Leakage from SL -> Teen Grid

Dear LL;

Can we have another round of: item/av/clothing/script submissions to the teen grid please

Thanks;

Cat

"the Lindens thought the teen grid would enjoy a game of..." = favoritism to some degree. The minute a Linden makes a judgement call on third party content, the debate of favoritism ensues; right or wrong. Are they unaware of this? Or do they not care?

"The Lindens will end up being paralysed... That's totally unworkable." There is a basis for this factual statement?

What boggles my mind is the tone and wording of some responses. Casually dismissing another person's concerns regardless of their personal motivations doesn't reflect well imo and I'm very sorry to see it. I'm not jealous, yet I'd still like to understand the dynamics of this situation. Can we not have an adult conversation on the topic without this pettiness?

Not a question of entitlement in my mind. It's a bigger question of whether or not LL is sufficiently thinking through the ramifications of the decisions they make in their dealings with residents.

Some here may wish to see this issue as being all and only about jealousy. Fine. But then ask, Is it in the best interests of SL for the host to create an environment where jealousy over their tacit stamp of approval is normal?

If yyou go looking for favouritism, you will find it everywhere. I don't see favouritism in their decision to host a Tringo competition at all. I see it as them having a fun game of Tringo to liven up the teen grid, which from what I've heard needs it at the moment through it's formative days. If you're finding more meaning in that, then I suspect you need to take a step back.

As for my statement about LL being paralysed if they have to accept give everybody an equal opportunity for things to be on the teen grid - my basis for that is that if 1,000 content creators all wanted to put their stuff on the teen grid, do you honestly think that LL has the manpower to be able to do that? To vet everything, giving everybody an equal chance? I mean, really? Of course they would be paralysed by it, which is why it can't happen. Absolutely unworkable. And no matter what workaround they came to to allow this, it would need to be limited in some respect, so you could all jump on favouritism again there no doubt. To be honest, they're best ignoring it and carrying on as they are - they'll be damned if they do and damned if they don't, so they may as well choose their own path of least resistance.

An adult conversation was being had (at least by myself and Hiro) until he started on the slader, abuse report tack - that just got to me as it was completely uneeded and smacked of arrongance. Only at that point was a greater discussion of whatever his motives are undertaken and the ability to discuss the crux of the issue he raised rendered void. He made an issue out of somebody accusing him, he derailed his own thread to a certain extent. Mind you, having said that, I find the whole topic quite laughable. That some people would actually go out of their way to get so uptight because they had a game of Tringo on the teen grid. I mean, come on, it's just a bobbins thing to pick up on. It's drama over nothing, and if you're allowing yourself to see favouritism in that then I'm sure there's nothing I can say to make you see different.

All he had to do was refute the accusation and this thread would of carried on more civily - but no, that appeared to be too simple for Hiro, who prefers the dramatic slander and abuse report route. Gotta love his "cease and desist" bravado.

"Many saw it and contributed items. Some saw it and didn't." - you missed or ignored the part where "Some never saw it because the request was made before they joined SL."

"Charity is usualy for altruistic purposes - not for recognition, profit or self-aggrandizement." - so many factual statements with so little basis in reality imo. On the contrary, charitable donations are a very common means to a self-fulfilling end. Certainly you're aware of this. And as mentioned previously, a "donation" to the Teen Grid of an item which then has a LL "Stamp of Approval" effectively placed on it, has a potential value beyond the donated item itself. I'd venture the bang-for-the-buck is very attractive.

That people don't see the potential abuse of a "donation" is MIND BOGGLING. (sorry, seemed like the thing to say)

It is being touted as entitlement, whatever the reasons for that. Either we're all entitled, or nobody is. At least that's what I've gleamed from this thread over the past day or so. Don't forget a single game of Tringo sparked this off. Heaven help us if somebody's been going round in my skates, or using a Seburo, or something else on the teen grid - we'd have carnage if this is the reaction to a game of Tringo!

I've also never said it's all and only about jealousy - I have said that I'm sure that plays a part. And I am sure of that. Of course there are a multitude of reasons.

Linden Lab only has to answer their phone and somebody will get jealous, cry favouritism, or feel they've had their nose put out of joint. With 35,000+ plus here, no matter what you do, you won't please everybody. Jealousy is part of human nature, there's nothing that Linden Lab could do to remove that (well without brain impants, possibly!)

It took me a while to realise that LL are in an impossible position, and since I have, you know, it's quite refreshing.

It's one thing to go looking for it and quite another to openly invite it. Is there an easily accessible page on this site with information regarding donations to the Teen Grid? If not, then LL is inviting the issue (one of a seeming string of issues that crop up in similar fashion). I have less issue with this TG donation than with the overall perception I'm forming from the things I've been observing.



Whether you or I see it is irrelevant; someone does see it. That's all that matters afaic. I could cite too many examples of how people make decisions based on perceptions. I've even seen focus group participants argue against a scale in defending a perception which was entirely false. I believe it's safe to assume those kinds of individuals are present in SL. And whether they're right or wrong is less important to me than avoiding the issue in the first place.




On the contrary, it would appear you've become personally involved in this topic and I'd suggest you take your own advise: remove yourself and then re-evaluate whether tacit LL approval of content is Good for SL in general. That is the core issue here.



If LL truly wanted to jump start the Teen Grid (which is, after all, a money-making venture), they could easily hire people to screen the content. They could limit donations at one per resident and it could be an ongoing program such that the screening could occur on a first-come first-serve basis with no exclusion. And the program would be well-publicized. I mean, really. It's not an impossible task.

And if I actually put some time into it, I could probably devise a community system of approval which might start with that same content being donated to the Main Grid and placed on a PG sim (thus forcing contributors to check themselves or risk banning).

The bigger question in my mind is: Why does the Teen Grid need donated content? Why not let them get chess board scripts as noted above? the old-fashioned way. The teens don't need anyone's help.

No re-evaluation needed, I'm happy for the teens to play Tringo, walk round in Tinies, get posed by Hiro's posecubes, or whatever else LL want to expose them to - paid for, given, whatever. It's their system, their call, and I'm certainly not going to sit here and get all flustered by it.

But OK, y'all can continue to beat this to a pulp if you like, we're just going round in circles at any rate. I'll gladly remove myself further from the discourse as it's repeating the same things so much, it's becoming a waste of precious finger-breath.

Free youself from such concerns, they're kind of inconsequential at the end of the day.

Interesting. You consider this thread about "entitlement", yet there are a number of issues brought up in the very beginning that go well beyond that issue. And you yourself indicated that you've "never said it's all and only about jealousy". Consequently, I'm confused by your take on this thread. I myself have raised other issues - and they are mostly issues caused by seemingly unwitting support of content by a Linden. Specifically your comment:

"Sounds like Deanna Linden has a Tringo board and they're running a tringo event once a week. Tringo's popular, so why not let the teen grid play the most popular game in Second Life once a week, under the control of a Linden, which is what appears to be happening."

I don't know Deanna, so I have no way of knowing whether or not she realizes that pulling out the Tringo board is free advertising. That has nothing to do with entitlement imo. That has to do with organizational intelligence (or lack thereof).



wrt removing jealousy in this situation, I disagree. Linden Labs could simply not host Tringo games or tacitly support any MG content. Putting freebies out in a welcome area would be fine. Hosting a game or otherwise using MG third-party content imo steps over that line. That'd be like the U.S. government throwing weekly television viewing parties - all tuned to Fox or some other channel.

WHich is exactly what happened. Nothing, however, precludes them from using any item that they have at their disposal, even if it was not submitted during this volunteer process. There were some major restrictions on the donations regarding permissions that would disqualify a lot of content. Tringo is not being given away to users on the teen grid - it is being played in a controlled environment with a Linden owned item. They are not obligated to own every item ever made in SL, or to give anyone full access.



Which is exactly what did not happen, and why this whole thread is a tempest in a teapot. The slightest amount of research into the issue would have shown that they did in fact ask for donations and content for the teen grid. It was very apparent - if Hiro did not read the forums for whatever reason, that does not mean it was not apparent. Additionally, I vaguely remember there being a MOTD about donations as well. Again, nothing about this situation is unfair to anyone. What is unfair is speculation like this thread - when again a little bit of research combined with common sense would have avoided the whole thing.

You miss the point. It's not about supplying the content; it's about effectively endorsing it.

But I am relieved to know you'll no longer be flustered by this. It's much more interesting when it remains an objective discussion free of personal animosity and name-calling. I'm so happy for you.

wrt to a request for donations, I believe the issue is one of adequate communication. And that goes beyond this imo. Between the Announcements which can be lost among newer posts and the sometimes too-quick blurb on the login screen, it just seems like there's a better way to get the word out on so many things. If I were LL, I'd not be happy knowing that people aren't getting the word, and from all the "The Grid is Down" Hotline posts during upgrades, it's apparent to me at least that people aren't getting the word. Yes, it's probably their fault. But that doesn't mean a better solution shouldn't be sought. Companies like P&G are succeeding today primarily because they do exactly this sort of thing.

However, wrt "tempest in a teapot" (what is with all the condescending commentary on this forum?), I think Hiro brought up some interesting issues that go beyond the Teen Grid: from LL's tacit support of 3rd-party product to issues of organizational procedures and the foresight to avoid appearances of favoritism. I consider those real issues and the suggestion those of us asking questions lack "common sense" is unnecessary.

I was expressing my opinion that Hiro's fervent posts are making a big issue out of something very minor. Others felt the same way in this thread- it is not condescending to say so. A lot of it had to do with Hiro's tone - it wasn't a reflection on any of your posts, which have been well reasoned.

As far as common sense, refer to what I said about the Linden's having the right to use whatever content they choose to use. They are under no obligation to provide equal access to everyone. Is it nice when they do? Certainly, but again, it is their system. If they want to provide Tringo as an activity, that is their choice to do so. They are going to do whatever they deem necessary to make the grid a success. That is common sense - their product, their decision.

"Which is exactly what did not happen, and why this whole thread is a tempest in a teapot."

Thanks for the clarification. But may I then suggest you choose your words more carefully next time. As someone posting in this thread and who finds some merit in the issues raised, your broad comment - intended or otherwise - is also directed at me.



Similarly, your comment was quite broad: "speculation like this thread". I certainly have enough "common sense" to know LL can do whatever they want; I've read the TOS several times. That doesn't obviate the questions posed in this thread imo.

Furthermore, this issue goes beyond what Hiro did or did not see posted or what he could or could not have researched. Rather than focus on the individual and how he or she makes a post or for what nefarious scheme they're plotting, I'm surprised reasoning adults can't extrapolate to SLers in general and see a bigger picture. For all I know Hiro had enough common sense to do all the things you suggest, and then still post this thread. Do I care why he posted it when he knew the answers? No. The issues remain. And primary among them in my mind are what kinds of internal policies the Lindens have to avoid inadvertant support of one content creator over another... in effect, to minimize favoritism. After all, isn't that the biggest issue that's been circulating over the past few months?

With regard to content, I'm wondering: Do they have any internal policies to avoid the appearance of endorsement? And does that policy allow a Linden to host an event centered around a chosen creator's content on the Teen Grid? And if it does allow this, why does it allow this when volatile issues of favoritism - real or imagined - will inevitably come up as a result?

The comment Moopf made regarding how Deanna is hosting weekly Tringo games goes to that issue afaic. Like it or not, that is a form of endorsement and can be seen as a kind of favoritism. Is it a big issue? Again, I consider Second Life issues pretty minor. But it is an issue regardless of how it was raised. Can LL eliminate those perceptions? Not in my opinion. However, right now it does appear that they are inviting the perception. And the real shame is that a better means of communication would probably solve this and a host of other things (and to be honest, if anyone read the Hotline posts I made asking for clarification on IP issues and the TOS, LL certainly has a way of not being very direct).

"With regard to content, I'm wondering: Do they have any internal policies to avoid the appearance of endorsement?"

Apparently not. But they need to, desperately.

coco

OMG please ADULTS it is just a game called tringo really....do you actually get this way in RL over trivial games? Please take a vacation or smell the roses if you do...way too much drama and fighting over the little things in life...and really it is a little thing...

would you risk your life for it?
would your spend your life on it?

If it isnt worth your life, then it is a small thing

Leakage from SL -> Teen Grid

Diapers with elastic could have prevented leakage

Cristiano, I think you have some valid input. Please hear me out.


Were not fervent until I was ganged up on. Before then, it was inquiry into a variety of issues of which there were unknowns.


I would counter and say that the ganging up made it a big issue because I will fight back when I'm slandered of being "just jealous" or "exploiting" residents.


Was an alarmed inquiry at first, not making any accusations, but providing a variety of possibilities. When cornered and ganged up on, it became defensive.



This is valid, absolutely. And so is wanting fairness for content creators.

Had this thread not devolved into a "me too" barrage against my reputation and intentions, perhaps we could have had a mature debate about where the line should be drawn between the two.

keep in mind that some of our great scripters are under 18 they just do what they do where ever they go

Fairness for content creators. It's a simple thing.

coco

Things are fair. We are given the same tools as everyone else. There was a thread asking for donations. I saw it, but I was too lazy to donate anything. Anyone who didn't see it, too bad for them.

It is a simple thing.

Right, Lo, I agree. (Though I think they need to make a little more effort to get the word out, on this and on similar things.)

coco

Yeah, LL definitely needs to get more acquainted with their mass email system.

My thoughts:

As much as *I* don't play Slingo Tringo Bingo Bango Bongo or Thongo, it still remains that Tringo *IS* the most popular game in SL - look on the events, or even the forum threads on the subject.

It's also a pretty good example of what can be done in SL (its own RL sale story also shows the potential of SL for more than goofing off).

So I guess its a good choice to zap over there... by a Linden (mystery solved as to how).. I wouldn't be suprised if there were a few Xylor Mahjong tables on there..

Take the best of SL and put it over there as linden examples.. cool idea.

IMO - the TOS says the L$ is worthless.. so its about as gambling as playing snap or monopoly. You *can* sell it for money, but hell I can sell a deck of Tragic The Slathering for money too (this one is purely my opinon -- everyone has a stance on the value of SL's currency).

If *I* as a content creator didn't get something over on the teen grid - meh - maybe the stuff I make wasn't 'teen friendly' enough.. I'm not about to get miffed because someone elses creation was....

And for the record, I f*cking hate Tringo... but I can still admire a cool creation.

Siggy.


Oh, and slander is spoken, libel is written... just a pet peeve of mine.