ratings reform revisited

I'd pay an even heftier sum to be able to rename other players, just to cause trouble. "Cankles Midnight" is tickling my fancy at the moment.

I pay for 1500m2 of land that I made into a park and a place to hang out with neighbors. How am I seen as a financial liability? I also dump all money I get in my stipend into the community. If this approach is putting Linden Labs into "financial ruin", there are some serious issues here but I don't think the cause is the rating system

There actually are serious issues. Basic and low-tier premium accounts often consume resources far in excess of what they're actually paying for. Operational costs for SL are not cheap, even when compared with other MMOG. Ultimately, I think the Lindens need to reexamine the way they handle inventory and retool the pricing structure.

Ah, I wasn't referring directly to you - I was referring to the people, who up until six months ago, were getting a free ride. They used the rating system to circumvent paying for a premium account. If everybody had a $9.95 account and didn't pay monthly, LL would be headed for financial ruin. Without premium members and land owners, the current model clearly would not work. I was merely answering your question, not trying to comment on you directly - we barely know each other!

There's no reason the land owners and premium members should be expected to give a free ride to everyone else. Rating bonuses in any form allow that form of welfare to continue. I don't see a need for welfare in a world where you don't need food, shelter, bathrooms, and can make anything you want with a little bit of effort.

Regards,

-Flip

I like Aimee's idea. Scrap it.

The option #3 given by Jesse - ability to toggle on and off. How would this work? What if someone has all neg ratings given and received and just toggles them off so nobody would know? If you are talking about us toggling if we want to view others ratings on/off that just as much sense. None.

LL would not need to be handing out welfare is there was some
reason or implementation of real "work" to do.

If the content providers need customers with money then one
way to handle that is to set something up (for example) like
prim harvesting. Content providers need prims to build their
objects. They can harvest temselves or pay newbie or anyone
to harvest for them... and then pay them a wage for their work.

Those, otherwise poor people would now have money to go
buy things.

This would help keep the current money in greater circulation,
but would not cause inflation or deflation in itself since no "extra"
money is being taken from or added to SL.


If we do not implement something like the above, then there
ARE going to be those cheap people who never use GOM to
buy more $L .. and who never move to the Premium Account.
Those people have given LL US$10, which LL then pays back
to them with L$250 right off the bat, and then L$50/week.

At SOME point if they stick with it, they will have made their
US$10 back, and now earning a slow profit with doing nothing
more than logging in each week.

Some people have Premium Accounts and buy $L on GOM
regularly. These people are continuing to pass money ($US)
to LL, who then has extra cash they convert to $L and hand
out as stipends, etc.


Why does LL "need" to hand out more free money to people?

Shouldn't they be required to put something in?
Either in the form of "work for wages" or "buy $L for $US".

If these cheap people are not going to put $US in to the
economy (which is probably the case), then they should
be offered a reasonable job to earn $L.

UNLESS you are suggesting people DESERVE to get something
for nothing??? Or... worse yet.... the socialistic view of
income redistribution... where people with money contribute
to SL, and then it gets redistibuted to those who don't want to put in.


Nope...
Let them buy $L or work for $L

Gabrielle

now thats out and out calling a group of ppl whores!

On a side note anyone know what happend to Spitoonie island? I miss it.

Cat:

/140/78/50352/1.html

I miss it too.

believe me huns i've ranted against that plenty... its the 'free money' systems, leave somethin out that gives out $5 L an hour and hordes flock to you and idle... honestly i think active time on a plot shold be counted, only, not away/idle/busy time

and it should be counted contiguously, aka more actual activity counts more than just 5 minutes then logoff, etc

i'm proud to say we do well in the rankings every months and have never ever not once ever in the slightest even thought about gaming the system, we just are around alot and like to talk and have fun with our friends who bring other friends etc.. there is rarely anyone idle/away in luskwood

Ah I understand now.
(edited)

figures.

I think 2+ years of rating failures shows it was a nice but flawed concept. My perferences, in order are:

1. scrap it entirely
2. Aimee's Scarlet Letter proposal whereby your reputation is determined by actual Linden reprimands. This has the added advantage of putting real teeth into Linden enforcement efforts; if I see that you have received 1 LindenNeg, I may be wary, if I see you have 6, I'll probably tport away. That's a powerful deterrent against misconduct, and people with high LindenNegs won't get much opportunity to increase their score there will be little game left for them. In other words, LindenNegs are self-correcting and would likely cause a player to leave prior to LL having to make the hard choice.

I think the recent talk (and virtual failure) of social networking systems (e.g. Friendster) only supports the belief that the reputation system was flawed since conception.

The only way a reputatoin system can work is if it's three things ( just my opinions, obviously, but I think they're good ones )

1) It's 100% anonymous (preventing your friends from gang-rating you into the stratosphere)

2) Not directly connected to financial gain/ruin (if a stigma is developed over someone with a lot of neg ratings, that different than if someone gets a hefty check for being quantitively "good"

3) Compulsory (ie you can't simply withdraw from the system if you don't like it, thus removing its potency... I call this "League of Nations" syndrome)

If we had a system that was designed with those above principles, it'd work a shit-ton better than what we have now.

LF

Why exactly does it figure, Catherine? Trimda shut down Spittoonie for financial reasons, and to do some other projects. Oddly enough, you posted in that thread at the time, yet now have amnesia as to what happened apparently. Nice dig at Eboni though, as usual.

I just pulled up your profile in-world. I don't see any negative ratings. So, er, huh?

"She Turned Me Into a Newt! ...


...I Got Better."

Well, gosh, the L$500 premium accounts are already paying monthly fees to LL. That isn't nothing. I don't know how that figures for non-premiums, but they only get L$50 a week, and that's only if they log in.

L$50 per week, plug the current rating bonuses given out, is what I believe she was referring to.

Regards,

-Flip

When the ratings system was changed, I was unhappy because I saw the ratings system as more of a social tool. I loved being able to rate appearance with a nice comment like - wow, I love that dress. And also, I liked getting the comments (warm fuzzies). I suggested back then that the system be switched to more of and "ice breaker" kind of thing. I honestly can say that I have not met nearly as many people as I did before the rating system changed. I don't think people are as friendly to strangers without it. I can go places now and have no one even talk to me lol. I am not in favor of the abuse of the ratings for game money ~ however, I really do miss the ability to break the ice with a stranger.

That being said ~ I do still rate for a few things. Fantastic builds that I come across (did one of those today), very helpful designers that are willing to give good customer support, and people that just really strike me as deserving of a rating. I think that the rating system is still being used in a productive manner by many and they probably outweigh those that are not using it correctly.'

LOL, when I first started writing this I was thinking - well just get rid of the whole dang system ... but as I wrote - I realized that it I really like being able to give that rating when I want it - and it does mean something from me. So now I am in a state of confusion, however I still agree that it is nice to have the option to neg rate someone if needed - maybe just have the neg ratings stick around for 24 hours or something?

The problem with that Scarlet Letter idea, regarding possible Linden ratings, is the same problem that often haunts these forums: No one gets a second chance.

The idea of discipline - hopefully - is to improve the actions of an individual AND keep him in the game as a positive and contributing member of society. I cringe every time I see anyone anxious to get another individual out of the game (or out of the forums), because that is another paying customer out the door.

If a person has behaved in less-than-ideal ways in the past, the idea of discipline should be to get that person to stop misbehaving. Walking around with a scarlet letter in the world would only encourage them to develop a chip on the shoulder, and be a walking target for more encouragement to misbehave.

Similarly, some people, if they don't like someone on the forums, tend to bring up what that individual may have said or done six months ago - never mind what the individual is saying or doing now.

I would not deal with a troublemaker in a classroom by making him wear a sign that says, "I'm a troublemaker." Likewise, I would not take a kid who has served his time for whatever misbehavior and hold it over his head every time he opens his mouth. Those who are not creating a problem now shouldn't be punished forever by whatever problems they created (or got involved in) in the past.

I am not saying one puts up with bad behavior forever, and at a certain point, an individual will be banned from the game (or the classroom), but that will be due to structures already in place. Humiliation serves no further purpose, and NO one deserves it.

Dignity of the individual is something it always pays to uphold, even if that individual is a mass murderer. Take away his life (or his spot in the classrom or on the game), but never destroy his dignity. It's never necessary, and it always lowers the person who does it.

coco

Is everyone in SL a child-to-be-controlled to you?

The proposal was that the Lindens mark players with visible negative Linden ratings.

coco

Just as an FYI -- this isn't always a valid method in the current system. There are people in the world with nothing better to do than negrate you just because they can. Seriously. Sad as it is, every one of the neg ratings I have arrived that way, from someone and their alts, all of whom I do not interact with in any manner, shape, or form in the world.

Every time I see someone say what you have in the above, it underscores all the more how deliberately malicious this kind of negrating activity is and why it should be addressed.

The current system is extremely broken. It should be done away with... if they go to an eBay style system where seeing who rated you and "why" is provided, that would mitigate things somewhat, but not completely.

Personally, I would like to see a system where alts and mains are linked (CC/IP) insofar as the rating system goes and no one can rate you more than one time, period. This would, I think, make ratings much more valuable on the whole for all involved. On the flipside, I think that one rating should be changeable.

Not so. The Lindens use a point-based diciplinary system that allows past infractions to fade after a period of good behavior. There is plenty of room for mistakes and redemption here.



I disagree. As a Malachi mentioned, if the community has a heads-up when a potential griefer is heading their way, they can take steps to protect themselves. They can sit on a cube, turn on their no-push scritps, or high tail it out of there. The point is, it will be harder for the griefer to grief if everybody is made aware of his predisposition to bad behavior.

And with the reward of having that scarlet letter fade back to a wholesome green after a period of time is a great incentive for good behavior.



OOOOH Yes, BOY do we disagree here!

I'm with Aimee. I've been here a year and have never had any disciplinary action taken against me. Why? I've read the Community Standards and TOS. I did it the very first night I came to SL, because it was a totally new type of place for me and I wanted to know exactly what I was getting myself into.

Troublemakers know that their behavior is wrong. We deserve a heads-up, too. If someone doesn't know that what they're doing is wrong, they haven't made an effort to understand the rules of the community and I'm not going to feel particularly bad if they pay for it.

As much as I'd love to see this implemented, I don't see it happening. Upping the social ante for rule breaking would be inconsistent with Linden Lab's otherwise soft and protective disciplinary policy of total identity concealment.

As a result, I'd hate to lose the negative ratings at this point. They're a sure-fire means of spotting a lot of griefers (the sort who give a *lot* of negs).

I agree Enabran, including your comment on the Linden policy regarding rule-breakers. The Lindens favor has historically fallen strongly upon the perps, so the thought of giving residents warning of potential trouble would be an anathema to them.

However I do disagree about the value of neg rates. Users like FlipperPA Peregrine spring instantly to mind. His steadfast dedication to SL's community has earned him -9, -8, -8 in the ratings. Anybody who knows Flipper can see the folly in this.

You and I both have have -3 in all categories. For me, two of the tripple neg rates I earned from some chickies that were pirating other people's clothing and selling as their own. The other one...well I got that from someone who was perma banned from the forums

These neg rates are not telling new users a factual story about us. According to our profiles we are a band of desperados who will stop and nothing to crash your sim. Nah... Wipe the whole damned system. It's a disaster.