The Big Prim Problem

The post states that mega prims over 256 meters doesn't work well with the graphic engine. I doubt we need them to be bigger than 256. 256 limitis fine.

They do have their place at times. You could add in rules when rezzing a megaprim so that the person rezzing the prim must have at least X sq. m. of land in the sim it is being rezzed in.

You could setup so that only premium accounts can rez megaprims.

Setup megaprims to only be rezzable by estate managers.

Setup megaprims to only be rezzable on private estates.

You could have it so no one except lindens can rez megaprims, and that you'll have to contact a special linden (and prim tax - ugh, horrible) to rez the prim.

Make the physics engine ignore any prim with any X/Y/Z value larger than 10m. so that it will be treated as phantom.

please, please, please let the client build megaprims. The prims we have to choose from are limited in dimensions to choose from.

Well as usual there is a pro and a contra for megaprims.

We used in our club a megaprim for a heaven background. We had before that several (about 60 10x10) squares and that had been a) waste of lots of prims and b) the texture looks horrible because of the edges, every prim had to modified seperately and to modify with the texture and you can imagine that you never get it right with the texture repeatition and offset with that amount of squares.
With a megaprim it had been perfectly easy just to put on the texture and ready.

Well but some things just don't work with megaprims but with usual prims. I tried to build a skybox with megaprims to save prims on the land. Hollowed the big cube, square as floor, quare as ceiling. With usual prims no prob, with the megaprim the hollow was only as if invible box but still there. I kept on floating out of the box against the ceiling. Without the ceiling i stood above the hollow in air as if the box was still solid

Another problem is rezzing on a megaprim. Works never for me. I always have to build a usual prim on the megaprim to rezz the item then on the new object. Kinda annoying

And annoying is too that some people use such HUGEMEGAENORMOUS prims that they go over complete sims and further. Not only once we had such a prim right through our club, the land of it into the next parcel and further when the location of the root of the prim has been 2 sims far away in a sandbox. It is hard to get with the edit mode the owner of that thing because it is that far away from the root to tell him to put that thing out of the sims. *if* they ever do that. And one can't to anything about it like a parcel return because the root isn't in the parcel where it shows up.

A pity is that it isn't possible to rezise megaprims. One has certain sizes and they are not changeable, if they are 5 meters to long one has to take a smaller one with additional usual prims.

I don't think that Linden Lab should remove them... i would suggest to improve them but i wonder if that is actual possible. And due to graphical or performanceproblems residents should be more responsible and cautious with the usage of megaprims instead of taking it for *everything* possible.

Well i like Megaprims when they are used responsible and i use them myself, but i won't use them for everything big

Just my 2 cents

I say keep the Megas. They help reduce prim usage.

Many seem to forget that the basic SL grid is 4x4. The 20x20 - 32x32 -16x32 megas when properly used can be a life saver. The 10x10x10 is not even along the grid and if you properly build on modules 4-8-12-16 etc, you will be soon using a excessive amount of prims in buildings.

Griefers are griefers and they will find ways to cause damage anyway.

Yes insertion points of some megas and their way of cutting is odd for obvious reasons. Rezzing on a mega is sometimes difficult, but the advantages are too great to get rid of them, not considering all the work done all over SL already.

That is an additional reason why it is time for Linden to consider implementing larger sizes legitimately (what about 8x12- 8x16 etc...). Limit the size to 64x64? YES! Eliminate all megas alltogether? NO NO BAD IDEA!

The only problem I've encountered with the mega-prims is the way they are displayed on the mini-map. Current neighbors are using them, and though the builds are within the limits of their parcels, the prims look as if they are spanning across my property on the mini-map. This isn't a big problem, but a glitch, I suppose.

What about elminating all huge prims from inventories, but leaving the ones rezzed on the grid, if this is possible? Then expand the build tools capability to let us make bigger prims. I think a 50m3 limit on all prims is useful.

One question... why was the limit set to 10m?

In the Mainland the 4 m terraforming limit makes it difficult to urbanize some times.

What do you resort to then to equalize?

The old Friendly 256x256

Oh, OK, We develop SIMs

Leave it be for G sake!

i use them to help layout large builds. put a texture on the 100 x 100 prim with a 100 meter rule on it and its a big ruler. useful for recreating historical sites or actual real life builds in sl.

i have not needed to use anything larger than the 100 m ones.

would like to see them adjustable in size

would like to see the volume detection used to establish prim perms.

As it stands I am on the fence as far as should they be removed or left alone.

But I feel that if a "mega-prim" is used in an abusive manner, and determined by LL to be abusive from a complaint lodged, that prim and all mega prims from the abuser should be removed.

The mega prims that are being used by NON-abusive people should be left alone. (No I don't take this stance because I have mega prims.....because I don't have a single one)

EDIT: I no longer agree with myself on this paragraph due to some valid responses on this thread and elsewhere.

{I also think that all mega prims regardless of use should be flagged as non-transfer so as to minimize the spread of the abuse possibilities.}

Now as far as how these are used to abuse others, this brings up something in general that LL NEEDS to address.

ANY prim or linked set of prims can be used to encroach on another users property.

What needs to be done is some sort of prim location check verses where the object was created or rezzed.

Meaning this:

If a prim was created or rezzed in user A's property then dragged to the property line, the sim or grid checks the dimensions of the object and doesn't allow it to be dragged over the property line.

So a 10x10x10 cube stops when the center of the cube stops at 5.1m from the property line.

For linked sets, the length of the link on the plane that involves the property line crossings is taken into effect regardless of where the parent in the link resides. Then just like the cube example stops at .1m from center of link set away from property line.

This would obviously cause issues with things like vehicles or whatnot, so land flags to allow object entry (much like allowing running scripts) would need to be developed.

Also there would need to be an exemption for attachments.

Another thing that would be nice is a more robust land/object management tool set in regards to things like this. Where one can specify if a neighbor can cross property lines on one side and at the same time not allow another neighbor to cross.

For Second Life residents on a shoestring, having a ten meter limit is a severe restriction. Since a 512m2 parcel is limited to 117 PRIMs, it seems obvious that you are going to waste a number of those creating simple things like border fences or walls, platforms and the like. As a 16x32 owner, I would like to have larger limits on PRIM creation through LSL, and some control over who can place a platform at 700+ meters across the entire SIM.

Being restricted to existing MEGA PRIMs often means you are using something big and ugly just because you needed two of the three dimensions.

Thanks for listening.

What you're really want when you buy land are prims. Mega prims really help lower the prim count of a build, and I think over-all are generally useful. If you take away mega prims you are decreasing the value of our lands in a way as we would need more prims to fill the same space.

If you do decide to limit prim size please do it in a way that matches parcel boundaries like multiples of two instead of five. Prim size limits are one of the minor annoyances of second life. When building, we should be able to create prims at least as large as the parcel we own as long as it doesn't interfere with physics. Size limits and the whole setting alpha to zero only via script is incredibly annoying. >.>

My one experience with using megaprims was rather dreadful. I had tried to rez one on a friend's land and lost it. Actually, it and it's twin were there, but I couldn't see them at all. Suddenly I was lofted and pushed over to the neighboring parcel (where there were ban lines and it was a rather odd experience). For about an hour I tried to find a place where I could stand to get rid of these things off my friend's land. Finally, I found a way to get near the other boundary line and could finally SEE the stupid things to delete them.

I'll stick with dancing and creating animations.

If they stay, I think they need a warning label upon rez attempts.

Well IMHO it is and isnt a issue, Im for one am glad to see that the giant 65ksqm mega will be killed that is just a complete sim lagger as I have personally seen in mature sandbox. I think its reasonable to allow any of them honestly under 128m³ as alot of people have allready have stated the primary one that is used in alot of building is a 20x20x.5 megaprim for building considering the fact this is a 4 to 1 ratio of prim usage against the std 10x10. It is a good thing Ive personally spawned just to test the load on a sim 2000 of the 20x20's (with the sim owners pemission of course) and to no obvious issues...

I think the biggest point and very valid reason to allow them was stated by Zoren Manray

Quote: Non Cubical mega prims can be quite useful. one bane of many of builders out there is no conventional way to make a curving or circular structure with a radius larger then 10m without having to put up with a blocky sometimes imprecise curve made from multiple cubes at different angles. This process not only makes texturing it very hard it also can use a large number of prims depending on how rounded the builder wants it to look. also if a dome is wanted with a radius larger then 10m again that is nearly impossible with current conventional methods. Mega Prims solve those problems along with others.

This is a very VERY BIG positive. Now there is also a solution around this as well.... a NEW primative setting that will allow someone to automatically set a curved prim to be rotated around specific radii point. So that a arc can be specifically set without much error. Eg. you need to make a 100m flat circle (note Im refering to a outline) just by setting the radii point. Your arc is automatically rotated around the radii point. So that when joining several of arcs together they will be aligned properly since you are rotating around a specific radius point and distance. Making duplicates is easy but when placing them edge to edge it is not that easy to have them fall inline to each other. If you think it is, make a 10m by 2m arc with a cylinder and then try to make a complete circle. Its not that easy, unless maybe you are a math professor with guru knowlege and calculations for 3d vector calculations to automatically know how many it would require, what is the angle setting for each one and the vector position as well.

Bottom line is big prims have a very valid use in SL as well some people use them for harm as well. This needs to be carefully weighed out. but to be realistic as I stated above over 128m³ is pretty much over kill. I would like to see the sizes limited but not all of them eliminated either.

I use mega prims on my personal island.. in fact, I'm not sure I would be able to have the place I have without them.

We want to create an environment that everyone can enjoy, the sim prims are low enough when you really think about it, removing large prims would really hinder any possible improvements for it.
Encroaching on land? Easy fix, set auto-return.
Prim-drift is a problem, big or small prims.
I'm paying for the land I have, 300$ a month.. I should be able to use whatever prims I choose.

I use megaprims in the 20-50 meter range on many builds. They help keep down prim count on custom builds. From what I see in SL most of the problems with this type of prim come on the mainland with small properties of 4096 and less.

When not used correctly in SL they add to the junky appearance of mainland.

Experienced builders know how to use these prims without adverse effects. Limiting megaprims won't solve the mainland junk or lag problems. It will always be junky and lagging without zoning and community planning.

*** Copy of email sent to Michael, Robin and Philip ***

(my RL info and some confidential info removed)
========================================


Michael, regarding megaprims,

I am a sim owner with hundreds of residents across what is now 29 sims
(known as "Caledon" collectively, searchable that way).

One of the key ways that Caledon survived the 100 USD/mo price
increase of new sims (Nov 2006) was by using megaprims for the
infrastructure that makes Caledon valuable to residents. We regularly
use prims 100m long for roads, rail, and large structures.

Could we do this without megaprims? Well, sure, we could build it.
But with the remaining prims, getting a sim to pay for itself and be
financially stable becomes more than just 'difficult'.

Between that, and potential price increases to my older 195/mo sims in
2008... I can only raise my pricing so high before there is an
unsurvivable backlash.

After two years of keeping hundreds of residents happy, I would
daresay that I have some 'grass roots' understanding of what people on
the grid are willing to pay for. Long term, Caledon will be deep into
a financial danger zone if I try to squeeze even more out of paying
residents.

I like to think that the Caledon region is something you can point to
and say: "look, this is what can be done" when showing the platform to
other customers. Without gambling, pixel prostitution, the tawdry or
the questionable.

We try really hard - we try to be a huge braking force on user churn,
a considerable mainstreaming influence and good press for the grid at
large.

If megaprims are affected, it's precisely like being hit with higher
tier, except I'd have to find residents to cut back or evict to
recover prims. Communitywise, I can't think of anything more horrible.
I'd lose several sims of forest, a city in the sky, many kilometers
of roads and rail - and have *literally hundreds* of very, very angry
residents.

Indeed there are griefing issues with megaprims and do not dismiss
them. If there is some way to find a mutual solution, pretty much
everything is on the table as far as I'm concerned.

I'm eager to discuss all this with you in an exploratory, 'non rant'
way because in the end, we both win or lose together. I can show you
precisely what we would lose on the grid, explain why it's important,
answer any questions.

True, Caledon isn't 'all that' and you would survive just fine without
us. Yet we aren't alone with these issues - it's *harder* to make a
classy area fly. When people visit the grid, wouldn't it be nice if
there was a Masterpiece Theatre or two to offset all the Jerry
Springer out there?

* * * * *

Attached is a dream of mine - a .jpg map which would be a continuation
of Caledon and hopefully another super-premium destination on the grid
approximately winter 2008/09. It won't financially fly without 100m
megaprims for roads, rail, natural areas and so forth.

Warm Regards,

Desmond Shang (second life)
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I would have to agree with most people.

1. Anything bigger than 256 probably needs to go.
2. Keep the 256 and below.
3. Make normal prim limits a little higher than 10m.
4. Be happy!

I think if megaprims over 256 are a problem then allow any prims UndER this size. I am a builder and have used megaprims in a couple of my builds. If used properly and responsibly people do not even notice they are there, which should really be the case with ANY prim.

As a builder, I feel that Mega-prims are a great answer to keeping prim counts low. Although they are difficult to work with due to the massive size, and the fact that it is a bit of a guessing game about how they will be oriented upon rezzing. The make great privacy walls, floors, and regular walls.
The only problems that I have had with Mega-prims have been during my own person use of them and discovering that the prim is actually radial cut & twice the size it seems, which creates a very large invisible wall in the way. My solution would be to allow builders to make new prims which are larger than the current restrictions, but perhaps make it so that they are not able to be linked to other prims.
I have never had a problem caused by being abused by Mega-prims. There was a time that I was trying to place a prim on a fairly small plot of land, and it was continually returned to me by automated security because I crossed the borders with it while I was in the act of placing it, but that was my fault.

Michael-

Sort and sweet:

Megaprims are so exensively used in so many ways across the mainland and private estates that their removal would be a devasting blow.

I suggest:

* Allow land owners to return any objects that partially encroach onto their land. (I know there are concerns regarding this ability, but hopefully they can be overcome)

* Make all "rogue/legacy" megaprims NoCopy and NoTransfer.

* Allow us to use 'Official' megaprims, by adding a pull-down to the [Features] tab, call it Oversize or something with options: Normal, Large, Giant:

-- Giant: up to 64x64x64, and like trees: perma-phantom, unscriptable, unwearable, unlinkable and not able to be made physical.)

-- Large: up to 32x32x32, phantom-optional, but also unscriptable, unwearable, unlinkable and not able to be made physical)

-- Normal: exactly that, and the default for new prims.

Anyway, good luck with this dilema.

This post puts it in a nutshell for me. I would be interested to know if there were some way to allow larger prims up to a limit... the largest megas I've ever had a real use for have been (nominally) no more than 40m in any (visible) dimension.

Of course the nature of some of the objects is such that to get a 40 x 20 x 0.8 platform (when I might have preferred a 36 x 16 x 0.25 prim given free choice) I will often discover that the mega labeled as such is actually a hollowed partial section of a vastly larger cube, something that I'm guessing adds at least incrementally to lag on the sim, for no reason other than that I feel the need for (in the listed case) 1 prim where 8 prims would otherwise have been necessary.

Would there be a way to make prims above the 10m^3 limit more fully definable and resident-creatable, but not as accessible to scripted manipulation, as I am guessing that it's the potential for scripting accidents and mayhem that are at least partly an issue when it comes to keeping the dimensional limits where they presently stand?

I have to laugh at the naivete of the early responder on the blog who said he'd "never seen" a mega prim. Wholesale elimination of megas, should that be the course chosen by Linden Lab, would very likely come very close to the loss of casinos in terms of destructive influence on what remains of Second Life. Undoubtedly there are many items for sale inworld that incorporate at least one megaprim as a key feature, and not always one that is apparent to the eye.

With the advent of sculpties and their bounding box issues when it comes to incorporating them into builds -- particularly as steps, but also in a fair number of other large-scale applications, invisible megaprims, used as collision surface substitutes, are often the most practical, cost effective and (I suspect) lowest lag expedient.

My one wish is that they were more adaptable, and more consistent with the rest of SL object behaviors and physics. It is that incompatibility that makes me, as a non-griefing builder, forsake their use in many situations (such as flooring) where they would have been the preferred choice, were it not for their oddish characteristics.

Aw,.. so now I know what the giant thing with Porn/S&M on it in Paratrea is called.

This would be VERY helpful for buildings and some other things people have noted.

Unfortunately, the only time I have run into them thus far they were being used to block off shoppers in stores, dropped in one of my rentals,.. or,.. well... my friend has nick names for the Cement Box next door with S&M on it. I always say,.. " It's not like my shop is much better. Besides the most expensive stores right now are just black cubes."

Will this increase the limits on size of prims or still have to be done however the current Megaprims are done?

If it's not public knowledge then trouble makers will containue to covet it like has happened to 1337.

I would think an important rule of thumb for size limitations is if you can't see the limits, then it's gone too far. I could imagain 50 or 100 meters as the limits, but not 256. Not that I haven't seen buildings that I now know were built this way.

I rather like Jopsy's suggestion.

Other than that, yeah. Kill the insanely huge ones, but keep the smaller ones.

I have a massive treehouse that I love, made from two sculpted 20x20x60s, with really cool roots that burrow into the cliff surrounding it, made from... 20x20x20s and one 20x20x60.
It's on my own island and hurts no one.

I build. I've done very large castles, -round- gazebos, you name it...
I don't use megaprims.
In my opinion, the issues they cause with the physics engine far outweigh the benefits. You have a packed club, and the floor is megaprims, each person in that club is colliding with that floor constantly, killing the physics and driving lag up.
I'd rather take 20 prims and have a floor that doesn't cause lag than use one megaprim and take that risk.

Phantom megaprims are fine... But, please, do something about the rest of these oversized, laggy prims, whether it's making changes to the physics engine or setting them all phantom.

mega primes have a definite use in prim limited areas or areas that need alot of prims for detail work in one space but cannot afford to waste the extra prims on the FLoors and walls.

I am furtuante too not have suffered from any mega prim abuse instances that were not minor and easily avoided so I do not really have any input on what is wrong with them.

An Idea I have is for LL to create Megaprims that are not created via a glitch/modified client, or any other means. I think there is a real need for these large prims for things like floors, walls. Skyboxes, any place wher ethe scope of the construction would involve alot of prims being wasted to create flat surfaces.

Mega Prims are very useful in business applications. A store needs to limit the number of prims it uses for the actual building thus using mega prims for the floors and ceiling are very useful. Although I don't see much use for the prims beyond 100x100. There is the obvious parcel encroachment issue. But most experienced builders or at least people with some skill at manipulating objects can easily avoid this. Aside from the abusive uses, mega prims are very useful and the abusive aspects are not limited to mega prims but to everything. Small prims can be just as abusive.

I believe if used wisely they don't cause a problem. By wisely I mean not using the gigantic sim-sized ones unless of course you own that sim. I did have an occasion once where a prim the size of almost 3 sims was lost by someone , it encroached onto the sim I live in and I had to call a Linden to remove it.

Of course most people won't realize at first that the huge prims still have a partial "field" which you do not see until you select the whole prim and can then see where the edit boxes are outlining something invisable. Then you know that in actuality the prim although cut to be 30x30 prim, may actually be a 50x30 meter prim, the other 20 meters not seen but still taking up space.

So its important to take that into consideration when using them, especially at parcel borders. You may be unknowingly encroaching on someone elses land. Also that invisable "field" of the cut portion of that prim will act as a barrier, unless the whole prim is made phantom.

I find them very handy and prim-saving and use them as texture lawns for my parcel. I'm careful to make sure which side is facing my neighbor as to not encroach upon them. I also make the lawn phantom, allowing the ground underneath to act as support. I find it doesn't cause any lag at all when made phantom.

It took me awhile to figure this all out by observation and by caring how my neighbors might view something huge next to them.

Thanks