The Big Prim Problem

Well, nobody that I know uses any mega prims that are actually bigger than a region. I am a builder, and I sometimes use the 20*20 prims and occasionally long ones like 40m*10 for walls or floors of large buildings.

The above quote implies smaller megaprims are not so bad for the graphics engine as the ones that are longer than 256m in any direction; is that the case? If it is so, I think it would mean that "normal" usage of mega prims doesn't have any bad effect on sim performance, it's just that some people may not know how to use them in an aesthetically beautiful and resident-friendly manner.

My questions about mega prim allowability is directed to mega prims that are smaller than 256m in all dimensions - are these safe in terms of graphics simulation? The above quote doesn't help clarify this at all. If they are, I know I am a responsible user of second life, so it wouldn't be a problem for me.

Ideas and suggestions
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I think we should instead have a building certification system ...something that works similar to the introduction you get via the HUD object on orientation island, and which can be found in your library. When you pass the building tasks it asks of you, you are certified as having passed minimum building standards, i.e. you can align, rotate and position prims effectively - after that, you are allowed to rez mega prims. If you cause a problem for users by crossing parcel boundaries onto land that you don't own, after you have been certified, you should be treated like a griefer (after the issue is raised with you and you fail to respond constructively).

If megaprims are being removed just because they look ugly when used by bad builders, I don't think it's fair to penalize people for lacking building and artisitic skills (you can only learn by making mistakes), especially if they are doing it on their own land, but it would be fair to raise a concern via community action on mainland, or via estate manager on private land if it's negatively affecting other estate residents.

Final thought
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Unless mega prims under the 256m length limit have a severely -ve impact on sim performance, I would hate to see a blanket ban, especially if the ban extended to private estates where the owner is paying hundreds of dollars/month to have freedom to do what they want (within reason). I seriously hope you allow the 20*20prims no matter what though. I have never had problems with those.

Using Mega prims as Sculpties has enabled Rob Escape and I to make a wonderful Jungle sim at Nyoka Pass and Nyoka Jungle. Do we make screwdrivers illegal because in the wrong hands they can be used as a weapon in RL?

Sun

Like we have a hide particles option in the menu. Can we not have a hide megaprims option? This way, people can use magprims if they want, and if someone with low draw distance is having problems with megaprims, they can see through such prims

...and perhaps hiding could be "hiding it and its effects" - i.e. for that person, their SL client would treat the magprim as invisible and phantom, instead of just invisible.

It's still not a solution to parcel encroachment, so the encroachers have to be treated in whatever way you deem fit, but this could be a good addition on top of that, so even when they are being used legitimately, you can still turn off the option if you don't like them.

As many others have suggested, if the megaprims are an issue somehow because of the griefing potential, its also well true that a LOT of nice buildings could NOT have been done without them. They are a tool, nothing else, its like saying that a baseball bat is something bad and you need a CCW license for it because it can be used to kill somebody, of course a nonsense. Its the way its been used that makes it a deadly tool or a sport one.

What can be done tho is maybe to limit the size and at the same time make them fully usable/moddable.

I mean, a 65000x65000x0.1 prim doesnt really has any reason to be (at least none that i can seriously think about, but hey... im not an expert builder) while for example a maximum size of 256x256x256 (moddable in the building panel of course) makes a lot of sense (even if its surely not the most common used) Same for spheres and other prim shapes.

So, my personal suggestion - for what is worth - is to just leave the "unofficial" megaprims of a reasonable (see above) size as they are, and maybe help us builders and owners simply increasing the build size, so we can actually have large prims that can be used at their full potential, since we all know the limits of the actual ones.

Anything else has been already said so im not going to ass anything else, but you can probably post a poll about it (and follow the results, whatever they are ).

Edit to add: the 256x256x256 mumber is not just a number thrown on a table, you Lindens previosly stated that the client does not work well with prims larger than that, so that would be the MAXIMUM size usable

I use the megaprims as a platform to build on! 100x75 saves a lot of prims. I am keeping them away from the landborders and use an orb to avoid unwanted guests.

Linden...listen to your paying customers!

Big Prims are good for lazy builders all you have to do is take such a prim rez it and you save a lot of prims, ok you save the prims, BUT in every sim i travel and work, and there are huge prims over 10x10 the sim lags very much, in sims where no such prims are but very much normal prims, there is no such lag, even with 30 people there, so the big prims must cost very very much server and client resources, so why using them? i could have used the huge prims very often because im often building very large things, but i never did and never will, because of the consequences it causes to ths sim and the users. I would like a ban of every prim larger than 10x10, ok you have to use more prims and calculate more what you can do with your prims, but if you are smart you can do a lot of things even when only using 10x10 prims and who says that you cant trick with textures for saving prims?
ok tricking with textures is not easy for a beginner but its very much safer than using huge prims for the sim and the users.
And what huge prims can also be used for is a griefer attack, for example there is a little ground for sale near you, and the owner forgot to set the security settings, the only thing the griefer needs to do is rez his huge prims there and move it into your place the center stays on the for sale land, but the attacked one has the problems because he looses for the time of the attack a lot more space than if the attacker could only use 10x10 prims.

Leave all the ones that are useful for Builders, i.e. those under 256m in direction. Get rid of the ones that only exist for people to muck about with. A better idea - how about an LL produced range of oversized prims, where the centre is actually the centre, and that can be shrunk down from the original size.
Encroachment doesn't really come into it then, as there are processes in place to deal with encroachment from prims of any size.

I can understand how these could be abused however I think a ton of people use them for the good myself included. I think some changes maybe need to be made to allow for some larger prims then what we have now if your going to do away with these.

Oh and BTW - Oversized prims do not cause lag, if anything they reduce lag as the client has less objects to draw...
Perhaps peoples percieved problem with lag is caused by builders using huge images to cover there oversized prims faces with a certain level of detail.

I use the mega-prims in builds an in rock creation.
My geuss is that the ones up to 128m are usefull for having a platform above a water when the land can't be leveled above the 20m waterlevel.
Even with the VAT issue my geuss is that EU citicens gonna buy smaller land and that inplements that they have a conforntation with the prim limiet.
In build the ones up to 100m i used frequently cous when having a sim to play with the buildings are made fast and easy. Even for a 32x16 (512 qw/m) parcel. A 32x32 prim with 50% cut (leaving a 32x16 prim) is a fast and verry nice way to make a starter home because the parcel only supports 117 prims.

When the sculpty where inplemented the creation of rocks are a fact, i mean rounded not the tupperware square edgy kinda rocks.
Compare a rock made out of a 20x20x20 sculted prim and try to even make the same with the 10x10x10. When i say the same its must look the same, Well you can't so therefore the huge prims are an addition to sl, but within limits.
I even made a holodeck with 50x50 prims in a few hours, try that with a 10x10, not only dous it takes more prims but also more scripts and all the photo's that has to be loaded, that gonna be more laggy then the one with 6 x 50x50

I have been a victum also of some griefers that uses the megaprims other then in builds.

So my idea. Mega's are an addition to sl and get in some cases the tupperware view of sl down to almost 0, mega's over 128x128 is 1/4 of a region are just not usable i geuss. and if you hold more then 1/4 of a region in the same sim well then you have prims enough i geuss to place 2 128x128 ones.

N.b. Gene Replacement have made an awesome thing, but just saying it leads towards terrorism ? Even a carkey can be used to kill someone. Well all can be abused, that the way of the self.

hi

Banning huge Prims totaly would also have a huge impact on the SL-Economy. I for instence use them for my Malls to reduce Prims and thus alowing more Prims to be rendet. If i would have to build everything with normal 10x10x10 prims, I would have to reduce my shops from 40 to about 20 and doubling the leaseprices to be able to pay the same amount of Tier. And I am by far not the only Mallowner using these bigger Prims to reduse the Leaseprices...

From reading the first pages here, i can agree that usually the max size used is between 30-60m. Prims larger than that are not soooo common meaning that the sizes smaller than 60 m should definatly stay. Even better would be to increase the max size of Prims to 60 m, as one then would not be contstained to the available sizes.

The Prolem with abuse, well, that can also happen with smaller Prims. Maybe one should include an Option in Land allowing huge Prims to be rezzed, like this everyone still could build with huge prims on their own land, but others not...

Michelle

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hannover%20City/52/154/22 (+- 800 huge Prims used in this Mall)

The size of the regular prims is for me to short to make it possible to create the shapes i want to create. The design of buildings and other things in SL is most of the time boring. Or a bad design or a bad copy of RL designs and arhitecture. For me the mega prims makes it possible to create design which you may expect in a 3D world. I experiment with it. I try to get shapes which are not common. The only handicap is the not scale options. I would suggest to the Linden to give mega prims free. But with all the optionsas the regular. I think most of the creators who are used to work in Blender or Maya, and so are not used to have the size borders, would be fond of it. It might even attrack designers. And get them enthousiastic to experiment with them. SL needs to surivive by getting creative people inside.Designers which keeps it interesting in stead of a pulp version of RL.

It think that the very large prims should be removed from the sims where they are causing problems. I am thinking of prims larger then 100 meters (thats just my idea).
However it would be very good to investigate what is an acceptable size to use and allow the viewer to manipulate these prims fully. Maybe even with a special toggle/preference in the viewer.
As already stated many times, the use of large prims greatly reduces the prim count on lots where not many prims are allowed to be used.

Is there anyone of the Lindens that can explain what the background for the current size limitation is?

Regards,

Pietrpost Koenkamp.

If anyone wants to see oversized prims put to good use, visit my sim @
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Willowtail/141/78/29

Megaprims are useful. The 10m by 10m limit on ordinary prims is, from a building point of view, somewhat restrictive and can lead to endless hours faffing about trying to position them so you don't get thatfuzzy flickering line between them - and so that you can match the textures seamlessly. If we're going to be prevented from using megaprims, is there any chance we can have larger ordinary prims?


I've used a few of the smaller megaprims on my waterfront property just to provide places avatars can stand without getting wet (well, you know what I mean!). If they are going to be banned, I'd suggest a month long amnesty to give people time to rethink their designs.

Not sure why I'm posting because there are so many replies I doubt the OP will get this far. However,

* If huge prims are going to be removed from the grid, I very much hope you appease us by increasing the maximum size of regular prims to 16m, 20m, or 32m.

* There's a lot of fantastic content out there that takes advantage of huge prims. Mainly sculpted stuff. I have reservations about that content being broken, but that dilemma is yours.

I'm using 9 40x40 mega-prims as floor on my private region (ewwww :') ).
As floor they're okay ... I've put them on the ground so even when phantom they appear to support avatars. I've had some prims going phantom on me but nothing a relink or duplicate wouldn't solve (plus the prims didn't appear to be intersecting the normal prims that had this problem).

I've avoided the use of other mega-prims mainly because the problems that come with them were known to me. So far no weird things happening with the nine I use. My advise to other builders would be to not use 'm and jsut accept that you need more prims to make certain shapes.

It would be nice if Linden would implement a tool which allows for creating large symmetrical shapes using normal prims. Spheres and pyramids for instance ... if there were a tool that would create a large sphere using legit prims then the need for mega-prims would diminish.

I haven't got time to read through the all the thread, but why is it not possible for LL to make the physics machine support mega-prims? This would be the ideal answer as I would love to be able shape and cut some mega-prims. I know it's probably got something to do with the vertices but is it an insurmountable problem?

Anyhow, there is nothing intrisically wrong with them if used sensibly, which I'm sure a lot of people must have mentioned in the thread. Griefers use scripts in nearly everything but I don't see a call to remove scripts from SL. I use mega-prims regularly for prim use reduction but very rarely over the 32x size unless building boundary walls/fences. I once owned a mainland sim that was surrounded by ad-farms and some ugly build and I enclosed the entire sim using 100x prims and some lesser to fill. I did the phantom and transparent on one side to them all and never once got a complaint and I certainly didn't notice any adverse effects.

There is also an economic effect to consider. I use mega-prims to cut down on prim use and therefore I am able to either offer more prims to my tenants and therefore I have more paying prims. Or, I have more to use to beautify the sim for all tenants enjoyment. Taking away mega-prims will add extra cost to renters and less beautiful sims in SL. As somebody who's just been hit by a 17.5% VAT charge removal of mega-prims is another hit on my bottom line you are handing me.

As for the contention that you will have to remove them from private regions because they will be imported into mainland I find this ridiculous. It's my land I can do what I like there within reason. Why is it so hard to say no mega-prims on the mainland and enforce it?

So in preferential summary;

1. Keep them and try to get the physics engine to support them
2. Keep them up to a 40x size and have LL sell larger prims for pre-approved use with their [LL] own 40+x size mega-prims
3. Remove them and increase sim prims by @5%
4. Just leave them alone and deal with the griefers not their tools

Just recently SL has taken a lot from the residents in world. we suffer terrible performances, inventory loss, we now have this wonderful VAT issue to contend with and now the issue of megaprims has arisen..again. I do wonder why you've picked now, when everything in world is such a disaster, to raise this again? I, for one, avoided the use of these prims for a long time as they were looked on as something bad that had crept its way onto peoples lands.

Recently,however, I've began using them for pathways around my sims - this is fantastic for saving me prim useage (especially as LL won't even consider the idea of buying more prims if needed) and avoiding the 'join' that sometimes appears when using transparent objects. I'm also started to use them for large rocks and various other items. They are an excellent resource for so many people, surely you can't really be thinking of taking something else away from the residents that, for the most part, actually benefits them?

I understand that on smaller plots these could be annoying but if they do overhang your piece of land (as mentioned earlier) this isn't a fault of the prims - but one with your neighbour and sadly no matter what size prims you have, these rude uncaring people exist everywhere and - as in rl - always will.

I would also add that if these prims are finally and officially accepted, can we be allowed to make our own sizes? if we weren't limited to the shapes we have acquired from others then we could create items far more specific to our needs (rude neighbours could also no longer blame set sized objects for their badly designed lands).

So please strongly consider not only leaving these for us to use - but improving on them and giving us more flexibility. We've put up with a lot from LL - it would be nice to finally get something back.

I think a size maximum of 60 sounds like a good limit. I can't see a reason for anything over 256.

More variety in sizes would sure be nice.
10x 60 , 10 x 50 ,10 x 40 etc
20 x 60, 20 x 50, 20 x 40, etc
Or a way to make regular prims in bigger sizes.

The grief aspect is something you just need to start banning people for. If they can't use the tools responsibly shut them down.

i use huge prims - but always with a reponsible nature - i haven't come accross huge prim parcel encroachment - though i have come accross plenty of 10x10 encroachment.

They are good and especially useful when cutting down the amount of prims used in buildings.

Surely parcel encroachment can be dealt with in a support request as normal - with repeat offenders being smited from the heavens.

but a 65k one is just umm too large!!

I've built entire sims using 1024 X 1024 building textures on a say 40 X 40 or stacked 40 X 60 s to make skyscrapers. If the textures are done well they're quite effective in creating an impressive 3 dimensional static urban facade. I was even able to hide penthouses at the tops or bottoms or middle of of some of the mega prims and fill in with regular prims to hide the fact they're there..or even seperate from the mega prims. It filled the sim totally..created and wrapped you in the "feeling" that you were in a highprimd high detailed city and used a small portion of the prim allotment. I never tried using anything too large. I was happy with being able to create a 200 meter tall sky scraper with 4-8 prims.

Lana Tomba

The problem isnt with mega-prims, as every builder who has posted here has stated, it is with griefers. Personally I keep mega prim use to a minimum purely because they are so inflexible, and the ability to make these prims again would be invaluable. Trying to curve a large object using 10m prims would involve a degree in maths and the patience of a saint. As for silly little items like where a prim floor is needed, it really is a godsend to be able to throw down a mega prim. For example my marketplace skybox sits on a 100x100x0.1. that would cost me ten prims to recreate.

One thing I would like to comment on though. An earlier poster said to make a specific skybox prim, then make it phantom... I do wonder how useful this would be to have a skybox you can't walk on without falling through.

There is no concievable need for the ridiculously large prims, I have one in my inventory I can't rez on my island due to boundary restrictions, and if i rezzed it on the mainland I would turn off the lights on a large number of sims, but there are legitimate and worthwhile uses for the smaller mega-prims, in non phantom form.

I have a place that is mostly woodlands where the smaller of the mega prims are used to create big trees, rocks and other features to make the woodlands look more realistic. as well as for making the place have a certain feel about it . I think if they were all gotten rid of this would affect the overall look I have used up to 40x40x.05 to help both reduce prims used on the land and to give the bigger loook to things.

there is plenty of malls, houses, spinning advertisment but these help us not only allow us to have a good view of things instead of these signs and looking into our neibours windows when we look around. it helps create nice backdrops around land as well.

I dont really see a need for the really large ones but the smaller of large prims should stay or atleast let us create up to 20x20 if they cant stay

My 2cents (I haven't read all comments before me, when I have a few days to spare, i maybe will, so all these will probably have been mentioned.)

The good:

1. The 20x20x?, 40x40x? are useful. I checked their impact on sims/havok before using them and they seem overall safe on both class4 and class 5 sims. (no higher physics timing).

The bad:

1. Any larger size is problematic (150,256,65536 etc), due to huge boundary issues. Esp. when used non-phantom.
2. The fact current sizes are limited is the MAIN reason for issues: Due to the fact that only a 20x20x60 exists, and this one is being modified to 20x20x? by using primwrangling (DIMPLING it and switching back to cube/cylinder).
3. point 2 is causing a lot of rezzing/boundary issues. (You can't rez on a dimpled prim correctly or walk on it correctly, also it completely throws the center off)

What to do:

1. KEEP the 20x20x? and 40x40x? prims. These are very useful, and don't seem to cause much issue.
2. INTRODUCE (what??) REAL 20x20x?/40x40x? prims. Meaning, that the Z size is an actual value like 0.5,1. 20x20x? Mega prims are mostly used for platforms. Because the current fixed set doesn't have flat megaprims but relies on dimpling 20x20x60 prims this is causing a LOT of the boundary issues. By actually introducing replacements with correct boundaries, these issues are gone.
2a. Or alternatively, just increase current size limits to 20 instead of 10. Again the main issue with the smaller megaprims are not their size, but the messed up boundaries, due to them being dimpled to create different sized.
3. FORBID any use of 100x100 and larger.