of prims and overly flat surfaces.

Ok, My two cents.
I think that Megaprims are a necessary part of building and so simply delete them would effectly destory more of the good builds on the grid.

So, I believe that once Havok 4 works in the main client, I think we need to jump to 30X30x30 across the board.
Remove physical for all mega prims.
Remove 256+ megaprims from Asset servers
Restrict use of megaprims to those who currently posses them (kill transfer since they can't be made, change the permission no transfer) but reenable resizing of 30 to 100 but in one dimension only (of choosing)
Permanetly phantomize 64 to 256

For those of you who don't think they are useful, more than 50% of the grid's major attractions has use of them, including several corporate sims.
They are very useful, but they are also problematic. If they are causing the current physics issues them kill transfer, physical, 256+ now. Phantomize above 100 now.

As much as I love my megaprims, a glance around tells me there are now too many of them in use. With just a few prims you can block your neighbors' view of even the sky, even while keeping the prims entirely within your own property.

I love my 6-prim workspace, but would sacrifice it to the greater good.

Any tool Linden Labs provides is open to abuse. If Linden Labs wants to protect us, its users, from any possible abuse whatsoever, then it should simply remove that shiny "Build" button.

I personally believe that the size limits on prims need to be enlarged; a maximum dimension of 32m should be a good start. Yes, people could and probably would build overlarge objects. However, people can do this already. Just like some people use scripting to ruin the experience for others.

People are not just crying, but screaming out for larger primitives to be supported! Isn't it about time that Linden Labs acknowledged that the "hack" of megaprims fills a very valid need?

C'mon Lindens. Let me replace the six prims I need for my floor - and the six prims for my ceiling - with just one. Less prims means less load on servers too. Is that so hard to work out?

At the Monastery of Felix Meritis I use one megaprim for a small lake. I used to built it out of 10 regular prims which (a) took me too many prims and (b) didnt work well with transparency and water effects. I think it's a perfect solution for larger water pieces. Keep'um

This is posted at SL Universe discussion on Megaprims:
Desmond Shang Says:

Remove the ability to rez and repair megaprims and Caledon is, in a word, toast.

We’ve been using them peacefully for ages, and Caledon would be trashed horrifically if they were denied.

We’d never, ever look the same again, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

I think I can safely say I’m speaking for a few hundred people here, covering nearly 2 million meters of land and well over 4000 USD a month of tier.

Good luck on your decision.
Desmond Shang
Independent State of Caledon

Rezzable hallucinogen is made entirely of them as is Greenies.
Ben & jerry's is another that uses them extensively.

Another poster said this: ""My neighbor is abusing megaprims! Let's fuck everyone else over because she's inconveniencing me! RAHR!"
she is right.

MY WHOLE CLUB IS MADE OF MEGA PRIMS!!! I am having terrible thoughts now of having to peice together a thousand prims ... the club, the floor, the mall floor....zomg most things on my land are mega prims! It will take me days! If you do ban mega prims or something could you please give me PLENTY of notice, i will start thinking about alternative ways, but this place has been built for over 9 months, so i need time. Is it possible for something to be developed that could take the place of mega prims or something, so that i could just take each mega prim out and use something else without having to peice together a ton of prims? Thanks for listening and not just suddenly bringing in a new ruling like you did with gambling!

In all honesty, I've found them to be nothing but nuisances. If I rez into an area that contains them, *including* privately owned sims, the lag is atrocious as my client labours to rez these giant things. Having megaprim buildings on neighboring plots on the mainland has caused me to move several times, because the lag issues were just too much to bear, and my personal experiences in my own home were quite detrimental because of it.

I can't see a "good" use for these physics defying objects; not when it's at the cost of my personal enjoyment of the game. The dimension limitations imposed on 'normal prims' are there for a *reason*. As a content creator, I refuse to consider them; as a sim administrator, I refuse to allow them on my sim. And, while this is a very selfish stance, I would personally love to see them all deleted entirely from Second Life, period.

While ease of construction is one advantage megaprims offer, they also offer (as has, I think, been noted elsewhere) the ability to increase efficiency in prim usage for construction. and the ability to emulate flat land on the mainland, or elsewhere that has limits on terraforming.

I have used megaprims, particularly when I've needed a flat expanse to build on, or when I knew I would need a larger amount of prims for "post-construction decorating."

Since removal of the megaprims is being discussed, obviously there is a way to set a size limit. I think we should not be asking "Should we allow megaprims" but rather "what sizes standard prims are needed" and try to find a size limit which will meet legitimate construction needs, but help minimize abuse.

I believe that Havoc 4, currently being tested on the beta grid, can help with the convenience issue. Having played some with it, the increased distance across which objects can be linked will help in making "pseudomegaprims" (another technique I have used). However, the issue of prim conservation is still a major concern for me.

Compared to real life, the "prim density" (ratio of prims to land surface area) is extremely low. In order to construct and fill buildings with a real-world appearance in the way the interior plan is laid out, one needs to use a lot of prims to fill the interior. To get the prims, you need a lot of land. To make the land look full, you need large buildings. Large buildings need a lot of prims to build, leaving insufficient prims to give the interior plan a valid real world appearance, with far too much empty space.

Since megaprims can have a detrimental affect upon SL physics, as much as I enjoy the convenience and prim efficiency of them, I do feel they need to at least be restricted in size. If there is no practical way to do that, elimination altogether may indeed be necessary. However, and on the mainland especially, we need enough latitude in terrain editing to be able to ensure that an entire parcel can be made flat. We need a greater ratio of prims to square meters. Addressing THESE issues as well will help eliminate the need for megaprims.

Now, havnig said all that, I just read post number 28. Of all the posts here, including mine, response 28 best lays out the issues and solutions. If you have not yet done so, it's worth investing a little time to read it.

AAGH!!

Please don't take away my megas!

They are house trained and very well behaved and have been for some time.

My max size is 40m but it seems 100m is a reasonable cut-off.

(Campaign against Cruelty to Megas.)

Megaprims are a nuisance. They add to lag and they encroach on other people's land (I have 2 neighbors whose prims hang over my parcel), but because they're centered over the owner's land you can't return them. PLEASE REMOVE THEM.

But there have been times when I wished I could build something with larger than 10x10 prims. Can't we have some sort of compromise? Something as simple as increasing the prim maximum size to 20x20?

It is very usefull to have megaprims around on occasions when you need to get beyond the 10m by 10m regular prim limit. For instance, we use them to hide the surrounding water of our sim. For some terrain designs, it does not make sense for a sim to be an island. They make easier skyboxes to plop down too. And, it makes texturing large flat surfaces easier.

I am aware of the down side of using them also. But if LL can address the issue of enroachment into the neighboring sims and the griefing aspects that it can introduce, then it is still worthwhile to have megaprims as a tool. We just have to use it with caution.