What constitutes hate speech?

"That's a great idea. That's great. But more of a long-term thing. I mean, first we have to focus on more immediate goals." - Jeffrey Goines "12 Monkeys"

If "The N Word" is universally offensive, and a racist term, does that mean that I can abuse-report every instance of it that I hear in the streaming music in many parcels?

<Insert randomness here to brake up the mood so people read the next few lines>
Btw im a killer rabbit planning to take over the world
</random>

See this thing still makes me think, You all bitch you all moan, the same level and amount of abuse comes from both sides if diffrent ways,
no one involved is guilty nor innocent. Why dont you all take a page from A book (of your choice, as long as its legal in your place of residence) and let it rest ?

People dont allways like other people FACT.
So why bother to reply to somthing you find insulting. I mean realy? why waste your time?


And btw, the naming name thing in the tos has been abused so many times in this thread, its kinda funny.

<random>
Needed Python quote:
"Allways look on the bright side of life..."
</random>

Minorities to do not get a free pass to slur other minorities, no matter the point they are trying to make. She said it to be provocative, and voila, it provoked.

Wow, Thanks for clearing that up for me Zuzi. Also your assumption is wrong.

If that would be your real problem you would walk away and not follow me on every thread.



My business success show that most people trust me. For good reason. Most of those who usually pretend not to you can already find on this thread.



I would be glad if you would simply avoid me and not constantly follow me around.



Making general accusations without proof or specifics is slander. My behaviour in world and on this forum is and has always been honorable. Yours is not.



I have not used racial slurs. I used one form of rethoric that is called irony or, dunno, you call that "hyperbole"? Every little child see that when reading it. Unfortunately when I posted two other people posted too, so between Billy's post and mine two other posts appeared. Everybody who check post time can see this.



This is what little abuse report button on this page is for. If you really feel that somebody on this forum violate TOS I encourage you report it. The fact that you decided slander me in public instead is only proof to me that you don't expect forum moderators to agree with you.

I have not violated TOS. But what you are doing and have been doing since months is even worse than TOS violation: You are being outright mean!

I have read the original posts and the ones here. My opinion is as follows…




There is no reason to bring up race on the internet, unless in direct reference to RL. There is no way to confirm if someone is actually the ethnicity they state they are, so there are no free passes when posting inappropriate racial terminology. I will go even further with that statement and say that even in real life there should be no passes on using inappropriate racial hate words, there are better ways to express oneself than to lower oneself to such ignorant levels. I am a believer in free speech and I feel that politically correct speech is not free speech, but if you talk the talk, you can and must be held accountable for what you say.

To the person that stated “when was the last time you heard oriental?”, my response is last week, from a Chinese customer of mine. She refers to herself often as Oriental and I know many other Asians that do the same. That is overall less offensive than the constant using the “N” word is all of its ghettoized forms. Yet, the use of the “N” by Rappers etc in popular American “HipHop” (what passes as Hiphop currently is only a shadow of the form greatness of Hiphop) culture (which has poisoned the rest of the world, even Africa), is given a free pass. The rampant trashy ignorant Thug/HipHop culture that is rampant in SL is given a free pass along with the exponential ignorance of Mafia culture. So if we are going to throw stones, let us throw them at everyone equally and not just reserve them for what we find offensive for the moment.


Anshe, who I now firmly believe is American, or has lived in America and is quite possible multiple people, at least 2, possibly 4, seems to enjoy inciting mayhem and drama in the forums and never fails to make “her” posts as inflammatory as possible. Ignoring them is the best option.

Several points.

As a person of East Asian descent (maternal), I am offended by the use of the word "Oriental" and the stilted, stereotyping references to "oriental signs," objects, clothing, and "services". Few people of East Asian descent use the term, which was an invention of European imperialists a couple of centuries ago. Most people of East Asian descent are very aware of the negative impact of the "pop-oriental" perspective in Western civilization, and take great care not to stereotype themselves by identifying with it. That includes careful, grammatical use of a Western language, such as English.

However, I would not be fair if I did not point out that until a decade or so ago, peoples of African origins suffered great indignities in East Asia, as racism there was rampant. It still is, but conditions are getting better. The "n" word was often used, and the worst stereotypes from American racism were borrowed and used. I do not say this to excuse anyone's behavior, merely to give a sort of context to the issue.

It seems to me that the Cowboy, Whore, and Indian fest in Wixom, or whatever it is, may also have elements of bigotry. If so, that is unfortunate, but perhaps in character, from what I've witnessed. It is really too bad.

I have no information or insight about the person in question. But I will state categorically that persons of East Asian descent who know themselves and know something about the world, and wish to do well for themselves, their people, and all people, are very aware of such issues, and take special care to mitigate stereotypes and bigotry, both among Westerners and Easterners.

I guess if you send Linden Lab more than US$8k in tier fees per year you get to repost deleted threads. At least the revived one doesn't have paranoid acrimony.

Do minorities get a free pass to slur their own ethnicity?

Is it OK for black SL residents to use "Nigger", or for gay/lesbian residents to use "Queer" "Dyke" or "Faggot"?

That is an interesting question. I don't run around calling myself a Hispanic slur, but the theory behind such behavior is that it takes away the power that the word has - it dilutes it. I don't subscribe to that school of thought - I think it is destructive and a vicious circle. What is interesting is it is often used to attack even in the same group, as some self defeating form of racism.

I set up a new store in a mall, and every other word in a song on the streaming radio is a racial slur. It made me uncomfortable to even put my store there, regardless of the origins. If the owner won't change the stream I will probably remove it.

Even if you remove your store, would you abuse report the use of derogatory, racially slurring language in the streaming music?

Would you abuse report it, if it were country-western style and made use of the same ethnic slurs?

Essentially, does the ethnic background of the performer make a difference in how you would react to the slur, and should it?

It makes no difference in how I react to it - I don't honestly know what the TOS is regarding streaming audio though.

I believe it's ok.

Honestly, I do.

As long as they're not insulting someone else and it's all in good fun, y'know? Same as anything else. Girls call each other whores and sluts all the time jokingly. However, if a guy calls a girl a whore or a slut, then he's in big trouble.

It all comes down to the situation.

*

Also, have you ever been to a West Hollywood club? Do you know how many gay guys call each other fags?

it happens alot irl in all kinds of groups. i dunno if that's a good thing (probly not) but i think if anybody has a "right" to use a derogatory word it's somebody who is what the word refers to.

In light of the question that you first posed in this thread, Cris, I would argue that it does make a difference.



A grey area. Apparently, context can be extremely important in deciding whether something is hate speech or not.

I'm not trying to beat you into the ground with questions, and I don't think that you're an overtly racist person. But, I'm curious, with you, with others who read this thread, how would they react differently to the use of the N word depending on context? It's a racial slur, but is it against the TOS for black residents to use it? Do they get a free pass on it now, or is it a universally off-limits term? If it it is off-limits, for speech, for notecards, for advertisements or music in-world, let us then ask ourselves, would we report it equally, regardless of its source? If you set a rap song with the N-word, and a country music song using the N-word in 100 parcels each, and let them repeat over and over, which would get abuse-reported more? And what does that say about us?

IMHO...I believe Anshe knew exactly what she was doing when she said what she did. She could have made her point without using those words. I would have never used those comments to make a point because of the fact that I know that it would offend people no matter how it was intended. Her repost of the whole add (which had to be edited yet again) just confirmed it that she is out to offend and provoke.

What I'm puzzled about is why is this even a debate?? Clearly even Jeska thought that it was what it was because in her edit it says "Last edited by Jeska Linden : Today at 11:38 AM. Reason: remove inflammatory language"

I don't care who disagrees with me so please save it. This is clearly my opinion and I'm entitled to it

Exactly!

LL did shut down the thread.

I am not sure where on earth you are coming from with any of this - I never said any of it was alright, and I did not make the original statements, Anshe did. I have a problem with it period, as I said. Why are you suddenly attributing this to me? I said it makes no difference to me who the source is - meaning i don't draw a line between one group using it over another as being alright.

To answer the original question ...

What constitutes hate speech for me personally ... I always hated it when kids at school called me Chinese or Japanese or any other ethnicity other than Filipino. It is a verbal slap in the face for me simply because it's not the correct one.

The Philippines actually adopted the Orient Pearl or Pearl of the Orient as a moniker like New York City and the Big Apple. So I wasn't aware it was being used as a racial slur until I came back to the States. I was disappointed when I found out ... Oriental had good definitions for me. It's sad to see it tainted by racism.

I've had a situation where me and my family were called a herd of sheep. I was offended and they got an emotional and angry outburst from me. I was probably more vulgar with my words to them. If they called us a herd of Orientals, I'd just call them a bunch of street corner eunuchs. I'd assume they were just playing a game of state the obvious. Ah, we can't win.

As for that thread ... the "china signs" phrase grossed me out. That poster came off really ignorant and small-brained. Anshe's post was edited before I could read it. But I don't think she dropped the slurs to offend the groups associated to it. But I also think it was in bad taste that she did. But I thought it was in bad taste the moment she said "your pussy will go straight up for sale!"

Exercising tact in our posts doesn't mean that we're censoring ourselves. I'd just consider that everyone has different thresholds for intolerance. And that threshold isn't consistent in each individual all day either.

So if it makes me hesitate to click the submit button, then I need to rethink how I want to express that thought. It's not being sensitive or touchy-feely, it's thoughtful. Thoughtful means that brain is actually being put to use.

Here come my two eurocents, pocket them or throw them that is your choice.

1: i don't see the intention of making a racist or offensive remark in Anshe's post. She made a mistake in not weighing her words. She probably could have avoided it, and someone could havetaken offence at it. Next time she'll probably avoid it, if she won't, well, her bad. Not learning from mistakes is always a bad idea.

2: There is a lot of racism in SL, as in real life, going in all directions. Someone takes it lightly someone else don't. I always laugh at the poor moron that called me "fucking jap" (even if i am italian, as clearly stated in my profile), or the few silly people that bashed me for not being american as a nationality or for my english mistakes.
Racism is somewhat embedded in every nationality and more than often even in the education thaught at school in every nation. For instance in the US it's very easy for kids to hate japanese when they read kinda warped history books that use terms like "the day of infamy" and then are efficently supported by Hollywood.
Does this mean that americans are racist and others don't? Naah. The world is completely full of such examples, in all directions and unfortunately there is very little that can be done (in short terms) about it. If you look at history books fromall around the world you will see hunded of examples in wich "hate" is transmitted to kids in the process of education, and many countries have a movie industry that inflates and supports those beliefs in the minds of kids (even if unfortunately in the US this industry is much more powerful than anywhere else, and thus has an higher influence).
Point is that, deep inside each one of us there is an (big or small) hint of racism, we can fight it, but denying it would be kinda pointless.
That is why we have rules, to help us force the racist in each one of us to stay silent.

2a: Sometimes it's really difficult not to hurt everyone's "so called" sensitivity. Reason of this that in many cases the sensitivity of a person is directly proportional to his ego. I have been bashed before because in my SL office i have hung to a wall the picture of Saburo Sakai, the best WWII surviving japanese fighter ace. I have it there because i think he and his auto-biography ("Samurai!" a book that i strongly encourage everyone to read, in addition to being plain beautiful and inspiring it can dispel a lot of "ignorance" about WW2 in the pacific that sometimes slips between the pages of history school books and hollywood movies) are a shining example of honor and of many other very positive ideals. he has been my very own personal hero since i was a kid, and it kinda debaffled me when not one, but three people thought that was an expression of hate towards the US on my part.

3: As much as i am absolutely disgusted by the display of racism we saw (and the worst one wasnt sure from Anshe, whose remarks i think wasnt intentionally racist, as pendastrong stated), i am even more disgusted by some posts that clearly stated a will of getting anshe banned with all means possible. Whoever the target, THIS is hate speech and of the most disgusting kind, and i think the ones that expressed it should be absolutely ashamed by themselves as much as i am disgusted.

Cris, I'm not attacking you. You raised an interesting question, and it touches on other questions. I'm curious, as are you, what is considered hate speech and what isn't? Are the actual words what qualifies something as hate speech, or the intent behind the words? If no use of a racial slur (like the N-word) is acceptable, why are we more leniant with some uses of it (like in rap music) than in others (like in KKK propaganda music)?

I'm offended by being called an "Eastern American". I didn't chose to be born here and there's nothing I can do to change the patch of ground where I happened to land on this fair planet. In fact even the term "American" smacks of European imperialism; why is this land named after Amerigo Vespucci when he was not the first person to discover it? The "New World" (boy does that phrase make me cringe) was "discovered" by humans about 10,000 years ago; unfortunately their writing sucked or was destroyed by some Europeans for what they thought was good reason. Hell, it was really the plants that first discovered this patch of crust, why is this not Liverwortia?

So why the sarcasm? Because we are in a written forum where words are all that we have. But someone's ability to take offense at word usage ought not dictate the available lexicon. This has happened over and over: a clear case is the crippled, handicapped, disabled, challenged, differently-abled progression. With each change in terminology it was hoped that the negative connotations of the former term would vanish and yet it wasn't long before the "new" adjective was tainted.

I am aware that some people think that "oriental" is derogatory. But words are our servants not our masters (Sapir-Whorf notwithstanding). One can choose to get into a tizzy about any categorizing term but should we bowdlerize the language because of the sensibilities of some? I think that people who strive to re-invent the language are trying to cure the disease by attacking the symptoms. That is, if people have a negative stereotype of - as did Gratiano in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice - Jews, expunging "Jew" or "kike" or "red sea pedestrian" will not affect that sterotype but would be replaced by Gratiano's "inexecrable dog". I'd rather not drive such terms underground as they tell me something relevant about one who uses them. My use of 16th century Gratiano was not accidental - this has been happening since words for "us" and "them" were invented. I think the homosexual community did a fabulous job with this Gordian Knot: "you call me queer? you're right, I am, and I'm proud of it". No one can hold you hostage with words if you decline to allow them.

My point is that you may have the right to be offended by my word use so long as I reserve the right to not give a damn about your offense. Contrariwise, I don't personally go around using terms I know my listener will take offense at simply because it is impolite. And if there is someone who is not a native English speaker or is unfamiliar with connotation, I'd cut them a break (yes, this means if Anshe did in fact type "nigger" in some post, I'd let her slide ).

Comedic relief can be found at: http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2666433 Warning: contains a commercial and may not be safe for work. I cannot tell if this clip is a parody or not.

Out of curiosity, has Eminem ever used the N word in any of his songs?